So now that I have an iPhone I'm trying really hard to stick with iTunes for a music player on my laptop as I want to have common playlists and music etc with a minimum of bulls***.

But ffs, is this software intentionally s***house?! Every time I want to do something it seems like I need to open google to et someone to explain it and find an obscure menu or button hidden somewhere on the UI. Is it just that its deliberately Mac-ish so I'm not used to it?

Anyway, as an example here is today's problem that I can't get a good answer out of Google for (haven't tried wolfram yet lols). Can anyone explain how I can get it to play / pause using keyboard without it being maximised? Windows media control keys only work when the thing is the main window which completely defeats the purpose of using the f***ing keys.

ARGH, any ideas mac fanboys? :)

mm this is issue... i had this issue too the only keyboard if it works with is the g15

Once I got used to itunes I was fine.

It isn't that intuitive, particularly compared to the ipod/iphone interface

Great, so iTunes now owns my second monitor so I can lunge up there with the mouse if the phone rings. This is probably a conspiracy to make my computer look like a Mac.

f*** you Steve Jobs! Stupid iPhone is creeping macishness into my stuff. Next thing I know Carson will show up to give me a makeover ffs.

use the mini player, alt tab to it and hit space to pause.

I'm sure there would be a plug in to redirect the media keystrokes to iTunes as Windows won't send the iTunes window the media keystrokes unless its focused. I guess Windows iTunes is lazy in that it doesn't monitor the keyboard directly, but hey.

Generally you'll find winTunes is a bit s*** (despite having the same functionality as macTunes). I have a Mac so i don't have this problem ^_^

use the mini player, alt tab to it and hit space to pause.

Yeh that works, at least it isn't robbing me of a display now I guess..

last edited by Hogfather at 11:44:52 20/May/09

I tried to convert to iTunes a year or so back and it seamed to lack some really basic functions.

Like, right click on a track and select 'Add to Playlist', like you can do on WMP, but no nothing. I like to choose a track and then find the next one I ant to listen to and then queue it up. I got the s***s, but maybe stuff like that has been addressed in later versions, or I just sucked at it.

use the mini player, alt tab to it and hit space to pause.

lol. fail. f*** iTunes.

I agree, iTunes is very hard to get used to.

itunes can suck my cock, I cringe wheneva I have to use the s*** so I gave up.. kinda defeats the purpose of having an iphone now I guess.. good for playing games whilst hangin a s*** I must admit.

Like, right click on a track and select 'Add to Playlist', like you can do on WMP, but no nothing. I like to choose a track and then find the next one I ant to listen to and then queue it up. I got the s***s, but maybe stuff like that has been addressed in later versions, or I just sucked at it.

You can do this... right click then go to add playlist then choose the playlist you would like it to go in.... they also show what playlist the song is in as well...

yeah I hate it too.

WHY CANT I JUST f***ING ADD MUSIC TO/FORM MY iP{hone|od} FROM WHATEVER f***ING COMPUTER ITS PLUGGED INTO?!@!@$!@$!@$!@$%!@$!@$

As I said I was probably doing to wrong but I don't want to create a new playlist as such, that gets saved, just play this track after the one that is currently playing and after any other tracks that I have already queued up.

Very simple function of WMP but iTunes had to make a meal out of it.

I have used iTunes for years and there's nothing that beats in terms of "managing everything about your media".

It organises media into Artist/Album, syncs my iPhone, handles my videos and concert DVDs for iPhone, has the App Store etc.

Nothing could replace iTunes now that its handling everything.

but iTunes had to make a meal out of it.

As before, right click > Add to Playlist = not very difficult if you ask me.

last edited by 3dee at 13:00:00 20/May/09

...is s***!

Oh sorry I thought this was a complete the sentence thread.

I also projected a large amount of hate at it when I was forced to install it for my iphone.
Could not believe how terrible it was from an end users point of view.
I figured in this day and age drag and drop was pretty much a staple part of any app now.

I would like to drag my mp3's into my iphone... BZZTT wrong cant do that... ok how about I try dragging them into itunes then... BZZZZZT wrong.
Took me ages to work out you had to setup the library first.

That plus a bunch of other small simple tasks with retarded methods of completing said tasks...
I can't understand how the iphone is very user friendly yet the application to manage it is absolutely horrendous.

last edited by rubba-chikin at 13:00:22 20/May/09

Martz/tequila - if you dont mind jailbreaking your iPhone, I highly recommend PwnPlayer which just plays mp3's from a directory on your iPhone

I use that in combination with AirSharing, no iTunes required.

cheer nathan,

its jail broken already, when you say "plays mp3s from a directory"
does it still work as per usual in the "ipod" application?

how to jail break?

I would like to drag my mp3's into my iphone... BZZTT wrong cant do that...

Fail. First off, the iPhone runs HFS formatted flash storage and uses a Unix operating system, how compatible do you think that is with Windows? Not even Macs can access the iPhone filesystem, one reason is to ensure the operating system in it doesn't get messed up by newbs.

ok how about I try dragging them into itunes then... BZZZZZT wrong.

Worked for me. For the last five or six years.

