In the wake of the Sniper Vs Spy Update for Team Fortress 2 that was released last week, Valve have let us know there's now a required update to address a number of issues discovered during the extensive play periods since the initial update release.

Please run hldsupdatetool to receive it. The specific changes include:

• The Ambassador now does full critical hits on headshots, instead of mini crits
• The Cloak & Dagger Dead Ringer now fully drains the cloak meter, even if the Spy leaves cloak early
• Fixed Spy disguise menu not being visible in HUD minimal mode
• Server log improvements:
• Added "player_extinguish" event for servers to log when a Pyro extinguishes flame with the airburst
• Fixed kill descriptions for Force-A-Nature & Sandman, so server logs can distinguish them
• Identified feign deaths in the events sent to server logs
• Fixed server crash related to the Jarate

So there you have it. Jump on and get the fixes applied asap so as to start covering people in jarred pee with renewed balance and vigour.

edit: Apparently it's the Dead Ringer that drains, not the Cloak and Dagger as Valve originally reported.

i am waiting for the trading of inventory start.... World of Team fortress

As i keep getting items that already have!

By the time this s*** gets implemented everyone will have everything?

The ambassador fix is pretty good, mini crits were worthless. but what does it mean by cloak and dagger s***? So the cloak and dagger drains while moving even if you're not cloaked?

Or does it mean you become uncloaked after it runs out, cause that would suck i loved the way when it ran out you were visible but still kinda hard to spot.

Not quite the fixes I was waiting for.
I still have no unlocks. I was top of the scores for 3 maps yesterday, I got MVP twice, I scored a bunch of spy and sniper achievements, I even got pyromancer. And nothing.
Haven't tried the spectator/idle overnight 'achievement'.

I've been leaving it running overnight, finally got the razorback (which is kinda lame that it takes the smg slot) so now all i need is dead ringer (yawn) and huntsman (woo).

huntsman is yawn

hunstman is awesome, you're just a nubcake if you think it sucks

Huntsman is pretty good as it lets you fire, get behind cover and still kill or seriously wound an enemy. However I don't need 5 of the f***ers. Think they would of thought this surprise weapons system out a bit more, or at least not taken out the ability to get weapons through achievements like before

The Cloak & Dagger now fully drains the cloak meter, even if the Spy leaves cloak early

Where did you get this info from? They didn't do anything to the Cloak & Dagger, they made this modification to the Dead Ringer. Check for yourself:

http://store.steampowered.com/news/2540/

i started my own server and left it running over night but i lost connection to the steam cloud, any idea on how to make sure it doesnt lose the connection ?

Just join an achievement_idle server, it's easier.

The Cloak & Dagger now fully drains the cloak meter, even if the Spy leaves cloak early

Where did you get this info from? They didn't do anything to the Cloak & Dagger, they made this modification to the Dead Ringer. Check for yourself:

http://store.steampowered.com/news/2540/

its from the HLDS server list announcement

The huntsman is spastic and a downgrade to the sniper rifle.

At the same time though, I can't stop using it! After a few hours of practice I'm pinning heaps of people to the wall.

It's s***, but it's fun and headshots are satisfying, pub is full of noobs anyway so you can still own with it.

its from the HLDS server list announcement

Well, after playing at lunch time, it's incorrect. The Cloak & Dagger hasn't changed. Should be fixed in the OP.

Yep. Dead ringer is the one you want trog.

Ta updated!

It's s***, but it's fun and headshots are satisfying, pub is full of noobs anyway so you can still own with it.

Yeah its heaps of fun to own people coming around corners with an arrow to their face. But yeah.. if the other team has a half decent sniper, you can't really do much.

As a non-sniper I am constantly getting owned by the Huntsman - particularly at melee range right up in my face.

I haven't received the huntsman yet (will trade 3 flare guns for it...), but i get the impression having a highly accurate long distance weapon without using a scope to tunnel the players vision would be it's strength I thought?

Also doesn't the shield for the the Sniper seem a bit redundant if the enemy spies can see it? (will trade for 2 Kritzriegs & a Natasha) As I haven't seen 1 Spy get electrocuted yet

but i get the impression having a highly accurate long distance weapon without using a scope to tunnel the players vision would be it's strength I thought?

Huntsman is more a medium range weapon. The arrows require charging and arcs after awhile so if you aim at someones head, if they are medium to far range, then you will either hit their chest or feet so it requires some aiming compensation

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2414/steamc.jpg
:(

The arrows require charging and arcs after awhile so if you aim at someones head, if they are medium to far range, then you will either hit their chest or feet so it requires some aiming compensation

so it's like a flare gun yea?

