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Mary MacKillop becomes Aus first saint. This on its own is stupid enough.

But get this her two miracles are that people who were dying prayed to her and they got better, how the f*** is this a miracle that she has performed? She was dead and in one case dead for near on 90yrs!!

People are mental.

LOL Christians are so f***ing dumb. Half the ten commandments are about not worshiping anybody other than God, because our magical, all-powerful sky daddy is quite insecure and needs our love. Then people go and pray to saints and Mary.

Idiots.

Its not about just God, its about a holy trinity, the father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. Those people filled with the holy spirit, doing gods work, those are the Saints, so praying to them its like praying to god, they're all different faces of the same thing.

Note, I'm not a practising catholic, don't really believe or follow any of this mumbo jumbo, and I'm probably paraphrasing a lot of the above and possibly getting it a bit wrong, but I was raised catholic, went to catholic primary and high schools (both named after Mary Mackillop actually), and I guess it sticks with you a bit.

But get this her two miracles are that people who were dying prayed to her and they got better, how the f*** is this a miracle that she has performed? She was dead and in one case dead for near on 90yrs!!

Because they never got any medical treatment at all!
Wait, what's that you say?
They did get medical treatment at some stage?
Oh, nevermind then.

Its not about just God, its about a holy trinity, the father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. Those people filled with the holy spirit, doing gods work, those are the Saints, so praying to them its like praying to god, they're all different faces of the same thing.

How can a grown adult say this with a straight face?

How can a grown adult say this with a straight face?

By being indoctrinated from birth.

It reminds me of that episode of American Dad where Hailey walks in on Francine reading the bible to a bunch of kids, and Hailey is like "Hey mom, tell the one about where god gets angry because he can't have his fruity cereal. Oh wait, that was the Trix rabbit, I get them confused because they're both imaginary."

By being indoctrinated from birth.

Pretty much. I'm sure some people truly believe it, and truly have faith, and if that helps them through the day then sure, they're welcome to it. But I reckon an even bigger percentage of people are just reciting back the words they've had drilled into them since they were kids. I bet a lot of catholics couldn't actually answer any hard questions you posed to them, or explain their faith, they just say what they've been taught to say and sing the words to hyms they've been taught to sing.

In primary school, we used to have lessons which pretty much involved how to go to church, like when you're supposed to sit, or kneel, or stand, what you're supposed to say in response to stuff the priests says, and learning the words to different hyms. None of it was ever explained, the reasons why you say these things, or do these things, or what any of it means, it was just pure mechanical "After the priest says this, you do this, then he says this, then you do that". Its like a big game of follow the leader or simon says.

Praying, going to confession, the rosary, none of it was ever explained, as a kid you really had nfi what it all meant or what it was supposed to mean, you were just told where to be and when, and what you were supposed to say and do, and you did it. Over, and over, and over, and over.

It was all a big farce, a meaningless show, a crutch to help people feel better about their lives. Turn up to mass on a Sunday, donate some money to the church, stand when I'm supposed to stand and kneel when I'm supposed to kneel and say the right words when I'm supposed to say them and god will love me and I wont go to hell. f*** that.

And yeah, I'm a little bitter.

wow... did a priest touch you?

I was very briefly an altar boy, but that lasted like a month, if that. Luckily I got out before having to touch (or be touched by) any priests. It was a close call though.

So khel, give us a demo of what must be your wonderful singing voice. I vote for qgl talent thread mk2 (who started that other one years ago?)

Praying, going to confession, the rosary, none of it was ever explained, as a kid you really had nfi what it all meant or what it was supposed to mean, you were just told where to be and when, and what you were supposed to say and do, and you did it. Over, and over, and over, and over.

To be fair when does anyone ever explain why they want children to do what they're told and why certain methods are the way they are?

You could take your example and apply it to eating your veggies. What parent ever tells their kid why veggies are "good for you"? The inner workings of anti-oxidants and the multitude of chemicals released by digestion are just too much for a 4 year old to understand so does that also mean people should go out and question whether or not veggies really are good for you and why eating a pound of dirt & rocks probably won't do you any good?