Took me ages to work out you had to setup the library first.

Uh, drag, drop, fix up tags, plug in iPhone, set to Manually Manage, drag songs onto iPhone, wait, play. Not that hard really.

Fail. First off, the iPhone runs HFS formatted flash storage and uses a Unix operating system, how compatible do you think that is with Windows? Not even Macs can access the iPhone filesystem, one reason is to ensure the operating system in it doesn't get messed up by newbs.

Total bulls***.

If that's the case, why can I open up Windows explorer and drag and drop images from the iPhone then? Why can third party developer implement file sharing with other file systems I have a NAS box that is a Unix file system and it shares with Windows perfectly?

Its purely an Apple-says-so issue to promote iTunes. They're gonna get themselves seriously f***ed in the arse by the regulators if the iPhone ends up dominant.

Ive been using OSX on my pc with Itunes and my new iphone, I found Itunes to be pretty easy to use, File, add to library, fix up tags and add missing album art, done. If your mp3's have correct tags, they just go straight in, and if you are ripping a CD, again no issues.

The only thing i though was a bit silly, maybe im doing it wrong is that to burn an album, you have to make it a playlist, by draggin the album over to the right playlist area, why cant there be a burn cd button when you are inside an album folder. Not that dragging the album over to the playlist area is hard though.

Hogfather, I have a logitech media mouse that works perfectly with itunes regardless of what window I'm in.

teq, without JB'ing, you can get a 3rd party wifi app that will let you drag and drop music, but it won't let you play it from the iPhone's iPod app. Using 3rd party apps to get media on the iPhone defeats 80% of why the iPhone is awesome (syncing with iTunes).

I suggest that you whingy bitches don't find workarounds, but take the few seconds to work out the optimal way to do things properly - when you have everything going properly iTunes + iPhone will be your bestest friend ever.

Hogfather, I have a logitech media mouse that works perfectly with itunes regardless of what window I'm in.

I suggest that you whingy bitches don't find workarounds, but take the few seconds to work out the optimal way to do things properly - when you have everything going properly iTunes + iPhone will be your bestest friend ever.

You suggest I buy new f***ing hardware to solve my problem when my current logitech keyboard works fine with other players, and that's your "take a few seconds to work out the optimal way" solution?

My roflcopter goes swoi swoi swoi.

See, that's my point about regulation. I really do hate the s*** out of iTunes, but because I must use iTunes to get media onto my iPhone, I am obliged to use it (or Jailbreak). For this reason I am using iTunes instead of players that I personally find superior like WinAmp.

They get away with it because the iPhone isn't a monopoly or dominant phone - Symbian, blackberry, Android (and even Win Mo) are strong competitors. But the iPhone might end up being king, at which point people like nullsoft and Microsoft might start getting the s***s about it as Media Player and WinAmp are blocked from synching with the device.

People who get iPhone's and then whinge about having to use iTunes need to be shot (figurately speaking). If you can't figure out how to use iTunes, then maybe you shouldn't be using a computer.

People who get iPhone's and then whinge about having to use iTunes need to be shot (figurately speaking). If you can't figure out how to use iTunes, then maybe you shouldn't be using a computer.

It works. But its awful and unintuitive. Nobody has given me a solution to why the bloody play and pause button on my keyboard don't work. How do you 'queue it up' instead of making permanent playlists? Why the hell doesn't drag and drop work, within iTunes itself?

Or don't the glaring bugs and functionality gaps not count as 'not being able to work it out'?

Try these Hogfather

http://lifehacker.com/356956/add-on+screen-display-and-key-triggers-to-itunes-with-itunescontrol

Haven't tried either of them though, but the top link seems promising?

Damn I love lifehacker.com

edit: removed second link, was mac only lul

last edited by reso at 14:35:47 20/May/09

Top s***, thanks reso, trying it now. Knew someone musta had this problem and fixed it!

It works. But its awful and unintuitive. Nobody has given me a solution to why the bloody play and pause button on my keyboard don't work. How do you 'queue it up' instead of making permanent playlists? Why the hell doesn't drag and drop work, within iTunes itself?

Hog, in the end, I could say the exact same things about WMP. I never use WMP, I don't like it. I'm used to iTunes. That being said, if I had a WM device and no use for iTunes I'd prolly get used to WMP and like that instead of iTunes.

I say just give it a week and you'll figure out the guts of it. Its really not that bad. Its just different like every other piece of software you've had to use.

My main dislike with iTunes is just how it forces so much other s*** on to you. QuickTime, the Apple Updater, Safari Beta's etc etc. I tried to roll my own installer from a lifehacker tut but I need all this s*** for my iphone apparently.

My main dislike with iTunes is just how it forces so much other s*** on to you. QuickTime, the Apple Updater, Safari Beta's etc etc. I tried to roll my own installer from a lifehacker tut but I need all this s*** for my iphone apparently.

For Windows users, that Safari thing is a bit cheap IMO.

You suggest I buy new f***ing hardware to solve my problem when my current logitech keyboard works fine with other players, and that's your "take a few seconds to work out the optimal way" solution?

