I gotta agree, it's more the lack of treatment/understanding that's the problem here. If someone took someone to a *legitimate* doctor, who gave advise that didn't work, would we still blame the parents? Similarly you're able to make judgment calls - if an option for treatment were given that came with risk, yet the parents didn't see the risk as acceptable, would we still blame the parents?

This is natural selection at its finest. The weak/stupid get killed off thus don't get a change to propagate their seeds of stupidity throughout humanity.

Btw, while the baby was slowly, painfully dying from a completely curable rash (and the baby could have been saved even on the day that it died), the mother was in India. She got sick and went straight to a medical doctor. GG.

Did you know: if homeopathy was real, it would basically undo everything we have learned about the human body.

This is natural selection at its finest. The weak/stupid get killed off thus don't get a change to propagate their seeds of stupidity throughout humanity.

Wrong. This would have been natural selection if the parents died before they had a chance to breed. Unfortunately, a baby was murdered by idiots.

Choosing homeopathy to treat someone in your care isn't just a bad choice or outcome Raven - it's obviously criminal. I hope you're just playing devils advocate here.

BH: the child shares the parent's genes so natural selection applies I
think? Being unable to care for your children into maturity snips your line from the gene pool yeh?

last edited by Hogfather at 15:58:03 06/Jun/09

Yeh, I was just trying to point out that it's a shame that the gene pool didn't get cut BEFORE the baby was born :/

There's really no excuse for this. I stay the hell away from doctors as a rule, but sometimes you gotta bring out the big guns.

omg! Are you saying that someone should have stabbed the mother when the baby was in her womb? you are a monster.

How many people a year does modern medicene kill ? or even just result in worse outcomes ?

Accidents happen even when you are in best hospital with the best doctor with the best gear.

*edit* example ... A kid at Nudgee goes to the doctor complaining of flu like symptoms, 2 days later they were dead.

last edited by Obes at 16:58:06 06/Jun/09

You're an idiot who doesn't believe in science, and therefore the terrorists are winning.

How many people a year does modern medicene kill ?

A f***load less than it saves.

I believe in science.

I am not sure Doctors do, they believe in the latest marketing package sent to them by the pfizer or whoever (their research is has frequently been questionable). Modern medicene is mainly marketing and big business and people proclaiming that they have all the answers... They are almost gods you know.

And as you have said in the past 70% if not more patients could be treated by laying on hands and plesant thoughts. We spend bucket every year saving individuals at great cost, frequently with poor 5 or 10 year outcomes.

More people every year are "saved" by garbage men, plumbers and sparkies then doctors will save in a life time.
Doctors' solution to cholera outbreaks in London ? ... masks and sulphur, effect nothing
Engineers' solution ? ... modern sewage, effect problem solved.

And seatbelts save lives... but you're just derailing the thread in a most spectacular way by erecting the flimsiest of strawmen attempting to draw attention away from the key issue - that homeopathy or other natural healing techniques are no match for actual medical care and, in TWO THOUSAND AND NINE, still responsible for kids dying because their parents want to believe in magic

Doctors' solution to cholera outbreaks in London ? ... masks and sulphur, effect nothing
Engineers' solution ? ... modern sewage, effect problem solved.

Actually, the London Sewer Systems was a result of the research performed by Dr. John Snow. The engineer Joseph Bazalgette was simply the Director of the Board of Public Works at the time. Incredible engineer yes, but he simply built what he was told to built...he didn't cure cholera.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1954/strawmanmotivational.jpg

last edited by exo at 17:30:19 06/Jun/09

Sorry trog 1 death proves nothing and that's the basis of your proof.

ps. I think homeopathy is s***. But your argument against it is as pathetic.

I also think blind faith in "modern medicene" is dangerous. Because what you seem to be incapable of understanding is a percentage of what we consider good modern medicene now in 50 to 100 years will appear backward pseudo-medicene.

cheers thermite. was a good laugh.

Actually, the London Sewer Systems was a result of the research performed by Dr. John Snow.

And he was thoroughly poo poo'd by the medical establishment of the time. Infact even after some guy at or around the time discovered bacteria they ignored it for 30 years!

The sewer system actually was actually put in because of the smell and that this smell was related to "air borne" cholera.

f

last edited by Hashy at 19:19:53 06/Jun/09

I also think blind faith in "modern medicene" is dangerous. Because what you seem to be incapable of understanding is a percentage of what we consider good modern medicene now in 50 to 100 years will appear backward pseudo-medicene.

Surely you can see something like homeopathy hasn't made any advances in the 200 years or so it has been around . There is no better form of it to compare to the original remedies, it sucks as much now as it did all that time ago.

Conventional medicine on the other hand is constantly improving/changing. Something that was cutting edge a decade ago is now commonplace and probably improved on significantly. I think the fact that medicine has improved so much in the past 100 years that medicine back then seems to us almost like 'pseudo-science' isn't such a bad thing. If the same happens again in the next hundred years that would be awesome, think of how powerful the medicine will be then?

I agree that we shouldn't have blind faith in modern medicine but the people who think all modern medicine is evil are equally dumb.

last edited by tominator at 17:53:24 06/Jun/09

Haha f***ing what

It's called Argyria.

Aside from making you look stupid, it doesn't have adverse side effects. Kind of like Homeopathy!

Sorry trog 1 death proves nothing and that's the basis of your proof.

What is trog trying to prove??? The facts is that a baby died because parents chose to use pseudoscience instead of medical science. One baby's death at the hands of pseudoscience is intolerable, compared to a baby's death at the hands of modern medicine. Fortunately the courts clearly agree with this.

ps. I think homeopathy is s***. But your argument against it is as pathetic.

Again, what the hell are you on about? What argument is pathetic? The argument against homeopathy is that it did not cure a baby's disease. Here is where you really need to pay attention, Obes: medicine is based on the best scientific knowledge of how the body works. Homeopathy is based on bulls***. There is no plausible theory why homeopathy should have any reason to work. There are scientific reasons why medicine should work, and it does, most of the time. One baby's death at the hands of pseudoscience is proof enough that it should be banned completely.

I also think blind faith in "modern medicene" is dangerous. Because what you seem to be incapable of understanding is a percentage of what we consider good modern medicene now in 50 to 100 years will appear backward pseudo-medicene.

Obes, what we can say about modern medicine is that it is the best that science can offer right now. It never pretends to be perfect, and doctors certainly never pretend to know all the answers to things.