Pretty much, i can hit anyone with the flare gun thats why ive been so desperate to get the huntsman, but it just wont come. :(

Pretty much the same technique with the bow as the flaregun.

Got a few MVP's tonight on Node, bow only :D

It's all about the close range, nearly all my headshots are point blank around corners.

Completely useless long range, can not compete at all.

from vids of seen it doesnt look like it has as much of an arc as the flare gun.

Completely useless long range, can not compete at all.

thats the whole freaking point of it. they wanted snipers to get closer to the action instead of wanking off on the other side of the map.

i can hit dudes with the flare from across the map, its all about spamming doorways :D

thats the whole freaking point of it. they wanted snipers to get closer to the action instead of wanking off on the other side of the map.

Except everyone still tries to snipe.

You need a good med to keep you buffed and push up with the heavies and soldiers, bow is frontline weapon.

I was quite surprised, going toe to toe point blank with pyros nearly always coming out on top!

Corner spamming is amazing though on 32player server, charge/strafe/shoot... back behind the wall, headshot... repeat. Sometimes I get 5+ headshots within 20 seconds without even seeing an enemy.

Yeah it's awesome fun. You can mediocre snipers from long range fairly easy too. I'm also loving the ambassador buff (headshots do full crits now).... can 2 shot snipers from long range.

It's been a while since i played TF2 though, and I forgot how annoying pyros are. Such a f***ing annoying class, all most of them do is the obligatory hold W+M1. So annoying to have to go heal up after just getting narrowly hit by a flame.

You only notice the pyro so much because of the memorable flames, meanwhile you're getting binked by guns and explosion damage and you hardly notice.

Also doesn't the shield for the the Sniper seem a bit redundant if the enemy spies can see it?

It's more of a deterrent I think. Most spies will just go to an easier instakill unless the sniper is alone somewhere.

i didn't realise pyros could put out friendlys with the air blast. thats pretty coo

It's more of a deterrent I think.

No its not. It's more of a "whip out the ambassador and 2 shot them in the head while their zoomed in and cannot react"
The shield is a completely useless pos, unfortunately. Piss jar 4 lyfe!

shield should be tucked underneath the clothing and not easily visable.

You're underestimating the pressure of making a decision the spy is often faced with. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes I make the wrong choice, like stabbing someone in front of an enemy sentry. It's just in the heat of the moment you can't take everything into account, and you might just stab a sniper standing at the back of a group, and that will f*** your plan up.

No its not. It's more of a "whip out the ambassador and 2 shot them in the head while their zoomed in and cannot react"

As I sniper I'd rather die to a guy shooting me twice than just a lame o backstab. You're right though, the shield is pretty s***, the fact it takes away smg AND slows you down.

Deciding if you should stab a sniper that has a shield or not isn't very hard.

greazy I am starting to suspect you don't even own tf2

You're underestimating the pressure of making a decision the spy is often faced with.

Indeed. Spies need to factor so much s*** into 'the next 5-15 seconds' it's not funny.

A good spy doesn't make decisions in the 'right now'. He acts on what he's decided 7 seconds ago, WHILE checking his peripherals for potential witnesses, and is ALSO thinking about the best escape direction/plan for EACH class that could come up behind him.

Pretty much the only 'right now' decision a spy makes is how to escape if he's caught, which would constitute either A) Retreat with revolver or B) Find the nearest water/pool/medic.

An anti-backstab device forces spies to make hasty decisions. That's the best defense against bad-medium spies IMO.

Edit: Plus, you can't be backstabbed, so that protects you from the nub spies. :)

last edited by Phooks at 18:40:00 28/May/09

So really, if you wear it the only spies you need to worry about are the pro spies, and let's admit it, if one of them is after you you're f***ed anyway.

last edited by Phooks at 18:42:09 28/May/09

thermite i'm part of the qgl group.

phooks you're starting to sound a lot like infi and his little speech about metagaming.

Playing Spy is like playing Assasins Creed (with out the Parkour)

Funnest class imo

his little speech about metagaming.

I wasn't privy to this.