No I wasn't suggesting that - I just meant I couldn't help you out with that specific problem ;)

Nobody has given me a solution to why the bloody play and pause button on my keyboard don't work.

When I had a MS media keyboard, it would default play WMP, rather than iTunes. I figured it was just a setting MS enforced - not a problem with iTunes per se? I assume your play/pause button works with WinAmp?

How do you 'queue it up' instead of making permanent playlists?

I don't really care about queuing songs (I'd rather use permanent playlists), but here's a solution: Just create ONE new playlist, put your first song in there that you want to listen to and play that playlist (play that first song), then go back to your library and keep adding files to the playlist to queue them.

Why the hell doesn't drag and drop work, within iTunes itself?

Maybe you've asked this question poorly, but if you can't get drag and drop to work you're definitely doing something wrong. If you want, try sorting the songs by order, then you should be able to drag and drop them into different orders, if that's what you mean you're after. This won't work with shuffle on, hopefully for reasons that you can figure out on your own.

>Hog, in the end, I could say the exact same things about WMP. I never use WMP, I don't like it. I'm used to iTunes. That being said, if I had a WM device and no use for iTunes I'd prolly get used to WMP and like that instead of iTunes. I say just give it a week and you'll figure out the guts of it. Its really not that bad. Its just different like every other piece of software you've had to use.

This is true to an extent - the functionality gaps won't go away anytime soon, but I will work out how best to use what they do provide.

I wish vendors wouldn't reinvent established basic software control cliches without good reason - and most of the wacky s*** iTunes does differently doesn't seem to help make it a better program to use, just different. That's kind of contemptible in my opinion, if you are going to make Windows software - and do your damndest to force it onto Windows users who buy your other hardware - then you should have the courtesy to follow the conventions.

I really think that Apple are also being complete jerks without good reason by closing everything in the loop down to Apple software and providing no standardised, open interfaces to other vendors. This is 2009 and that sort of shenanigans went out with the 90s - even Microsoft is sponsoring Mono to try and get a stable .Net platform out so that Silverlight can work well on Linux!

reso - got iTunesControl working after a little stuffing around but it works well.

Oh also, the drag and drop of music from your library to your phone won't work unless you tick the box "I want to manage my music/videos manually".

Once that's ticked you'll have to "resync" and lose all your music, but after that you can have ALL your mp3s in your local library but only drag and drop the ones you want to your phone.

That check box is located on the main iphone window within itunes. Where it lists the firmware version etc.

I don't really care about queuing songs (I'd rather use permanent playlists), but here's a solution: Just create ONE new playlist, put your first song in there that you want to listen to and play that playlist (play that first song), then go back to your library and keep adding files to the playlist to queue them.

That'll work, but its a bit messy, and I'll end up having to clean up all these playlists or they will end up on my iPhone, or have to be filtered out manually from the Synch..

Why the hell doesn't drag and drop work, within iTunes itself?

I'm talking about the imo overly arduous 'synch' process to get media onto your phone, not playlist management. I should be able to just drag albums or tracks from the main library into the phone without having to mess with a filtering process via the synch panel. As it is I have a laptop library of music that I just synch everything onto my phone with, and import the media from my main library (which is like 40G or something on a NAS at home, managed by XBMC).

If I got iTunes to manage the whole music library, I would need to selectively check and uncheck playlists for synch to the phone, instead of just flicking albums, playlists or artists onto the phone. I guess I was just hoping for a simpler, easier to use process for moving media onto my phone rather than a mandatory selective synchronisation exercise.

I know how to do these things in iTunes, I just think that the process is generally more awkward than it needs to be.

Oh also, the drag and drop of music from your library to your phone won't work unless you tick the box "I want to manage my music/videos manually". Once that's ticked you'll have to "resync" and lose all your music, but after that you can have ALL your mp3s in your local library but only drag and drop the ones you want to your phone. That check box is located on the main iphone window within itunes. Where it lists the firmware version etc.

reso is my new favourite poster.

I'm talking about the imo overly arduous 'synch' process to get media onto your phone, not playlist management. I should be able to just drag albums or tracks from the main library into the phone without having to mess with a filtering process via the synch panel.

That's just it. You can. You just need to check the "Manually manage music" setting in the iPhone device tab.

3dee you have to be the biggest fanboy I have ever seen. Do you work for apple?

That's just it. You can. You just need to check the "Manually manage music" setting in the iPhone device tab.

This is why reso is dreamy - it didn't take 3 posts of stop being a whiny bitch, Apple is awesome, to extract this info!

But again, the software is not intuitive. What does "manually manage" the library actually mean - I had no idea that this was the toggle to achieve the goal I wanted and this wasn't even in the Synch area, just a general toggle for the unit.

How much "manual" was to be involved? For all I knew this would remove the (awesome) way that iTunes keeps my songs all up to date and in the right place in my phone's library, which I do love the s*** out of and don't want to do manually. Will playlists still work? etc etc.

When I was trying to drag albums onto the phone, it just gave me a "no" icon with no additional information, leading me to believe that this wasn't possible. What I refer to as intuitive software would pop up a window explaining that what I was doing was not possible because of this option, and hit F1 for more information on manual management of the phone's library.