If you really wanted to know what the hymns were for and the rosary or whatever you'd go look it up. It's the whole "god helps those who help themselves" thing.

p.s. I'm not overly religious or defending or condemning religion or parents who tell their kids to eat their veggies although Brussels sprouts can go DIAF.


last edited by whoop at 05:39:28 20/Dec/09

It is always fun to ask Catholics; "Why do you worship human mutilation and practice symbolic canabolism?"

Another good one is to ask, "If people pray to Jesus are they breaking one of the 10 commandments?"

oh yay, a religion thread.

Yeh ... after the 8th or so it got a bit old eh.

Big f***ing deal if the Catholics made a saint. They've been doing it for centuries, get over it.

I read Tony Abbott thinks all students should be made to study the christian bible because it'll make 'em good.
linky

BIBLE classes should be compulsory so children have a fundamental understanding of Christianity on leaving school, Tony Abbott says.

"I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation," said the Federal Opposition leader.

"That includes, most importantly, the Bible.

"I think it would be impossible to have a good general education without at least some serious familiarity with the Bible and with the teachings of Christianity.

I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation,

what the f*** texts are at the core of our civilisation?

I love it how Christians fire up when you say god doesn't exist
so long as they're happy to keep sprouting off s*** about some mythical zombie, I'm happy to keep reminding them it's all bulls***

why does australia need any saints

surely we have more than enough of this holiness bulls*** going around

"I think it would be impossible to have a good general education without at least some serious familiarity with the Bible and with the teachings of Christianity.

I wonder if the Tonester would include the Crusades in that?

I had a similar experience to Khel with the Mormons. As soon as I could think for myself, I rebelled and f***ed off.

Also, to be called a Saint, you just have to be called Aaron and play games a lot.

"I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation," said the Federal Opposition leader.

I agree, I think that all the major religions should be included with equal amounts. Not just the Bible.

"I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation,"

I'm pretty sure any serious anthropologist will tell you that the core of our civilization is based off that of the ancient Greeks. The very basis of our civilization predates Christianity. Democracy, fair trial, ownership; these things are not in the bible.

"I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation,"

I'm pretty sure any serious anthropologist will tell you that the core of our civilization is based off that of the ancient Greeks. The very basis of our civilization predates Christianity. Democracy, fair trial, ownership; these things are not in the bible.

Of course if one is to study Christianity they would have to begin at Zoroastrianism or Mazdayasna. Then again I don't think anyone believes Mazdas are that good.

So because the Greeks pre-date Christianity we should just not study it?

The story of the People of the Book (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) manifestly changed our world in at least as dramatic a fashion that Greek Civilisation did - at times preserved the Greeko-Roman heritage. Without Islam the Dark Ages would have been an epic setback.

The study of religion from an academic perspective should definitely be part of education. The fact that Catholics, Protestants, Muslims and Jewish people effectively worship the same God is a massive argument about how silly the whole thing is.

IN 1993, the Vatican decreed that in 1961 Mary MacKillop had cured an anonymous Sydney woman of leukaemia, or rather that God had cured her through the intercession of MacKillop

Why must people tell fibs.

Does mackillop becoming a saint hinder/hurt any of you in any way shape or form..I bet not, so why go out of your way to bag something that you don't want anything to do with. Just let it be, and move on.

Why must people tell fibs

She's probably not lying. Occasionally people recover from terminal illness without medical explanation, IMO probably due to misdiagnosis.

Its entirely likely that she and possibly others were praying like mad to Mary and the apparent cure happened, which was then attributed to divine intercession.

The religious education subject that was run each year in the high school I went to was actually pretty good. There was never any study of the bible, it was more about education on religion in general to try and give an understanding of all faiths. The history of the major religions, their beliefs etc. It would probably help all people to learn this stuff as kids, to reduce stigma of religions (especially mulimism since its the major target for intolerance these days) but I doubt you'll get bogan families letting their kids learn this s*** let alone have the kids actually behave and listen.

how does the intercession stuff work anyway

wouldn't a sick believer rather pray to someone who is already canonised rather than pray to some random dead nun and risk it not working?

wouldn't a sick believer rather pray to someone who is already canonised rather than pray to some random dead nun and risk it not working?

lol so true

Haha who knows?!