It never pretends to be perfect, and doctors certainly never pretend to know all the answers to things.

except for house

attn: goatse sitll funny
teteehehehe

last edited by Hashy at 19:19:36 06/Jun/09

I also think blind faith in "modern medicene" is dangerous.

You really have become old and retarded.

Because what you seem to be incapable of understanding is a percentage of what we consider good modern medicene now in 50 to 100 years will appear backward pseudo-medicene.

No. It would be considered superseded science.

wow.....what a crock....
has to be mind over matter for most cases..

disgusting that the baby died over some hippy s***......

meh

last edited by Dazhel at 19:25:54 06/Jun/09

Obes really is a humongous troll. This is really blatant, just stop responding to his drivel.

He doesn't even profess a belief in homeopathy - he just wants to cause a stir an have someone to argue with. It's quite pathetic really.

Obes really is a humongous troll. This is really blatant, just stop responding to his drivel.

He doesn't even profess a belief in homeopathy - he just wants to cause a stir an have someone to argue with. It's quite pathetic really.

I tend to concur.

No, Trog's arguement is a person died because of a failed treatment therefore all alternative therapies are bad!!!!

Its a stupid arguement.

It would be considered superseded science.

Like doctors perscribing tobacco ?
Or using narcotics like laudnem to stop teething babies crying ?

I am simply saying any treatment modern, ancient or alternative can be wrong.
You are as big a moron as the parents in this story if you don't question the diagnosis and treatment. If they treat you for flu and send you home, then you start getting a rash, get the f*** to hospital don't think "the doctor said its just flu".

ie. alternative treatments are not problem. Morons are.

ps. I am semi baiting billy and trog because they seem to be believers of the doctors are gods line.

Doctors are fallible obviously Obes. But if you use an alternative treatment in place of established medicine for a serious ailment you are a f***ing lunatic.

Triple that if you do it to your kids. I'm sure if you had a serious problem you'd be lining up for your little slice of God like everyone else Obes.

Haha I just realized that I say obes in my head like Newman..

last edited by Hogfather at 08:14:21 07/Jun/09

man, don't blame homeopathy
the mum was obviously f***ed in the head

take homeopathy out of the equation and she probably would have killed her child with something else

personally i don't mind placebo treatments, provided they're prescribed by someone who knows they're placebos...

Sorry trog 1 death proves nothing and that's the basis of your proof.

And yet in your example you had 1 kid die from nudgee...you also failed to mention what he died from.

You also failed to mention that homeopathy didnt save him....

What the hell are you arguing obes? :) Im inclined to agree with the others and say your are on a fishing expedition

Like doctors perscribing tobacco ?
Or using narcotics like laudnem to stop teething babies crying ?

Both seemed to work, now we know they are bad. The difference is generally medical medicines have double blind studies and what not to see if they actually do help. Nutter snake oils do not get tested. They find some other nutter who said it works and have them write a testimony.

Again, it was the lack of something that killed the girl, not the presence (stupid parents not counted)

Again, your point is obscure and inane.

What are you saying - what point are you trying to make? Is this a backwards attempt to suggest that homeopathy is anything but ludicrous? That it only works when accompanied by traditional medicine?

No, I am saying that the act of having the homoeopathy wasn't what killed her. It was the lack of having appropriate medicine that caused her to go into shock and die.

The issue of homoeopathy isn't one I am about to get into a discussion about. Some people believe in it, some don't. I personally don't use it but if I would it would be rescue remedy and that's it. If it is all hocus pocus then that's fine and dandy.

But you can't claim that it is diluted water and then also claim it has the ability to kill within the same sentence.

The choice made by the parents not to go with further and more appropriate treatment is what lead to her death

But you can't claim that it is diluted water and then also claim it has the ability to kill within the same sentence.

The choice made by the parents not to go with further and more appropriate treatment is what lead to her death

Homeopathy encompasses a philosophy and world view that often involves a rejection of modern medicine. The father who was a recognised and accredited snake oil salesman homeopath obviously agreed with this defintion.

They used homeopathy instead of more regular therapies, therefore the death is intrinsically tied to this choice of treatment. There is a clear cause and effect relationship - the parent's mistaken belief that homeopathy was a suitable primary treatment killed the kid.

No, I am saying that the act of having the homoeopathy wasn't what killed her

But surely it is responsible for the parents believing it would work as effectivly as modern medicine? Its not the only thing at fault as obviously the parents are as well but it certainly is a contributing factor.

My guess is that you know something linked to homoeopathy and might be biased on the issue? :)

Don't confuse me trying to get the blame placed where it belongs as me trying to defend homoeopathy.

I simply don't think it is right to claim that homoeopathy is what killed this girl.

Homeopathy couldnt have killed the child because Homeopathic Medicines have No side effects, in fact they have no effect at all.

Kat - Directly, no it didn't kill her. You're just splitting hairs though, as homeopathy kills people simply because they believe it works. As long as homeopathy maintains credibility deaths like this will continue to happen.

I simply don't think it is right to claim that homoeopathy is what killed this girl.

I don't see what the problem is, sounds like a really stupid point of semantics?

The registered homeopath in question decided that his treatments were sufficient. The kid died as a result.

Homeopathy should be held up to much more rigorous falsification and review, and its practitioners properly held to account for their professional advice.

last edited by Hogfather at 14:16:30 07/Jun/09

Yes, but we aren't talking about a tumor being treated with apple juice here. This was something that could easily be assessed as not having it's desired effect. No one needed to wait 4 months until the next scan to see if there was any shrinkage. The child was in pain and it was an easily treated condition. Any fool could look at her and say 'It's not working, she needs something else'.
Therefore I think the blame needs to be placed on the parents for not using common sense in dealing with their child's problem.

I will happily admit that part of homoeopathy is a mindset and that the mindset of the parents was a contributing factor.

But the witchhunt trog has started is misinformed and I don't agree with it.

I will happily admit that part of homoeopathy is a mindset and that the mindset of the parents was a contributing factor.

But the witchhunt trog has started is misinformed and I don't agree with it.

Contributing factor? That's a really weak cop out.

IMO homeopathy should be banned from commercial practice, or at least restricted from performing acute care.

Again, your point is obscure and inane.

No its not. You are just stupid...

Trog posted this thread and specifically tried to tie alternative health care including chiro into this article. And that somehow this was a proof that all and or any alternative health care was bad and caused deaths. He accused me of straw manning ... wtf he is straw manning any health care other then mainstream western medicene. With a single death that he wants to blame on the magic water drinkers instead of moronic parents. Deaths happen in modern medicene too! zomg!