3dee you have to be the biggest fanboy I have ever seen. Do you work for apple?

Yes.

I just wish people would stop whining like little children when they have to use iTunes. You buy an Apple media device and whinge when you find it needs to be synced through iTunes?

Apparently Zunes don't go through WMP, they go through Zune PLayer or something. So Apple ain't the only one... (i could be wrong about zune **shrugs**)

Bing! 50 points!

Woot

Just re-reading your post...

I just wish people would stop whining like little children when they have to use iTunes.

hahahahahah!!!!!

You buy an Apple media device and whinge when you find it needs to be synced through iTunes? Apparently Zunes don't go through WMP, they go through Zune PLayer or something. So Apple ain't the only one... (i could be wrong about zune **shrugs**)

Put that in context 3dee. How much did Microsoft get smashed for anti-competitive behaviour just for BUNDLING a web browser with Windows, let alone force it on people?

This thread is doing wonders for my post count.

Q(._.Q)

How much did Microsoft get smashed for anti-competitive behaviour just for BUNDLING a web browser with Windows, let alone force it on people?

Apple seems to always get away with it lol. Its obvious with iTunes...

But ffs, is this software intentionally s***house?!

You will eventually get used to the sluggish s***ty behaviour, crashes and general s***ness of iTunes.

I just wish people would stop whining like little children when they have to use iTunes. You buy an Apple media device and whinge when you find it needs to be synced through iTunes?

Why do you think I should like everything about a product before purchasing it?

All purchases are a trade-off. The iPhone is better than most phones on the market in most of the categories that matter to me, but the method Apple try and force you to use of getting content onto the device is not one of those categories.

Apple seems to always get away with it lol. Its obvious with iTunes...

Yeh, but they could end up being victims of their own success. The iPhone is an excellent phone and they are really biting into the consumer market.

Combined with the strength of the iPod, if they leep using their market position to force people to use their other products they'll be on very shaky ground.

If a monopoly or very significant market share is established in the sector and Apple use it to crush WMP and Winamp then people like Nullsoft and Microsoft (irony eh) can bring a strong anti-competitive suit against them and force them to open up the device or pay massive fines.

fyi, i can use explorer to drag tunes to my mp3 player

i deliberately didnt buy an apple product so i didnt have to use itunes which is a steaming pile of poo

I installed itunes recently to see how good their music selection/quality is compared to bigpond music. It seems to be more centralised around purchasing music, creating a playlist and syncing it with apple devices rather than being an actual media player.

I don't have ff/rw keys on my keyboard but I do have a play/pause button and it works just fine with itunes sitting in my task bar and firefox as the main window. I'm using an MS natural 4000 thing.

It seems to be more centralised around purchasing music

the Genius Sidebar is pretty sneaky too...

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/148219/genius-recommendations.png

preview and buy buttons right there... gets me every time.

but yeah, when I used windows I hated iTunes, now that I'm on os x it's just a kickarse music organiser/player - I'd use it even if it didn't have the sync to iphone.

Why the change? I'd say it's the non-standard UI elements in windows, but the only UI standard windows has is that there is no standard - and I think Safari is nice in windows, and it's the same.

Quicktime for Windows is still ugly, which is a shame, because in os x it's elegant as and makes all media workflows simple and painless - and qt is just a container, so I don't know why avi/wmv doesn't work as well for Windows. working with video on windows is arse.

back to setting up my opensolaris, zfs mirror -> iscsi -> hfs+ box! yes, more acronyms makes it better.

Genius sends info about what I listen to to aliens who wish to anal probe me so I disable it.

edit: also I'm not sure why you'd hate it under windows and like it under osx other than being another mac f***** because your screenshot looks exactly like mine does and I'm running windows. The only difference is I have the standard file/tools/options/help/whatever menus most windows apps do.

last edited by whoop at 19:03:49 20/May/09

nah I'd say it's the non-standard UI elements in windows, but the only UI standard windows has is that there is no standard, so that can't be it. it's probably bad memories of poor performance on windows years ago when I used it, compared to foobar.

I mean, I'm a mac f*****! Just cus you suck at ra3 whoop, don't hate on me

You can still use Genius but have the sidebar turned off.

You can still use Genius but have the sidebar turned off.

Yeah. I think it's a great feature though. I just think it's funny that its convenient and interesting for me, and it also happens to make it a little bit easier to give them money.

also... not that this is the place for this, but I'm excited:

setting up my opensolaris, zfs mirror -> iscsi -> hfs+ box

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/148219/opensolaris-zfs-iscsi.png

SUCCESS!

opensolaris, zfs mirror -> iscsi -> hfs+ box

lolwut?!

nah I'd say it's the non-standard UI elements in windows, but the only UI standard windows has is that there is no standard, so that can't be it. it's probably bad memories of poor performance on windows years ago when I used it, compared to foobar.

It's the non-standard elements which can slow down a UI in Windows since Apple has to override the default (and fast) drawing of the standard elements.