Link?

woot they added milestones today. thank christ

Team Fortress 2 Update Released
May 29, 2009, 4:30 pm - Valve - Product Update

Updates to Team Fortress 2 have been released. The updates will be applied automatically when your Steam client is restarted. The specific changes include:

Team Fortress 2

* Added Sniper/Spy milestone achievements as an additional way players can get the new unlockables

Arena Mode

* Added tf_arena_use_queue server convar. Turn this on to get the old queue behavior. Default is off
* Added tf_arena_round_time to set a timelimit on the round
* Added the userid of the player who built the teleporter to the "player_teleported" event
* Fixed player killed event causing server crash
* Fixed Spies not being telefragged when standing on an enemy teleporter exit with the Dead Ringer enabled
* Fixed attackers seeing the mini-crit particle effect for full crits if the victim has the Jarate effect enabled
* Fixed the Ambassador not doing damage to buildings
* Fixed Spies disguised as their own team not drawing blood effects
* Fixed players killed by flaming arrows not showing the appropriate death icon

last edited by ravn0s at 10:20:20 30/May/09

* Added Sniper/Spy milestone achievements as an additional way players can get the new unlockables

Yay finally.

* Added tf_arena_round_time to set a timelimit on the round

Would have benefited from this one last night when two knobs playing engie in nucleus decided to see how far they could climb in the map while 14 other players watched.


Now they just need to fix the glitch in sawmill where you can build a teleporter exit outside the fence...

Now this update sounds great, will give it a bash soon.

Neverending Arena battles between the last two players can get boring, although there have been some great moments.

lol just joined and server and got all the rest of the unlocks except razorback within 1 minute.

huntsman is so fun

Haha, yeah, I logged in, died, and it said that I got like 6 achievements and unlocked all of the weapons. People thought I was hacking, but then it kept happening to others.

An anti-backstab device forces spies to make hasty decisions. That's the best defense against bad-medium spies IMO.

You make it sound as if making these decisions is hard. You have two options:
1) Backstab the sniper with the shield and get stunned
2) Go find someone else

Wow, so many complex options to consider.

So really, if you wear it the only spies you need to worry about are the pro spies, and let's admit it, if one of them is after you you're f***ed anyway.

I've played against a lot of "good" spies as sniper, and barely ever die to them. A good sniper will only die to a spy when the spy is putting himself in a position that will lead to his death if he manages to kill you anyway.

^ you forgot

3. shoot him in the head with ambassador

Of course a sniper would think that the spy's decision is all about whether to stab the sniper or not. The spy gets to a point where he is presented with several options, they usually encounter a large number of enemies and have to choose which one to target, or to target a small group standing together, or whether to go for a sentry. And what are the consequences of picking this target. The cloak is a big issue too, since there is a time limit to get into the best position to execute a plan.
And by the time you put your plan into motion, everybody has moved around, or you could get spy-checked and then you have to decide whether to get in a few kills before you burn to death, and you may well stab the sniper with the razorback.
Often you may invest a lot of time making your way to a sniper's nest, only to discover the sniper has a shield, and once again you have to quickly change your plan.

haha! loving the hypothetical pissing competition between the pub heroes. do any of you chumps ever play clan/pug instead of pub? i love s***ters who think they're pro (phooks lol) cause they top score in pub.

I've played various pugs and a few clan matches.

I don't like it :( I can stand toe to toe with most good players and come out on top, but I want my 10:1 ratio and topping the server/MVP's non-stop.

Lame, but it's fun :)

pub is all there is IMO, that's what most tf2 players experience, and what valve focuses on.
Yes, it would be nice to play a game where it's the same players from start to finish, and your team has a cooperative plan they stick to, but I cannot stand how serious you have to be to participate in that world - they all have rules which pretty much equate to 'all you ever do is play tf2' They're probably high school kids with a lot of time to dedicate, and that's fine, but it's not what I want to do. I'm just in it to enjoy it, and getting into those situations where your pub team actually works together is probably way more awesome than if you all play to a formula with the same guys.

i love s***ters who think they're pro (phooks lol) cause they top score in pub.

Because spies are so common in pugs...

Does double sarcasm exist?

I play on iinet servers and there's usually 4 spys.

wtf is a pug ?

Pick up game.

It's like a clan match without the specific clan, usually a higher quality of player. All the pug's I've played have stemmed from mIRC channels, someone announces a PUG and people sign up.

They're arranged beforehand (map, teams, timelimit etc.), someone will have a passworded server somewhere and you're expected to play the entire match.

last edited by CHUB at 12:38:17 31/May/09

also pug in mmo language means pick up group

The only classes that are useful in clan games are soldier, demo, medic, scouts and a very rare sniper.

the rest of the classes are completely imbalanced.

The clans have such a precise formula, spies are so obvious it's funny.

However in PUBS spies can slaughter a whole team. And that's a whole different ball game to the drudgery that is PUG formulas.

Are all clan games played in arena maps? Surely you'll need at least one of every class.