The underlying intent of his post as I see it, is western GP based medicene is the only legitimate one and its always right etc etc. If it isn't then he should edit his first post and remove the references to chiros etc cos they have f*** all to do with the article.

You're a complete twit Obes.

The underlying intent of his post as I see it, is western GP based medicene is the only legitimate one and its always right etc etc. If it isn't then he should edit his first post and remove the references to chiros etc cos they have f*** all to do with the article.

That's not the point at all - that's your own stupid twist on it, probably designed to elicit this respose. Who knows with you when you admit to being a great big f***ing troll?

On the off chance that you actually are interested, the point is that treatments that demonstrably do NOTHING should not be able to be sold to people on the pretence that they work. I don't care where remedies come from, its EASY to prove if they work, and once proven to have a non-placebo effect they can be sold as valid treatments.

Is that so hard for you to understand? Are you that obtuse?

Based on what though?
Because there have been a few deaths due to negligence?
Because that never occurs with 'proper' medicine?

Force everyone into one form of treatment because it's what you believe in? There are lots of professionals who believe in different approaches. How do you figure out which are the smart professionals and which aren't? How do we know one form of medicine is better than that AND another?

Don't get me wrong, I don't use homoeopathy and I don't intend to turn to it should someone in my family get sick. But I won't always turn to Dr prescribed medicine either. And to say that anyone who doesn't go to their Dr for everything is wrong isn't the way to go in my view.

Western Medicine is based on Trials and continuous scientific testing.
Alternative Medicine is Faith Based Medicine.

I don't agree FaceMan. I think that alternative medicines can complement western medicine. I don't think we should ever get to the point where we are left with only one choice.

You can't save morons from themselves and I don't think punishing everyone is the answer

Based on what though?
Because there have been a few deaths due to negligence?
Because that never occurs with 'proper' medicine?

No, no, no.

Force everyone into one form of treatment because it's what you believe in? There are lots of professionals who believe in different approaches. How do you figure out which are the smart professionals and which aren't? How do we know one form of medicine is better than that AND another?

No, no, no. You're being subjective and qualitative when you should approach it from a quantative and objective perspective.

Its super easy to test if treatments work. You take a big group of sufferers, and you divide them in two. One group gets the real treatment, the other group gets a placebo.

You measure the results, rinse and repeat until you have a sound conclusion.

This can be applied to herbalism, homeopathy, crystal healing, whatever. The simple fact is that homeopathy has failed dismally to be able to produce good results under double blind trials.

If you want to test if "complementary" therapy works then this can also be tested using double blinds.

For this reason - the fact that it demonstrably doesn't work - homeopathy shouldn't be permitted to be practiced as acute therapy.

last edited by Hogfather at 14:46:22 07/Jun/09

And to say that anyone who doesn't go to their Dr for everything is wrong isn't the way to go in my view.

Except this discussion isn't about that at all. That was Obes' strawman argument.

in light of the chiropractic stuff

So hogfather, explain what purpose that phrase serve other then to try and straw man (since that's trog's phrase of the day) alternative health care ?

One group gets the real treatment, the other group gets a placebo.

They have done studies that prove that placebo is as effective as medicene in some treatments. ie. They broke patients into 4 groups:
a- getting medicene, told it was medicene
b- getting medicene, told it was placebo
c- getting placebo, told it was medicene
d- getting placebo, told it was placebo

Groups b and c faired about the same. So for some conditions any treatment that makes the patient feel better is as good as an medicene.

homeopathy shouldn't be permitted to be practiced as acute therapy.

I'd agree, except I am a bit sick of do-gooder people constantly telling people what they can and can't do. eg. the Chaser's war ... don't like it don't watch but hey keep making it people want it. (That said they shouldn't get medicare provider numbers, f*** spending my dollars on it)
If they want to believe in it great whatever, I think it's important science atleast looks at the whackos prove it doesn't work ... incase one of these wackos is on to something

"But think of the children" ... meh human's are not an endangered species.

Hogfather, I have to admit I got the same spin from trogs post as Obes.
The comment about Chiro and then this

Pretty tragic story but hopefully it gets some more coverage in the press so next time little kids don't have to die because of idiotic parents that believe in bulls***.

To me seems like this thread was made to some how inform the general qgl public that alternative medicines are evil and should be stopped - even if they weren't all mentioned.

This is a pretty cool homoeopathy site :)

Groups b and c faired about the same. So for some conditions any treatment that makes the patient feel better is as good as an medicene.

Except what really matters in your study is the performance of Group A. If the results for Groups B, C, or D were better than Group A's results, the medicine is no more effective than a placebo. Perhaps you need a copy of this:
http://i41.tinypic.com/2wfqzvt.png

Homeopathy killed my father, and raped my mother.

So hogfather, explain what purpose that phrase serve other then to try and straw man (since that's trog's phrase of the day) alternative health care ?

Huh? Since when did I answer for trog? Although, if I get to nuke some of you f***ers I might be interested ...

They have done studies that prove that placebo is as effective as medicene in some treatments. ie. They broke patients into 4 groups:
a- getting medicene, told it was medicene
b- getting medicene, told it was placebo
c- getting placebo, told it was medicene
d- getting placebo, told it was placebo

Groups b and c faired about the same. So for some conditions any treatment that makes the patient feel better is as good as an medicene.

And how awesome is it that they did this? They continually evaluate the s*** out of treatments and even the effect of placebos themselves.

I just want the same rigor applied to alll treatments, traditional or alternative. Remember that expensive medical trials are as much about proving efficacy as eliminating risk, so that people aren't signed up to useless treatments that waste time and money.

I'm a sufferer - I would LOVE for the ancient art of navel gazing to be recognised as an awesome treatment. I just don't get why without any sort of regulatory intervention someone can sell people water as medicine.

Seriously, what the f***?

last edited by Hogfather at 15:34:02 07/Jun/09

Hogfather, I don't disagree that there should be accountability across all practitioners. The problems lies with who gets to say what is legit or not and what is good enough. It's a can of worms I am not willing to open because I don't agree that western medical practitioners have the ability to not let their fragile little egos get in the way.


last edited by Kat at 15:45:32 07/Jun/09

Its spelt Medicine

Hogfather, I don't disagree that there should be accountability across all practitioners. The problems lies with who gets to say what is legit or not and what is good enough. It's a can of worms I am not willing to open because I don't agree that western medical practitioners have the ability to not let their fragile little egos getting in the way.

That's nice and objective of you! I think if you spend as much time and effort learning your profession as a basic MD does you are entitled to a little ego. What did you achieve in this life again?