Mac OS X software uses user-interface definition files called NIBs (short for NeXTSTEP Interface Builder) and after looking in the Windows iTunes install folder, I found out they use NIBs in the Windows version (possibly only slightly altered Mac files) so maybe the "emulation" of using these NIBs is helping to make it a piece o s*** to run.

lolwut?!

homebrew NAS with a fancy mirror raid that can be used as a time machine volume. Win!

that's interesting re the nibs. considering how much cocoa they would've ported across then, I wonder how long it will be until Windows will be an xcode build target.. hmmm.

the problem with buying a zune is that WMP and Zune Player software are really good. If the iphone OS is so good, why do they fail so hard at a basic music player.

I've tried it a couple times over the years, and it's s***house, almost as bad as Quicktime.

Im not sure what everyone is crying about with Itunes, I'm using it on a Hackintosh and it works fine, maybe im doing it wrong, but it was easy to import my mp3's fix up some missing/wrong tags and sync with the iphone.

I click an album and click play and the songs play in the album order, and if i want a mix of songs I just goto the shuffle thing.

Maybe its the windows version that sucks, but on a mac I havent had any problems with it at all.

I wonder if its actually different at all on a Mac.

It would explain why people go so f***ing odd when they switch to a Mac if there is a subliminal message convincing them that everything is awesome and wonderful and great and Steve isn't really a douche!

It would explain why people go so f***ing odd when they switch to a Mac if there is a subliminal message convincing them that everything is awesome and wonderful and great and Steve isn't really a douche!

Huh yeah maybe, Im not using an actual mac though, so hopefully the brainwashing hardware is in the actual machine.

People like their macs because they paid a lot for them. Like when you go to see stand up comedy and you only laugh because you paid to laugh.

the problem with buying a zune is that WMP and Zune Player software are really good. If the iphone OS is so good, why do they fail so hard at a basic music player.

As far as my experience goes, they didn't fail at a basic music player...

It doesn't matter whether you don't like it, but in the end, people like the software they can understand. I'm sure if I went to WMP as my media player and music organiser i'd be hatin'.

I wonder if its actually different at all on a Mac.

I'm pretty sure its the same functionality across the board. I think the difference is that its not a piece of s*** on the Mac (i.e. it works properly).

It would explain why people go so f***ing odd when they switch to a Mac if there is a subliminal message convincing them that everything is awesome and wonderful and great and Steve isn't really a douche!

Lol. The funny thing about going to a Mac is you forget what a BSOD is or a driver incompatibility. I got my Mac and haven't needed to do jacks*** to it for it to work properly. I turn my Mac on and use the bloody thing instead of fixing. Just my experience though...

Maybe its the windows version that sucks, but on a mac I havent had any problems with it at all.

I'm pretty sure its the Windows version that sucks, coz the iTunes I use does what I need.

last edited by 3dee at 08:37:58 21/May/09

Lol. The funny thing about going to a Mac is you forget what a BSOD is or a driver incompatibility. I got my Mac and haven't needed to do jacks*** to it for it to work properly. I turn my Mac on and use the bloody thing instead of fixing. Just my experience though...

Strangely enough, put some [strike] tags on Mac and insert Windows7 in its place and that describes my experience pretty much exactly.

I've manually upgraded one driver since I got it, and that was purely out of habit when I heard that NVIDIA released some new Windows7 WHQL drivers. With the exception of the iPhone and iTunes (ironic much?) I haven't had to load any drivers or software for anything I've plugged in to make it work with the OS.

iTunes is fine if you let it do its thing.

Its not like media player or winamp, trying to use it like it is will frustrate you.

Now that I have a handle on it, I find winamp and media player less useful for my music.

Which is fine, seriously ... unless you want to enjoy your iPhone without jailbreaking it, and not be converted to the iTunes way.

Which is sort of my point - if I don't want to do things according to the Jobs Vision then there's no real option. Which is a bit evil for a company that has such a fluffy care bear nice guy image.

Strangely enough, put some [strike] tags on Mac and insert Windows7 in its place and that describes my experience pretty much exactly.

f***it, i can say the same thing about vista and my newish pc (year old)

never had any driver issues, no bsods, very limited setting up after some initial issues, which were resolved by msy (bios update)

Strangely enough, put some [strike] tags on Mac and insert Windows7 in its place and that describes my experience pretty much exactly.

I'm gonna try boot camping Windows 7 cause it looks actually real nice.

Apple's philosophy is they want to control the overall experience, from the initial sale of the computer through to using the computer through to supporting the computer. Its not that its evil so much, its just when they write Windows software, they are using the same philosophy, which fundamentally breaks when they ARENT in control of anything bar the application. Thats the big difference between the windows and mac experience.