Are all clan games played in arena maps? Surely you'll need at least one of every class.

What?

Arena was a new gamemode released at a later date.

Are all clan games played in arena maps?

why would they play them in arena when the teams constantly change?

last edited by ravn0s at 15:15:44 31/May/09

I don't know but what phook's said didn't make any sense, it was more a rhetorical question than anything else. He seems to speak s*** lately.

The only classes that are useful in clan games are soldier, demo, medic, scouts and a very rare sniper.

the rest of the classes are completely imbalanced.

The clans have such a precise formula, spies are so obvious it's funny.

However in PUBS spies can slaughter a whole team. And that's a whole different ball game to the drudgery that is PUG formulas.

it seriously doesn't sound like you've ever played clan/pug. where do you pug, and have you ever played for a clan? if so, which one?

cause you couldn't be more wrong. snipers, engis and to a lesser extent spies are all used to great effect by top teams in australia.

greazy: clan matches are played on mostly cp maps with 6v6, nocrits and class restrictions.

what kind of class restrictions? I've never played pug/clan matches, I just assumed certain things (like every class would be useful to some extent). So the bomb maps are never played? Seems odd.

cause you couldn't be more wrong. snipers, engis and to a lesser extent spies are all used to great effect by top teams in australia.

Really? I would have thought even a mediocre demoman could take out a sentry with his eyes closed.

a strategically placed sentry can force the other team to uber where you want them to, not where they want to. it can also help against lazy back capping scouts. but it's mostly about setting up the rest of the team. only gets used on certain maps though.

the usual class restrictions are for 6v6: 1 med, 1 demo, 1 heavy, 1 engi, 1 spy, 2 scout, 2 sniper, 2 solly, 2 pyro.

edit: haven't seen the new pl maps played yet but maybe they will be i dunno. lots of different maps get played but i guess people always come back to the tried and tested ones. granary and badlands are always popular i suppose because they're symmetrical and pretty well designed so noone can complain.

haha, maybe i was being a bit of a dick before phooks i genuinely am interested if you've played competitively or even if you want to know where to etc.

edit: woops, meant scouts not spies in the first paragraph. just reread the post then =/

last edited by taggs at 09:43:43 01/Jun/09

6v6? That's the standard for TF2 clan games?!?

6v6? That's the standard for TF2 clan games?!?

yes, it is. But when the 6 people are all working together, its not as sparse as you think it could be.

yep 6v6 is by far the best format for competitive play. it's pretty much the accepted team size for comp play around the world in the same way the standard cs team is 5v5. 8v8 is the only other format that is played (and only on the gamearena ladder which all the serious teams abandoned a year ago or more) and it's not as fun imo because it turns the game really spammy and puts way too much emphasis on ubers (you're allowed 2 meds in 8v8).

lol they tell you what you're allowed to use as a class? Hahahaha just take away any decision making from the game why don't they...
Half the challenge of this game is figuring out if you should stick to the class you're playing or switch to demoman.

i wonder if cevo is going to allow the new unlocks now that milestones are back in.

thermite: i'm sure that was a piss poor attempt at trolling but i spose i'll bit anyway. if you've played tf2 before even for a little i'm sure you can work out why class restrictions make for a much faster, more balanced and enjoyable game. think about it.

not sure about the new unlocks. standard rules for most comps in the past have been all unlocks allowed except for sandman because that's pretty overpowered. in reality though pretty much all unlocks don't get used, only really the kritz when one team is owning or just f***ing about. they are great fun for pub though :D

which of the new unlocks would be useful in comp play do you think? probably only the jarate for sniper and maaaaaybe the ambassador or cloak and dagger for spy. but i'd probably just use the stock rollout for spy, myself.

If anyone played ET they'd remember about class restrictions and they worked great. Wish TF2 had them, not to stop people abusing a certain class but to stop so many people going all pyro/spy/sniper.

taggs: wouldn't pyro players use the new axe?

yeah i suppose they would. pyros and heavys aren't really as useful in clan matches though. there isn't alot they can do that another class can't do better.

edit: wait that's not entirely true. i've seen clans run pyros on certain sections of certain maps using mainly the blow gun before and it's worked relatively well. that's probably the most effective use of a pyro in a clan match, to stop long-range spam etc. but you'd have to factor that in vs. the loss of potential firepower of another scout/solly etc.

so really, most of the time they aren't used.

edit2: oh yeah, forgot about that. meds def always use both of the other 2 unlocks. didn't even think about them because once you have em they should always be equipped :D

last edited by taggs at 10:55:04 01/Jun/09

I imagine the medics would use the Blutsauger and Ubersaw, they're much more useful than their alternatives (imo).