Maybe its like a massive belief queue with a quota. You know St Peter is gonna get spammed with offers for miracle-worthy problems, so you figure you might take a chance on a rookie trying to make her mark..

last edited by Hogfather at 16:34:37 20/Dec/09

^hahaha I love that idea, St Peter probably outsources his miracle requests

Pretty much. I'm sure some people truly believe it, and truly have faith, and if that helps them through the day then sure, they're welcome to it. But I reckon an even bigger percentage of people are just reciting back the words they've had drilled into them since they were kids. I bet a lot of catholics couldn't actually answer any hard questions you posed to them, or explain their faith, they just say what they've been taught to say and sing the words to hyms they've been taught to sing.

In primary school, we used to have lessons which pretty much involved how to go to church, like when you're supposed to sit, or kneel, or stand, what you're supposed to say in response to stuff the priests says, and learning the words to different hyms. None of it was ever explained, the reasons why you say these things, or do these things, or what any of it means, it was just pure mechanical "After the priest says this, you do this, then he says this, then you do that". Its like a big game of follow the leader or simon says.

Praying, going to confession, the rosary, none of it was ever explained, as a kid you really had nfi what it all meant or what it was supposed to mean, you were just told where to be and when, and what you were supposed to say and do, and you did it. Over, and over, and over, and over.

It was all a big farce, a meaningless show, a crutch to help people feel better about their lives. Turn up to mass on a Sunday, donate some money to the church, stand when I'm supposed to stand and kneel when I'm supposed to kneel and say the right words when I'm supposed to say them and god will love me and I wont go to hell. f*** that.

This is all interesting stuff, Khel, but not particularly surprising. What's more interesting though is why do some people, like you, break free of the dogma, whereas others just continue to pass it on? Can you share with us the basics of why you no longer accept Catholicism?

To be fair when does anyone ever explain why they want children to do what they're told and why certain methods are the way they are?

Parents should - explaining things to children has better outcomes than just telling them what is right/wrong/acceptible/necessary.

By the way, I just read a bit of the article and about Mary via Google. Why not make her a saint based on all the good work she did with education and other charitable stuff, rather than attributing the sainthood to one random person recovering from cancer?

By the way, I just read a bit of the article and about Mary via Google. Why not make her a saint based on all the good work she did with education and other charitable stuff, rather than attributing the sainthood to one random person recovering from cancer?

Because "the church" needs proof of the miraclulous otherwise they are just doing what every one should be doing.

Loads of good non saint catholics.
Edmund Rice was another good educator, gave away the life of a millionaire to do it. And risked his own life at a time when there were bounties on catholic religous people to educate poor / street kids.

I find raving pro religous people annoying, I find raving anti-religous people even more annoying, usually they try to ascribe religion to somehow being less intelligent, yet some of the most intelligent people that have ever lived have been religious or atleast agnostic. And religious folks tend to help others in the name of the purple spagetti monsters (and that even include Tom and his scientologists), atheists ... very few non religious charities to the point where I am not sure I could name one.

I am a lapsed catholic much like khel. The values I dig, the politics and dogma I don't.

very few non religious charities to the point where I am not sure I could name one.

Fred Hollows foundation
RSPCA
Lort smith
Food not bombs
Lentil as anything
just off the top of my head.


Let the religiousists do it if they stop then the a-theisists will pick up the slack

Can you share with us the basics of why you no longer accept Catholicism?

I guess it is in large part due to my insatiable need to know why things are what they are and how things work. I was never happy to accept something on face value, I want to know whats going on behind the scenes and what makes things tick. With religion, it was all just a matter of "Believe in god, do this, say this", and asking why was likely to get you in trouble. You were just supposed to accept it on face value; questioning what you were taught, or what the priests told you or what was written in the bible was pretty much a sin. Who would dare to question the word of god!

And that just never sat well with me. Even as a kid I was the sort who would go to mass on a Sunday and when everybody knelt, I would stay sitting in my seat, just to see what would happen. Was god going to smite me if I didn't kneel at the correct time during Sunday mass? I guess I'm just not the sort of person who can believe in something on the basis of "You have to believe this, because I'm telling you its true".