In the larger scheme of things (mac vs's pc), Apple having control of the entire lifecycle really does help from my point of view. They can control their market segments and directly map them to hardware skews. From there they can specifically cater the software to work with the known hardware for that machine. And when they service that machine they can make it cheaper and faster because they aren't dealing with potentially 10000 different versions of hardware configurations. When your paying for a mac, a lot of the cost goes towards this unified experience. If there isn't a hardware skew that suits your needs, to put it simply Apple isn't interested in your business...yet :)

And they use this philosophy for the iPhone too. The iPhone OS doesn't go across multiple hardware platforms (unlike winmobile, s60, android etc), they don't allow people messing with the hardware, they force you to use iTunes... simply because they want to control the entire lifecycle experience. The people who are complaining about iTunes aren't complaining about how it interacts with the iPhone (apart from minor things), they are complaining about how iTunes interacts with other non-apple software.

With regards to the initial "my logitech keyboard doesn't work with itunes" issue, blame the logitech software that talks between the keyboard and the software, its not Apples problem.

/rant

I didn't have any major problems with Vista Spook, but I did need to hunt down some drivers for some older hardware.

7's device management is a step up imo, probably because vendors have improved drivers to deal with the security changes, UAC, HAL overhaul etc. that came with Vista and upset so many people.

I put 7 clean onto my old man's 3-4 year old computer after a format and didn't need to install a single driver manually. This computer is a total mishmash of hardware picked up from various places over the years, and last time I put XP on it for him I made a disk with like 12 driver packages on it just to make it work.

Although I did need to ask Windows to check again via device manager for some of the mobo and USB etc drivers, I'm thinking that it might not have had internets during install or that may have been covered too.

I hear you can use XP drivers on 7 right? This is one of the wisest things Microsoft has done IMO..

I put 7 clean onto my old man's 3-4 year old computer after a format and didn't need to install a single driver manually.

This is good news, cause Vista runs like a piece of s*** on my dad's semi-old computer.

And they use this philosophy for the iPhone too. The iPhone OS doesn't go across multiple hardware platforms (unlike winmobile, s60, android etc), they don't allow people messing with the hardware, they force you to use iTunes... simply because they want to control the entire lifecycle experience. The people who are complaining about iTunes aren't complaining about how it interacts with the iPhone (apart from minor things), they are complaining about how iTunes interacts with other non-apple software.

The 'controlling the experience' argument doesn't really hold up this century. Again I come back to Microsoft - they aren't allowed to exclude other vendors from interacting with their s*** or face humongous fines.

With regards to the initial "my logitech keyboard doesn't work with itunes" issue, blame the logitech software that talks between the keyboard and the software, its not Apples problem.

It works with Winamp, WMP, XBMC, VNC - its sending standard media control commands to the system that other software vendors can listen for and pick up just fine. AND it works if iTunes is the active Window, so they are trying to handle it but don'e know their arses from their elbows.

So nah, you're flat out undeniably wrong .. Its iTunes being hypergay and not doing what practically every other media player can manage, and what iTunes CAN manage with the help of a third party helper module!

This is good news, cause Vista runs like a piece of s*** on my dad's semi-old computer.

7 has improved memory management, so its less of a punch in the guts. But I'd still recommend thinking twice about plonking it onto a 1G or less RAM machine - I stuck an extra 512 into my old man's 1G unit as he plays warcraft and it was sitting on about 1200 used so thrashed to buggery in Dalaran a lot.

WoW in Dalaran is an 800Meg footprint though so that's not really Window's fault :)

As fun as this is I have to ban myself from QGL today, busy busy busy - argue at you later!

AND it works if iTunes is the active Window, so they are trying to handle it but don'e know their arses from their elbows

iTunes is being lazy and not monitoring the keyboard directly for media keystrokes. It can do this, but the piss easy way is to just wait for Windows to send their window the keystrokes (which requires the window to be focused).

its just when they write Windows software, they are using the same philosophy, which fundamentally breaks when they ARENT in control of anything bar the application. Thats the big difference between the windows and mac experience.

The 'controlling the experience' argument doesn't really hold up this century. Again I come back to Microsoft - they aren't allowed to exclude other vendors from interacting with their s*** or face humongous fines.

Simul's right. On Mac OS iPhone owners are none-the-wiser (since they're highly likely to be using iTunes in the first place), but Apple's stance toward supporting Windows causes the problem that many of you dudes are complaining about.

I f***ing HATED iTunes in it's steaming pile of f***ing priest raped fistula a****** but then after I learned how to use it, it's pretty darn good.

My only gripe was the dragging stuff to the iPhone which I found out in this thread can be sorted with manually managing music and files but it was never that big of a deal, instead I just setup a separate playlist for my iPhone and dragged songs to that.

One awesome third party addition for iTunes that I think everyone must have is called iTunesFolderWatch which watches your library folder and if you copy files into it, it's automatically added into iTunes. I found that easier than dragging the files into iTunes.

Simul's right. On Mac OS iPhone owners are none-the-wiser (since they're highly likely to be using iTunes in the first place), but Apple's stance toward supporting Windows causes the problem that many of you dudes are complaining about.

Damnit I have work to do!

It doesn't matter about the vision, or whether users are none the wiser (again see my point on browser integration). Its entirely unethical.

The entire original anti-trust suit against Microsoft was BECAUSE users were often none the wiser that IE was not the only way to access the web. Leveraging a monopoly from one sector (OS) into another (software) is considered anti-competitive.