Despite all the money in the alternative health industry there is (un)surprisingly little will to fund proper studies into whether the stuff actually works. Its a bit like that million dollar psychic prize.

I would imagine that if they were subject to proper evaluation almost all natural therapists would have to shut down or very significantly reduce their claims.

So Kat, I'm kind of lost here. Do you believe in quackery, not believe in quackery, hate western medicine or are you just here to argue regardless?

last edited by Syco at 15:54:11 07/Jun/09

That's nice and objective of you! I think if you spend as much time and effort learning your profession as a basic MD does you are entitled to a little ego. What did you achieve in this life again?

Exactly, they are taught in a very specific form of treatment. Very rarely would you have a professional knowledged in a wide range of medicines. So just because they know all about one treatment doesn't mean that they know everything and this is where my issue lies.

Syco, I use alternative treatments. I also use modern western medicine. I think they complement each other. I had all three of my children at home, I am the queen of quackery (according to most people - because obviously I had a home birth because I am anti medicine. It has nothing to do with simply being pro home birth)

Syco, I use alternative treatments. I also use modern western medicine. I think they complement each other. I had all three of my children at home, I am the queen of quackery (according to most people - because obviously I had a home birth because I am anti medicine. It has nothing to do with simply being pro home birth)

Ahh, meh, I don't think home birthing is bad unless you're in some remote area with no real medical staff nearby.

Regardless the kid in the story died due to a false belief that drinking water would cure their child. The blind belief in homoeopathy was a direct cause in the childs death. It was something so stupidly easily treatable by real medicine.

Too Bad you didn't have Breach Cord Prolapse, then see what you think about home births and 'all natural/alternative medicines'.

also:

But you can't claim that it is diluted water and then also claim it has the ability to kill within the same sentence.

Yes, I can, because water can also kill you if ingested in large enough quantities.

Now take something that's a little more toxic.

Let's also consider that each individual can handle differing levels of differing toxic substances in the body, and you have another problem with homeopathic medicine.

As for Doctors think they're 'gods' and have massive 'egos'... oh please; come work with me for a day and see if you still believe that.
Some doctors may think they are the best thing walking the planet, the vast majority, do not.

Exactly, they are taught in a very specific form of treatment. Very rarely would you have a professional knowledged in a wide range of medicines. So just because they know all about one treatment doesn't mean that they know everything and this is where my issue lies.

they are trained in treatments that have scientifically proven medicinal qualities and they have scientifically proven results!

they even use a bunch of different treatments too. they have to go to a university where they learn a whole bunch of them! but wait, there's more. they even change and update their repertoire of treatments when new information becomes available. crazy huh.

edit - this is why i like medical doctors:

let's say homeopathy actually worked for curing superaids or something. if it turned out to be the best treatment for something, medical doctors would be forced to use it or they would be sued for malpractice or professional negligence (whatever it's called here), right? but you could hardly sue a homeopath for not curing your superaids because what rational person would believe they can cure superaids if there is no verifiable evidence of it ever having done so in the past.

modern medicine is far from perfect, and it should and will always be a work in progress. but it's a s***load better than any of the alternatives i've seen.

last edited by taggs at 16:32:20 07/Jun/09

Too Bad you didn't have Breach Cord Prolapse, then see what you think about home births and 'all natural/alternative medicines'.

Considering I had two breech births I am fully aware of the dangers of cord prolapse. Don't be a condescending f***.

I used an alternative to modern 'medicine' in relation to something where no one was actually sick and I get people treating me like a blind uneducated idiot.

I always thought Homeopathy fell under the umbrella alternative medicine. Alternative medicine is so ambiguous that eating lemons to get better could be considered part of it.

Exactly, they are taught in a very specific form of treatment. Very rarely would you have a professional knowledged in a wide range of medicines. So just because they know all about one treatment doesn't mean that they know everything and this is where my issue lies.

They don't know everything, its impossible to be that "knowledged". Most GPs and hospital doctors admit to me that I know more about MS than they do. They're quite frank and open about it and ask my opinion on treatment.

That's why there is a system of referrals and specialties.

The comparison to magic water couldn't be more frank to be honest. Who was the therapist in question to refer to when his homeopathy didn't work? He probably knew everything about it.

Hogfather: I believe that both have a place. I believe that there should be accountability. I just don't believe that it is right to demand that an alternative medicine should be compared to and judged along side modern medicine. They are different treatments and should be treated as such.

When you have a professional educated in a certain field, someone else offering similar treatment will threaten them and what the stand for. You won't find many who can objectively judge the alternative.

You won't find many who can objectively judge the alternative.

you couldn't be more wrong. if it turned out that an alternative medicine was actually an effective treatment for something (especially something high profile) there would be so many goddamn researchers and academics around the world who would jump on it and publish the research to make a name for themselves.

Maybe, but science can judge the f*** out of alternative objectively.

Oh hey check it out, homeopathy does jack when compared to the control! Well that's settled that's all go take our tablets now that have been proven to do something other than re-hydrate us.

edit:I just realised that kathleen is one of those "I'm a mother so I know best" mothers.

last edited by greazy at 16:30:39 07/Jun/09

GPs can make mistakes They arent Specialists.
They see you for 15 mins and have to make an assessment based on what you tell them. I had a friend who went to a Naturopath because she was always getting sick and after a blood test/analysis he told her she had Mercury leaking from her Dental Fillings so she spent $1500 getting them replaced and guess what - she still kept getting colds etc.

If your Local GP cant help you with your Medical Problems ask for a referral to see a Specialist. Dont go to an Alternative Medicine Shop and think you are going to get better medical care than from your GP.

People that believe in Homeopathy are also likely to not Vaccinate their kids or to use Homeopathic Vaccinations which of course have NO side Effects. No Effect at all. The rise in Alternative Medicine has also seen a rise in the old Whooping Cough Measles and other nastys that were almost wiped out 20 years ago.

These Quacks are not only putting their patients kids at risk but are putting at risk any child that comes in contact with these non-vaccinated kids.
Its irresponsible and should be illegal.

No better than Psychics.

LOL at Randi eating the box of Homeopathic sleeping tablets
Wish he'd do a tour here.

Is there anyone in this thread who is actually arguing that homeopathy actually works? I don't think so.

Dont go to an Alternative Medicine Shop and think you are going to get better medical care than from your GP.

In some cases they can give the same care or better and without resorting to drugs. They have their place and they can give proper care. You will always have hack jobs (just look at Dr Patel) doesn't matter if it is modern or alternative

In some cases they can give the same care or better and without resorting to drugs.