The Blutsauger is a massive upgrade.

I've killed many heavies 1 vs 1 at medium range.

Indeed chub, many heavies.

you usually get more hp back than the heavies dish out.

I was playing a game last night as spy, got around to their spawn where they were using the tele and went to do the usual stab and sap on the tele. Only thing is after I did the stab and went to switch for the sap, I got teleported through through as if I was one of their team. Is this a bug or has anyone else had this happen. Dunno if its such a good thing for spies to use enemy tele's???

thermite: i'm sure that was a piss poor attempt at trolling but i spose i'll bit anyway. if you've played tf2 before even for a little i'm sure you can work out why class restrictions make for a much faster, more balanced and enjoyable game. think about it.

I'm not trolling and I strongly disagree. Do the rules also tell you which weapon to use, which route you should pick, and who exactly you should attack? If you've played tf2 before even for a little i'm sure you can work out why weapon/route/attack restrictions make for a much faster, more balanced, easier, less-to-think-about, and more efficient game. think about it. or rather don't think about it, since thinking is not enjoyable for you.

Snakeman, spys can use enemy teleporters to teleport from the exit to the entrance.

I didn't know about this, I have to try it out.

Infact I'm pretty sure I've been telefragged as spy a lot - so I don't think the exit to entrance thing is true.

They can go through teleporters backwards? I didn't know that.

Infact I'm pretty sure I've been telefragged as spy a lot - so I don't think the exit to entrance thing is true.

They've only just made it so spies can use enemy teleporters. It was added in the spy/sniper update. I've gone from entrance > exit, never tried the other way.

Got to test this asap.

That sounds epic.

I'm not trolling and I strongly disagree. Do the rules also tell you which weapon to use, which route you should pick, and who exactly you should attack? If you've played tf2 before even for a little i'm sure you can work out why weapon/route/attack restrictions make for a much faster, more balanced, easier, less-to-think-about, and more efficient game. think about it. or rather don't think about it, since thinking is not enjoyable for you.

I think you are reading too much into it. Bear in mind the class restrictions are only for the competitive leagues, which aim to keep the games as competitive, balanced and entertaining as possible.

When you are playing cricket at the park with mates, you can mess around and play with whatever rules you want. When sports are played competitively, they generally have rules to keep the game fair and balanced. Same thing.

They can go through teleporters backwards? I didn't know that.

No they can just use teleporters. I dont think they could before.

I'm not trolling and I strongly disagree. Do the rules also tell you which weapon to use, which route you should pick, and who exactly you should attack? If you've played tf2 before even for a little i'm sure you can work out why weapon/route/attack restrictions make for a much faster, more balanced, easier, less-to-think-about, and more efficient game. think about it. or rather don't think about it, since thinking is not enjoyable for you.

wow, you're really that retarded huh?

yes, not letting teams run 3 medics and 3 demos is exactly the same thing as telling every player exactly what to do at every point in time during the game isn't it...

The whole setup is odd. I can understand with 12v12 match you might want class restrictions, but in a 6v6 it's so small that players should be able to do certain things (like scout rush or pyro spam). That's just my opinion.

those restrictions aren't arbitrary, they have come about from feedback from the competitive community since tf2 came out.

i suppose i could sit here and try to justify to people who don't play competitve tf2 why they are the best rules (that i've played under, and i've been playing comp tf2 since it came out) but you probably won't fully get it anyway cause you've never played in that setting.

i mean, the restrictions on meds, demos and sollys are pretty straight forward. if you don't restrict meds, each team will run as many as possible and the game becomes uberfortress 2. if you don't restrict demos and sollys the game becomes an epic spam fest, making classes like scouts and spies way less useful.

the other restrictions are just there i suppose to stop retarded s*** like teams building 5 sentries on the final point of maps. not that it really needs to be against the rules, no team would ever do that. well, in a serious game anyway.

if you still don't understand why those rules are in place. have a bash at a few pugs and see how you go.

I think as team sizes reduce the restrictions get heavier.

GA ET just moved from 6v6 to 5v5 and now you can only run one solider. :(

i should add, the restrictions in tf2 are in place to try and make as many different classes and strategies viable as possible.

without the restrictions each game would degenerate into essentially the same class rollouts: as many meds and heavy classes (solly/demo) as possible, depending on the map.

I'm all for class restrictions. The one pug I played last week it was fairly good. As good as TF2 and any source engine game can get really, so still pretty bad ;)