Microsoft are not allowed to push for complete control over their OS and how it works with other software at the exclusion of other vendors which I 100% agree with. It stifles innovation and competition, and they have a nasty as s*** record of deliberately breaking competitor's products.

Apple shouldn't be allowed to either.

Do you really wnat a world where iTunes is the only media player because everyone has an iPhone, and nobody can be bothered with alternatives? Monopolies are bad, period.

This s*** is revolting. How can Apple proudly proclaim their support and use of Open Source when they blatantly close source, interop and standards when it commercially suits them so they can exclude competitors? f*** Apple.

I just wish this iPhone wasn't so damn dreamy.

last edited by Hogfather at 10:08:41 21/May/09

In Vista, where do you go to see how much memory is being used?

I have Vista on my laptop (1.8 dual core, 2gig RAM) and it ran sweet when it was new but now can be really frustratingly slow.

Opening control panel, for example, takes ages. Even double clicking on a picture results in s***ty delay until it's displyed full screen.

Any tips on sussing out why, and ways to fix, it has become a slug?

I use my powerbook exclusively now days and itunes does everything I need.

I also let it manage my music automatically. So when I add songs to my library it copies the files and organises them into my itunes folder. Saves me doing it.

And now I got an iPhone its even better. Remote app ftw!

In Vista, where do you go to see how much memory is being used?

Uh, CTRL+ALT+DEL?

You're so behind the times 3dee, Ctrl+Shift+Escape!

(and then the Performace tab, mission)

Cheers.

I'm no computer guru, in fact I now hate computers. In 2009 I just expect the f***ing things to work as they should and work fast.

I don't want to waste my time searching for settings and tweaking this and fiddling that. Just work ffs.

You're so behind the times 3dee, Ctrl+Shift+Escape!

Well actually that's what I use... Ctrl+Alt+Del is the more "official" way lol.

I'm no computer guru, in fact I now hate computers. In 2009 I just expect the f***ing things to work as they should and work fast.

That's why I got a Mac.... **runs and hides**

I'm out, this is getting silly and the opposing points have firmed - not a lot has really been explored in the last few posts aside from "No", "Yes", "No".

Nice discussion tho MacBoys! :)

The first person to shout "mac fanboys" is the one who starts the flamewar... So what if some people enjoy using Mac products.

hah 3dee, you sound like you're selling them when you refer to them as 'mac products'. I almost expect it to be prefaced with 'quality' and suffixed with 'and services' :)

I get referred to as a rabid .Net dev or Windows fanboy from time to time; you have to expect it if you're going to stand up and beat your chest about this stuff, especially if you work in a related industry or have an obvious bias.

I'm probably a Blizzard fanboy too.

Example:

infi - Libreral fanboy
MrHardware - LPG fanboy
Spook - Perl fanboy
mongie - Plasma fanboy
trog - id fanboy

etc. etc.

Its just a sily label - it only stings if you let it!

    <3

<3 perl <3

    <3

perl ahaha

hah 3dee, you sound like you're selling them when you refer to them as 'mac products'. I almost expect it to be prefaced with 'quality' and suffixed with 'and services' :)

I must admit Steve Jobs' keynotes have brainwashed me into saying the word 'product' but at least not as brainwashed as saying "isn't it great?", "cool, huh?"

Lol. The funny thing about going to a Mac is you forget what a BSOD is or a driver incompatibility. I got my Mac and haven't needed to do jacks*** to it for it to work properly. I turn my Mac on and use the bloody thing instead of fixing. Just my experience though...

Could just be that apple controls the hardware their s*** runs on so there isn't the diversity you have with PC's that run windows? I bet if there was only one kind of motherboard, one kind of video card and one kind of cpu and ram and only one possible combination of all elements in a PC windows would have no blue screens or driver issues either.



On the down side I think the brainwashing has got to me and I'm thinking of buying an ipod. What's the battery life like on them? We're having a radio station fight at work, I hate the radio station the other dude likes and he hates the one I like and we both hate our favourite radio stations at the moment because they're both playing crap. I figure an easy solution is to just get an ipod (or similar) & listen to my own s*** but I'd need the battery to last at least 9 hours (yes, my work day really is 9 hours long, 9.5 actually) do they make one that lasts that long or is it wishful thinking? It can be a solid state machine and only say 4gig?

I plug mine into a set of speaker at work ... they are on power the whole time

Calling someone an Apple Fanboy is just an easy way to ignore someone's like of Apple products. I've been labeled a Fanboy and the only Apple products I have ever owned are iPods, the iPhone and iTunes. It's not my fault that my experiences with 3 Apple products have been f***ing awesome - it's Apple's.

Could just be that apple controls the hardware their s*** runs on so there isn't the diversity you have with PC's that run windows? I bet if there was only one kind of motherboard, one kind of video card and one kind of cpu and ram and only one possible combination of all elements in a PC windows would have no blue screens or driver issues either.

Meh, I haven't had any issues for a fair while really with PC's and windows (have with Linux but personally I find that to be half the fun setting up linux on a PC.. Screwing around and re-compiling and messing around till it all works). All I've had is hardware failure which, I'm told, is common for anything from any company ever (yes even Macs heh).