There was one religion lesson we had in high school, where our teacher was sick and we had a substitute teacher, and the sub guy had been studying some kind of degree at university on theology, and it was a genuinely interesting lesson because he spent the whole time talking about religion in general and different belief systems and how everyone is basically worshipping the same god in their own ways (kind of like what someone was saying above). It was a rational, un-biased, well thought out point of view, and I could really respect that and actually found it to be a really interesting discussion. Its like instead of studying history, or geography or something like that, we were studying religion and where religion came from and what is behind it and what the different religions have in common and how its changed through the ages, and a lot of genuinely interesting stuff.

But that was one lesson out of 12 years of school, the rest of it being pure mindless indoctrination, which is a shame really, because its obvious there is potential to teach religion in a much more interesting, much more engaging, much less heavy-handed and offensive way, but instead it just becomes glorified brain washing. I should also note, its been about 15 years since I finished high school so things may have improved now.

i did 12 years of catholic school. i never took it srsly. most people at catholic school just think religion is a joke.

^ yeah same ... The kids at Catholic schools drink, smoke, take drugs and f*** about as well.

A few more secular charities: Amnesty International, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Doctors without Borders, Habitat for Humanity, Mercy Corps, Oxfam International. Charity doesn't need religion.

sif pray to anyone but God.

The values I dig, the politics and dogma I don't.

Visit Citipointe Church, or one of the Christian Outreach Centre churches. Christianity has nothing to do with dogma and everything to do with a relationship with the living God.

Its not about just God, its about a holy trinity ...

No, there was the bathtub, bludgeoning and the jumper. But BEFORE all that, there was the kidnapping.
oh wait.

anyway, yeah, very apathetic about this kind of crap. She's a saint. ok. life goes on.

EDIT: Tony Abbott's just lost support from me with the whole bible in schools issue. We live in a secular nation and i'd like it kept that way.

last edited by Rohan at 23:44:53 20/Dec/09

euph... do you believe that this person actually faith healed someone? I wouldn't put it past you.

Christianity has nothing to do with dogma and everything to do with a relationship with the living God.

Quick question: You believe in God and Jesus, but not Zeus and Hercules, or Osiris and Horus. How did you decide the others were myths, but the god of your own ancient religion wasn't?

well, praying to one person is probably preferable on a common sense basis to having a whole calendar full of dudes to pray to

occam's razor and all that

Because of all the factual historic evidence in the bible (lol)

Because the norse gods don't holy scriptures dedicated to them.

praying to one person is probably preferable on a common sense basis to having a whole calendar full of dudes to pray to

So its laziness then?

occam's razor and all that

Occam's Razor would be all religions are the same, not one religion is special.

Same meaning bulls***.

I thought that was obvious, as they can't all be true.

Just pointing it out for some of our slower members (euph) who have trouble picking up on obvious things.

Ockham's Razor would tell us that there is no god and the world exists as we experience it and nothing else.

actually occam's razor tells us that nothing really exists

that's simpler and makes fewer assumptions doesn't it

I find raving pro religous people annoying, I find raving anti-religous people even more annoying, usually they try to ascribe religion to somehow being less intelligent, yet some of the most intelligent people that have ever lived have been religious or atleast agnostic. And religious folks tend to help others in the name of the purple spagetti monsters (and that even include Tom and his scientologists), atheists ... very few non religious charities to the point where I am not sure I could name one.

You're arguments are retarded. Scientists are far more likely to be Atheist or Agnostic than religious. Looking back in history to find intelligent people who believed in God is obviously flawed.

You can't name Amnesty International, Greenpeace? Most major charities are not religiously aligned. After all Humanism is widely considered a form of Atheism.

I don't care if you believe in God, I'm pretty solidly against the Bible and Qur’an though. These are not books for our time and their teachings and interpretations are causing a lot of pain and suffering. You might not be able to name any charities off the top of your head run by Atheists but I can't name any wars off the top of mine that were caused by them either.

You're arguments are retarded. Scientists are far more likely to be Atheist or Agnostic than religious. Looking back in history to find intelligent people who believed in God is obviously flawed.

Entirely untrue, lots of scientists maintain a faith in God (I believe in the states it is ~60% but that's just off the top of my head). Also some of the greatest thinkers whos theories could be said to cast doubt on the existence of God (I'm thinking Einsteint & Darwin) had a strong faith in God and actually hoped their theories would lead to some proof of the existence of God.

but I can't name any wars off the top of mine that were caused by them either.