Name some, Give a medical condition and name the natural process that is proven to be better then the accepted medical treatment.

Hypochondria !

Name some, Give a medical condition and name the natural process that is proven to be better then the accepted medical treatment.

For that matter name one that is demonstrated to be as good, or better than nothing at all..

Kat sure is getting her retarded on in this thread.

Acupuncture for sinus issues instead of antibiotics is one that springs to mind.

What sort of 'sinus issues' you f***ing retard?

ummm sinusitis?

While Acupuncture may be an alternate form of medicine, it isn't actually covered by the homeopathy umbrella so your comparison is a moot point.

Accupuncture is Nonsense too.

Kat: remember that thread about pregnancy where you were wrong? This is the exact same thing here.

a good f***in hot chilli meal is good for sinusitis, but that don't mean its medical

mmm sinusitis?

Acute sinusitis? Chronic sinusitis?
That caused by bacteria, viral, fungal infection?

I seriously doubt that acute sinusitis caused by bacterial infection is better treated by acupuncture then antibiotics.

As for chronic sinusitis with an unknown cause, does acupuncture actually do a better job then whatever is available or does it simply do the same? Does it outperform the placebo affect?

Probably not.


edit: Don't get me wrong, acupuncture is probably awesome for a massage though.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 19:58:03 07/Jun/09

I admit it.

I am homeophobic.

I use naturopathy for liver and gut complaints. It worked ok for my allergies. But some more serious illnesses require pharmacological responses.

Naturopathy revolves around maintaining a balance in the body's core, and reducing exposure to toxins. But that cannot always be avoided.

f*** off infi, we already have one retard in this thread and let me tell you one is enough.

p.s its kat.

Hey take whatever s*** makes you feel better...

and reducing exposure to toxins

Wow, I think those naturopaths are on to something here!

Toxins include pharmaceuticals, genius.

The killers here are the parents, not homeopathy. It was clear what the illness was and how to treat it safely, quickly, and effectively, and they ignored that to use water-medicine. Even if they wanted to try their water-medicine first they should have seen it wasn't working and then tried a different approach.

The parents could have been brain surgeons and opted for brain surgery to cure the girl and it wouldnt work. It wouldn't be brain surgery that killed her, just the same stupid decision to ignore the friggin obvious of how to help their daughter. They were negligent douchebags plain and simple.

I'm pretty open minded and believe it's everyones right to choose their own form of treatment if they are able to make an informed decision. Children aren't able to make informed choices on their own treatment so in this country their first treatment should always be medical science based. If it doesn't work or has undesired side effects, that is when you start looking at other options.

This debate going on in this thread is way to generalised and will rage on forever. Such unsolveable layered points include;

1) Differing opinions from different MD's on what is the cause and what's the best and safest method of treatment/surgery. In this case it was plain and simple but get into more complex cases/diseases/cancers and professional medical opinions differ greatly.

2) Conditions where modern medicine may help one aspect but create strong adverse side effects which are worse than the original condition and they have no other options for you.

3) Pharmaceutical companies cannot patent compounds that they don't invent. This means they have no interest in pursuing natural sources of medicines and it is actually adverse to their business to do so.


I don't think there is ever one right answer for anything without considering all possible options. All you can do is weigh up all the options and when all the research, evidence, results, and pros and cons are compared and make an informed decision. Problem occurs when you have an idiot making the decision such as this case.

last edited by Le Cock at 00:37:15 08/Jun/09

I use naturopathy for liver and gut complaints. It worked ok for my allergies. But some more serious illnesses require pharmacological responses.

Naturopathy revolves around maintaining a balance in the body's core, and reducing exposure to toxins. But that cannot always be avoided.

Big difference between eating sensibly and living a healthier lifestyle and paying $50 for a bottle of water.

The killers here are the parents, not homeopathy. It was clear what the illness was and how to treat it safely, quickly, and effectively, and they ignored that to use water-medicine. Even if they wanted to try their water-medicine first they should have seen it wasn't working and then tried a different approach.

Number 3 here provides a pretty good argument. It's their blind faith in quackery that killed the kid. They didn't decide to kill it, they decided to believe in something stupid and that contributed to the child's healthcare to be lacking and thus it's untimely death.

last edited by Syco at 00:37:19 08/Jun/09

http://www.hpathy.com/Status/homeopathy-India.asp
I think they are both from India.
Homeopathy has a rich history in India.
Its estimated that there are over 250 000 homeopaths in India.

Hey Kat maybe you should move to India ?
Like curries ?

Oh and just for the record I don't believe in Homeopathy, but I do believe in freedom of choice as long as it's limited to only for yourself.

Number 3 here provides a pretty good argument. It's their blind faith in quackery that killed the kid. They didn't decide to kill it, they decided to believe in something stupid and that contributed to the child's healthcare to be lacking and thus it's untimely death.

I totally agree with you. The bad thinking of the parents did cause the death - that's what I'm saying.

There is so much f***ing retardedness going on in this thread I don't know where to start.

The fact that we're even having this debate goes to show why "alternative medicines" shouldn't be labeled "medicines" and sold in chemists next to real drugs.

Kat and Obes, you both show a gross misunderstanding of the fundamentals of science.

Homeopathy killed the baby because it makes stupid people think that it's a viable alternative to science based medicine. I have already addressed why it is different when science based medicine goes wrong.

Stupid people will find a way of harming themselves no matter what is or isn't available. If you put a band-aid/cast a spell/use homeopathy on a severed arm it aint gonna do s*** and you're a deadset moron for trying it.

The fact that we're even having this debate goes to show why "alternative medicines" shouldn't be labeled "medicines" and sold in chemists next to real drugs.

Grouping homeopathy under a blanket term of 'alternative medicines' is way too broad.

How do you define 'alternative medicine' and 'real drugs'? Anything sold in a pharmacy has been approved by the TGA which is very strict - it's the same regulator that approves pharmaceutical drugs.

Australia is the most regulated country in the world in regards to items sold in capsules/tablets in pharmacies, or make therapeutic claims. Anything with an AUST L code (any non-prescription product - look on the front of it) has been proven to be safe (through science) and the claims you can make for the item are all regulated to allign with the scientific studies so you can't overstate them. More powerful medicines have an AUST R code.

I would rather eat fruit than purchase man-made vitamin C tablets. However if I had a chest infection I would want to use anti-biotics. I like having the choice.

I have a medical condition that I tried for many years to treat through 'modern science' and going to many specialists doctors. The best modern science medicines made me nauseas, dizzy, unable to concentrate, infertile, my hair fell out, and risk of cancer. After researching all my options I discovered a special plant extract that was anecdotally and scientifically proven to help my condition with no neg sides. I started using it instead of 'modern science drugs' and felt much much much better and had no nasty side effects. What's more, my blood tests showed that the plant extract was indeed having big positive effects in my body. Medical proof that it works like it said.

The above mentioned plant extract is available in any other country in the world but not Australia because it hasn't been put on the AUST L list. This is the same for many 'natural medicines' in Australia - because you can't patent it no company will do the work required to list it ($50 000 and 2 years). It appears in both the British and US Pharmacopias and heavily used in other countries, yet in Australia it is an unapproved compound. Does this make it 'alternative' here but not overseas?

Just because something isn't made in a lab doesn't make it worthless or dangerous. There are scientists all over the world researching plants, animals, and enzymes and how they can be used to benefit human health. If a special enzyme is found in clams which helps reduce arthritis, are you being an alternative whacko if you eat clams every day to help your arthritis instead of having cortisol injections+tablets from your doctor (which have big detrimental side effects)? What if you use the specific clam enzyme which has been naturally extracted and available over the counter?

Homeopathy is a massive stretch and definitely seems like BS to me and it's my choice not to use it. There seems to be no scientific evidence to support Homeopathy doing anything at all. However I definitely don't agree with having it grouped with medicines from a natural origin, many of which are found in chemists next to 'the real drugs'. To even be in the chemist they have to be proven to be safe and the claims they make must be supported by scientific studies.

Particularly in Europe doctors will actually prescribe naturally derived products which you would put under the 'alternative medicine' blanket term. In Europe they are not alternative at all - they have been accepted by the medical community, but they haven't been here. Does that make them alternative or real drugs? Depends where you live.

Again, it's about freedom of choice and idiots will inevitably find a way to harm themselves. If you start outlawing and banning things it becomes a problem of where to draw the line and who draws that line, and what factors do you use to determine them.

How would you group a natural extract that cannot be patented and is unapproved in Australia yet is prescribed by doctors in Sweden?


last edited by Le Cock at 14:49:19 08/Jun/09

The killers here are the parents, not homeopathy.

I haven't time to read a lot of this yet (but f*** me, what are some of you people smoking?!), but this statement I disagree with - I can see why you might say this, but in this case the parent wasn't just some guy that believed it might help - he was a practicing homeopath. I'd give him props if he stuck to his guns on this homeopathy thing if it was his life at risk and he died - I'm a firm believer in people doing whatever they hell they want to their own bodies and I respect people that are willing to put their life at risk for their beliefs. But not others.

Note I'm not saying all natural medicine is bad, whatever Obes might have you believe. Clearly, eating oranges is going to stop you getting scurvy, just like taking some natural herbs and supplements will prevent or help treat other illnesses. But you're an idiot if you choose to replace actual proper medicine with natural remedies, and chances are if you keep doing it, you'll die because one day you'll get something that you need actual antibiotics or something to fix.

I'm a firm believer in people doing whatever they hell they want to their own bodies and I respect people that are willing to put their life at risk for their beliefs. But not others.

Note I'm not saying all natural medicine is bad, whatever Obes might have you believe. Clearly, eating oranges is going to stop you getting scurvy, just like taking some natural herbs and supplements will prevent or help treat other illnesses. But you're an idiot if you choose to replace actual proper medicine with natural remedies, and chances are if you keep doing it, you'll die because one day you'll get something that you need actual antibiotics or something to fix.

This is same thing I'm saying - agree with you 100%. It's all about the severity of the affliction and using common sense. There is no cure for being an idiot.

last edited by Le Cock at 15:04:26 08/Jun/09

Billy you show a poor understanding of life.

ps. we didn't discuss the fundementals of science, nor did we discuss how more then occasionally the scientific process is not applied to modern medical treatment of patients.

Or was a doctor telling me 15 years ago fish oils were useless and a good scotch was more beneficial, and now that same doctor telling me how good fish oils are and that I should take them, an example of the superior modern medical "scientific" processes.

Or was a doctor telling me 15 years ago fish oils were useless and a good scotch was more beneficial, and now that same doctor telling me how good fish oils are and that I should take them, an example of the superior modern medical "scientific" processes.

unless that doctor was talking out of their ass (which is entirely possible), i'd say it's probably a pretty good example of the scientific process where theories and treatments are updated in response to new information, wouldn't you?

Le Cock, I have no problem with scientifically proven methods. Alternative methods are usually deemed as alternative, not because tests haven't been done, but because lots of tests have shown they have no effect. You're example of how to ingest vitamin C are two methods based on science. Whether something is labeled as "alternative" here vs other countries is yet ANOTHER reason we shouldn't use the term, and let things like homeopathy use them. We should use science based medicines. That is my argument - I don't care if it's sold by a company or an old witch. If you walk into a chemist now you (should) expect them to sell you products that actually help you. Instead, you're faced with shelves and shelves of pseudoscience products that rip you off, and you can't tell which ones actually work and which ones don't.

ps. we didn't discuss the fundementals of science, nor did we discuss how more then occasionally the scientific process is not applied to modern medical treatment of patients.

You have shown your poor grasp of science through statements like this:

Or was a doctor telling me 15 years ago fish oils were useless and a good scotch was more beneficial, and now that same doctor telling me how good fish oils are and that I should take them, an example of the superior modern medical "scientific" processes.

I'm glad we didn't discuss it because I think all the s*** you would no doubt spout would make my head explode.

it appears teh trog family had an unpleasant dealing with alternate medicine some years ago

The killers here are the parents, not homeopathy

Actually technically it's both. Homotherapy + idiotic parents = the child died. Could have been avoided.

Billy: Oh ok cool. Yeah the confusion is the term 'alternative medicines'. Things should be listed as scientifically validated or not.

Exactly. The sheer volume of alternative treatments makes it hard to fathom which ones could possibly work for different ailments. For example, it is simply beyond logic that you could have 50 genuinely different remedies for the common cold and they all work.

Which is where we come back to the scientific method, testing and falsification.

I have no doubt that - especially herbal remedies - some natural therapies and medicines help to at least alleviate symptoms. A lot of it is based in traditional and eastern medicine which over a long time of trial and error has produced disciplines that conceivably produuce valid pharmacological results.

A good example is probably echinacea which is a traditional remedy which is becoming more mainstream and accepted.

But without proper testing and validation its all lumped together in a very suspect category.