Weren't pretty much all of the recent wars fought over secular reasons?

a religion thread. something novel.

^^You posted in this thread yesterday & someone posted this exact same statement before that.

so if i pray to a can and then get enough people praying to the same can and some manage to survive that can will become a saint? fk yer

doesn't it get boring discussing whether god exists or not?

Entirely untrue, lots of scientists maintain a faith in God (I believe in the states it is ~60% but that's just off the top of my head).

Wrong. Even if your out of your arse statistics were right you would still be wrong as the percentage of Americans that believe in some form of god is around 73% which means that even at 60% scientists are more likely to be Atheist or Agnostic than the general populous. Perhaps I should have clarified that with respected scientists.

Weren't pretty much all of the recent wars fought over secular reasons?

Not really, Jihad is a clear motivator for some of the recent goings on. Certainly acted as a catalyst.

But regardless of hidden motivations for oil and power, none of the wars have been started by Atheists or in the name of Atheism.

This site has a bunch of statistics as well as a break down of demographics in this site

^^I stand corrected, I was sure I'd heard that number on the radio, should have checked my facts.

Weren't pretty much all of the recent wars fought over secular reasons?

Religion is meant to give us morality. If people start wars for religious reasons it's not really working, is it?

I could have sworn you cannot pray to anyone apart from God.

So praying to Mary would violate the 1st of the 10 Commandments, yeah?

i did 12 years of catholic school. i never took it srsly. most people at catholic school just think religion is a joke.

Your holy leader (tony Abbot, not the other guy ) wouldnt be very happy with you saying that. I dont think he see's religion as a joke, he seems to think its a basis for a good education (well not religion exactly, just christianity, the other religions mustn be very good), and no doubt has a strong influence on his day-to-day work, except he seems like the kind of guy thats takes things literealy from the bible instead of just using the storys as a moral guidelines. Someone like that shouldnt be the leader of a country.

Ill still vote for him though if he says he will remove the internet filter.

I watched Peter.And.Paul.And.The.Christian.Revolution.The.Empire.And.The.Kingdom today.

it kinda sucks that the Christian faith fell to Rome.. but f*** me - could you imagine the bulls*** that would have ensured if Christianity had stayed a Jewish splinter?

last edited by koopz at 18:11:17 21/Dec/09

Not really, Jihad is a clear motivator for some of the recent goings on. Certainly acted as a catalyst.

I think you'll find religion was the tool to motivate people into terrorism, not the motivator.

Syco - I was going to post something similar, but his next sentence kind of cut me off. Irregardless (haha that doesn't get caught by spell check, wtf) of hidden agenda, have you ever hear of someone aside from fpot issuing a call to arms over atheism?

last edited by Hogfather at 19:18:50 21/Dec/09

I think you'll find religion was the tool to motivate people into terrorism, not the motivator.

still to be a suicide bomber you'd want to believe in your afterlife (& therefore your religion) or else it's a pretty poor career choice ;p

have you ever hear of someone aside from fpot issuing a call to arms over atheism?

Well no, but they're hardly an organised group. Believers form groups, non-believers are just ... people heh.

still to be a suicide bomber you'd want to believe in your afterlife (& therefore your religion) or else it's a pretty poor career choice ;p

tamil tigers are some of the most active suicide bombers and they are a political movement not a religious movement. there are lots of people that 'allegedly' believe in an afterlife/72 virgins/heaven/hell but not many people actually act rationally according to those beliefs.

all this discussion made me try to find a trimmed down version of Jeff Dunham and walter.. with his take on suicide bombers :p

I heard since Susane Boyle won Britain's got Talent suicide bombings have markable decreased. It turns out seeing what a virgin looks like hindered their cause.

Visit Citipointe Church, or one of the Christian Outreach Centre churches. Christianity has nothing to do with dogma and everything to do with a relationship with the living God.

Sorry but they are the sorts of places filled with people who love to waffle on about how catholics aren't christians.. more politics and dogma there then most places. Not to mention they believe genesis is a history rather then a creation story.

syco, that's top shelf.