More on this case from the sceptic's book of pooh-pooh:

A letter in the Sydney Morning Herald yesterday, from a dermatologist working in pediatrics, questions why parents are turning towards alternative medicine and reminds us that medicine could have saved 9 month old Gloria.

It's an interesting topic. I personally prefer to try and use natural remedies where possible (the less man-made drugs and chemicals in your body the better), but I know my limits and if/when I need to go to the doctor to get some drugs. Usually if/when I get a cold I'll up my dosage of vitamins and it clears up pretty quickly because I'm helping my body to get rid of the nasty by itself. But sometimes the cold will goto my chest and I then goto the doctor because I know it'll turn into bronchitis and my body just can't shake it by itself.

Also some scientifically proven medicines are starting to become ineffective because of overuse. An example is penicillin - when I was a kid I was sick and was on it for ages, it now has 0 effect on me. I also think modern medicine isn't great - I think it'll only be great when medications have 0 side effects and work every time.

Ultimately though I believe people should choose what works for them. Obviously if a situation is serious then you should go straight to the doctor and be willing to use any method necessary to fix up the serious problem straight away. If it's a mild problem, then use whatever method you like the most.

An example is penicillin - when I was a kid I was sick and was on it for ages, it now has 0 effect on me. I also think modern medicine isn't great - I think it'll only be great when medications have 0 side effects and work every time.

That's a pretty harsh critique, and this is from someone who has a chronic, incurable ailment. The number of diseases entirely eradicated by modern medicine is humongous.

If you were does with enough penicillin for your body to become resistant to it, then it probably saved your life. I wouldn't be down on it!

Consider things like cataracts - most of the people in the world who are blind are blind because they don't have access to western treatments. Polio, measles, smallpox, mumps - the list of killer diseases that have either been literally elininated or effectively don't exist in the west anymore is massive.

And people are now turning against vaccination of all things. WTF YOU STUPID FAGETS.

Consider the things that used to be a death sentence, and now are only life threateneing: kidney failure, heart disease, liver failure, the list goes on. f***ing brain tumors cut out by wizards with a knife! I don't see blackmore's releasing an organ donation supplement anytime soon.

People forget how f***ing amazing wesetern medicine is, and how much it continues to improve. We're so jaded and puffed up with ourselves that all we see are "toxic drugs".

last edited by Hogfather at 09:15:38 09/Jun/09

Why do people seem to think that western researchers/doctors etc are ignoring or think they are above natural medicines? There's kind of a race going on these days to discover as many new potential drugs from nature as possible. Plenty of drugs already in use were first found in plants or microbes.
We aren't really at the stage yet where scientists can conjure up medicines from scratch to cure everything, they need to be guided or just plain use what is found in nature.

There's no money in natural medicine because you cannot patent it and get large subsidies from the government.

Yes - natural is not "alternative". Eating an orange to get vitamin C isn't alternative medicine. Prescribing someone a good night's sleep is not alternative medicine. Natural remedies can still have a science basis.

Again, this is why we need chemists to have a science based medicine policy. Non-science based remedies like acupuncture and homeopathy can be the next shop over.

I was listening to a podcast about the case mentioned in the OP, and they point out that when, say someone who is fighting terminal cancer, when they have exhausted all science based medical options for a treatment, they might turn to alternative treatments. Why didn't the parents do the same - when they tried and tried homeopathy with no effect - why didn't they turn to real medicine?

Why didn't the parents do the same - when they tried and tried homeopathy with no effect - why didn't they turn to real medicine?

Because they're douchebags. Common Sense dictates that you start with the highest probable successful treatment then work your way down the list if need be.

The parents are morons and would have found some way to kill their daughter be it homeopathy or buying her a motorcycle on her 16th birthday.

Southpark Season 4, Episode 6 – Cherokee Hair Tampons ;D

damn, after reading this thread i am so glad i don't have any wierd ailments that confound regular western medicine! i used to know a guy that did iridology & acupuncture & his ignorance of common human biology was always enough to put me off wacky alternatives. the whole infinitely diluted medicine dealie with homeopathy sounds so much like pure psychosomatic drivel to me.

Because they're douchebags. Common Sense dictates that you start with the highest probable successful treatment then work your way down the list if need be.

Also, because they (at least the father) were homeopaths

Health-related quality of life in a trial of acupuncture, sham acupuncture and conventional treatment for chronic sinusitis.

Stavem K, Røssberg E, Larsson PG.
Department of Pulmonary Medicine, Medical Division, Akershus University Hospital, Lørenskog, Norway. knut.stavem@klinmed.uio.no.
ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Acupuncture is commonly used to treat chronic sinusitis, though there is little documentation on the effect. This study presents the health-related quality of life (HRQoL) outcomes in a trial comparing traditional Chinese acupuncture, sham acupuncture, and conventional treatment for chronic sinusitis. FINDINGS: In a three-armed single blind randomized controlled study, we recruited 65 patients with symptoms of sinusitis >3 months and signs of sinusitis on computed tomography (CT). Patients were randomized to one of three study arms: (1) 2-4 weeks of medication with antibiotics, corticosteroids, 0.9% sodium chloride solution, and local decongestants (n = 21), (2) ten treatments with traditional Chinese acupuncture (n = 25), or (3) ten treatments with minimal acupuncture at non-acupoints (n = 19). Change in HRQoL was assessed over 12 weeks using the Chronic Sinusitis Survey (CSS) and Short form 36 (SF-36) questionnaires.In the study, we found only a non-significant difference on the CSS symptom scale between conventional medical therapy and traditional Chinese acupuncture. On the SF-36 scale role-physical the change was larger in the conventional group than in the sham group (p = 0.02), and on the mental health scale the change in the conventional therapy arm was larger than in the traditional Chinese acupuncture group (p = 0.03). There was no difference in effect on HRQoL on any scale between the sham and traditional Chinese acupuncture groups. CONCLUSION: There was no clear evidence of the superiority of one treatment over another on short-term HRQoL outcomes, although there was a statistically non-significant advantage of conventional therapy in a few dimensions.

There's no money in natural medicine because you cannot patent it and get large subsidies from the government.

Yeah, because companies selling omega-3 fish oil capsules, St. John's wort, echinacea all went bust. No wait, it's the other one where they make millions of dollars.

Nice one Fireman Sam - totally debunked Kat's pseudoscience.

There's no money in natural medicine because you cannot patent it and get large subsidies from the government.

Wait, so why do all these natural medicine companys exist if they don't make any money?

Whats with the people in this thread that try to justify homeopathy doesn't kill by blaming the parents. What the f*** seriously. Are you going to say that jumping out a tall building doesn't kill you because it is actually the ground at the bottom that kills you? f*** me.
If you actively pursue alternative medicine, you are expending the resources (time, money, motivation) that you need to get actual help.

Wait, so why do all these natural medicine companys exist if they don't make any money?

Are you suggesting natural medicine companies trade on the same market caps as Big Pharma?

Are you suggesting natural medicine companies trade on the same market caps as Big Pharma?

No, just that saying "there's no money to be made" is stupid. My local fish 'n' chips shop doesn't make as much as McDonalds, doesn't mean they don't make money.

Pretty sure that a lot of well known natural and alternative remedies are sold by the big drug companies anyway.

yeah im pretty sure the people who own bullivants are struggling

NOT

lol
this thread reminds me of people who say "I don't take panadol for headaches because when I get really sick I want the medicine to work"
I bet kat is one of them.

Meh, I don't usually take headache relief as it doesn't do anything for me. If I can't sleep it off I will usually take something though. With three kids it's not easy to just rest.

All my kids are vaccinated and I will happily go to the Dr should anyone in this house get sick.

All my kids are vaccinated

thank god. seriously it should be illegal for parents not to do this.

yer, i got an issue with parents who dont vaccinate.

weird thing is you can never tell when people are gonna be non vaccinators.

i also dont need headache relief, does nothing for me

Here’s a shocker for you: after a decade and 2.5 billion (with a b, folks) dollar spent, a government study shows that almost no alternative medicines worked.

Echinacea for colds. Ginkgo biloba for memory. Glucosamine and chondroitin for arthritis. Black cohosh for menopausal hot flashes. Saw palmetto for prostate problems. Shark cartilage for cancer. All proved no better than dummy pills in big studies funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. The lone exception: ginger capsules may help chemotherapy nausea.

So, they used actual scientific testing processes instead of anecdotes, and found that most of these simply don’t work. Like I said: shocker.

Let me be clear: I am not opposed to testing any so-called alternative medicines. A lot of our medicine today is based on herbs and such; aspirin comes from willow bark, for example, and ginger has been tested before for nausea and shown some promise. A lot of people comment on my blog when I talk about this stuff and call me closed-minded, which makes me chuckle ironically, since most of these people are so anti-science their minds are clamped tight. And in fact I want to test these techniques to separate what works from what doesn’t.

But I am decidedly against these techniques that have been tested and shown to be no better than placebos. This includes homeopathy, intercessory prayer, and the like. Chiropractic, which I dissed just today, may have some efficacy for some skeletal issues, but curing a toothache? C’mon.

My point: when the tests are done, and the technique is shown not to work as promised or even at all, then into the trash bin it goes. That’s science. That’s reality.

Of course, that’s if the tests are done correctly. According to the MSNBC article linked above, that wasn’t always the case. Not surprisingly, when the testers have some stake in the tests then science is out the window.

But even so, the studies have shown that most of these remedies don’t work. And will this change the minds of their advocates?

HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha! Oh man, sometimes I crack myself up.

This is just one more arrow in our quiver, but the alternative medicine believers will continue to move the targets around. Stay vigilant, and remember: people waste money, people get sick, and people die because of this antiscientific thinking. That’s why testing this, publicizing it, and fighting the misinformation is so important.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/06/10/alternative-medicine-you-misspelled-not/

This just appeared on slashdot - FDA Says Homeopathic Cure Can Cause Loss of Smell:

"The FDA has advised consumers to stop using Matrixx Initiatives' Zicam Cold Remedy nasal gel marketed over-the-counter as a cold remedy because it is associated with the loss of sense of smell (anosmia) that may be long-lasting or permanent. The FDA says about 130 consumers have reported a loss of smell after using the homeopathic cure containing zinc, an ingredient scientists say may damage nerves in the nose needed for smell and health officials say they have asked Matrixx executives to turn over more than 800 consumer complaints concerning lost smell that the company has on file

This just appeared on slashdot - FDA Says Homeopathic Cure Can Cause Loss of Smell:

"The FDA has advised consumers to stop using Matrixx Initiatives' Zicam Cold Remedy nasal gel marketed over-the-counter as a cold remedy because it is associated with the loss of sense of smell (anosmia) that may be long-lasting or permanent. The FDA says about 130 consumers have reported a loss of smell after using the homeopathic cure containing zinc, an ingredient scientists say may damage nerves in the nose needed for smell and health officials say they have asked Matrixx executives to turn over more than 800 consumer complaints concerning lost smell that the company has on file

Normally with all this alternative medicine bs that people use, it doesn't really bother me as long as they turn to real medicine when their airy-fairy methods don't work (unlike previously mentioned manslaughter father). But this just goes to show that we shouldn't even be using something that hasn't be scientifically proven, because how else do we know it won't f*** us up?! I like my sense of smell tyvm!

Insert inane argument here. How about something like, "Conventional medicines sometimes hurt people too!"

Headache relief doesn't work for you Kat because you aren't having headaches, you are having attention whore episodes disguised as headaches. You have been doing them for so long that you're now effectively lying to yourself. Panadol doesn't help that.

In America anything can be put on the shelf and then has to be proven to be unsafe for it to be taken off. In Australia it must be proved safe before it can be sold.

In America anything can be put on the shelf and then has to be proven to be unsafe for it to be taken off. In Australia it must be proved safe before it can be sold.

In the US I believe it can't be labeled as a 'drug' (that's why this thing snuck though, it was actually a drug and they tried to pass it off as a homeopathic remedy - see the slashdot comments for more)

The majority of headaches are caused by Dehydration.
Try some Homeopathic Water Hydration medicine.

In America anything can be put on the shelf and then has to be proven to be unsafe for it to be taken off. In Australia it must be proved safe before it can be sold.

Can you be a little more specific? I find it hard to believe proper studies were done to show things like ear candles are safe. Are you talking about foods, "medicines" or what?

The guys from Peep Show on homeopathy:

The majority of headaches are caused by Dehydration.

This is true, and what's awesome is people with a headache go and have a couple panadol with a big glass of water and then think the pills fixed it!

Haha awesome vid btw trog.

last edited by Hogfather at 14:05:35 04/Jul/09

Try some Homeopathic Water Hydration medicine.

That's made from two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom right?

That's the one 3dee, and it's all natural!

wow fpot, I didn't see that until now.

Dihydromonoxide, like all chemicals, is bad for you. Read all about it!