I plug mine into a set of speaker at work ... they are on power the whole time

Not really an option for me as I'm on the move all day around the shop so I'd need mobility + earbuds.

I hear you can use XP drivers on 7 right? This is one of the wisest things Microsoft has done IMO..

Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't tried. It's compatible with Vista drivers though.

Don't really see a need for compatibility with XP drivers though. I never had an issue finding drivers with Vista, and with Windows 7, I don't even need to look for them.

Don't really see a need for compatibility with XP drivers though. I never had an issue finding drivers with Vista, and with Windows 7, I don't even need to look for them.

When I used Vista on my gaming machine a while back, I had no problems at all for the most part. Its just that my dad's computer hates Vista so compatibility with 'working' drivers would be nice to know about.

Its kinda strange coz the mobo he has is a Vista compatible motherboard, but there's numerous problems. I put on 64-bit Vista and now I realise that 32-bit version of Windows 7 would be a safer choice for his computer (and my Mac mini).

For one, on current Vista install, the GF7800 agp I put in it doesn't seem to like "2D" mode and splays horizontal line artefacts all over the screen. Luckily Vista runs under a Direct3D renderer so its only when briefly swapping out for a game to start.

Other problem is that the computer won't shut down (and gets the above artefacts while shutting down). It'll eventually BSOD after a while on the Shutting Down screen.

I'm fairly confident 32-bit Windows 7 will be much better for his semi-aging PC (even though most of it is compatible with Vista), cause he's pretty fed up with the problems.

I haven't had problems as such with Vista, just s***ty slow performance in the last few months. It was ok when I got it. It looks to using over 1gig of RAM just idling with nothing open - this seems kind of high?

I'm tossing up getting a new hard-drive (which is also bigger) and putting on XP or maybe keeping Vista and upping the RAM (currently 2gig).

Will upgrading the RAM make any noticeable difference?

Again, it s***s me that the faster computers get (cpu and RAM) the slower they seem to go due to recent bloated s***ty software.

Calling someone an Apple Fanboy is just an easy way to ignore someone's like of Apple products. I've been labeled a Fanboy and the only Apple products I have ever owned are iPods, the iPhone and iTunes. It's not my fault that my experiences with 3 Apple products have been f***ing awesome

This has been my experience too.. and many more peoples, Apple comes out on top of customer satisfaction surveys. I think labelling 'apple fanboy' is a general way of rationalizing this, rather than accepting that apple's products could be, you know..awesome.

I'm tossing up getting a new hard-drive (which is also bigger) and putting on XP or maybe keeping Vista and upping the RAM (currently 2gig).

up the RAM I guess. I can't understand 2gb not being enough though for general desktop stuff. I recently upped my gf's lappy from 2gb to 4gb, but she has a tendency to run photoshop, indesign, word processing(pages), and virtualised windows (with autocad running) often. so she pretty much needed it. :D

I read an article ages ago about apple not accepting any code commits that causes an interruption/lag to what a user is doing, and spending lots of man-hours just to make sure that when you click on something, the result is always instant - those sorts of optimisations. the sort of little things that add up to make working on the desktop snappy. can't find it though.

I read an article ages ago about apple not accepting any code commits that causes an interruption/lag to what a user is doing, and spending lots of man-hours just to make sure that when you click on something, the result is always instant - those sorts of optimisations. the sort of little things that add up to make working on the desktop snappy. can't find it though.

Well they sure as s*** out-source their iTunes for Windows development then.

I prefer "John Howard fanboy" please.

Noted.

In a pinch, will "JWH dick licker" do? :D

Well they sure as s*** out-source their iTunes for Windows development then.

Possible. What's the other option, they used an OS X programming team not accustomed to windows programming?That considered, they've done a reasonable job at porting.

edit: did I say reasonable? how about passable...

last edited by Farseeker at 11:12:32 22/May/09

Yeh I guess ... but it still sounds weak to not have experienced Win32 guys on what is one of their flagship products for Windows. Half the point of iTunes on Windows is to demonstrate how elegant, shiny and it-just-works the Mac world is.

Every piece of Apple software on a PC is an invitation to try out more of their s***.

I'm pretty sure that they ran an advertising campaign around this. Something like "You use iTunes, you already know how to use a Mac!" ... They might have found some money to make it a bit of a better product first!

I totally agree. they have marketed ipod-itunes that way. but it wasn't ipod-itunes that sold me over to mac, it just turned me off it. It was screencasts of people actually using a mac that convinced me to give it a go. I think the iphone is a better example to mass-market what the apple difference could be. Winmobile->iPhone is quite similar to Windows->OS X.

But yes, with $23 billion in cash reserves, improving their windows ports would surely be a worthwhile investment.

The iPhone - Win Mobile comparison reinforces the need to stay in Windows for me. If a Mac is ANYTHING like the iPhone for business users its not appropriate at all! Obviously its not as bad as the iPhone, but you did make the comparison ;)

The iPhone is a very fun bit of kit but if I really needed to do a lot of business stuff on it I'd have to turn it into an iPod and get a Win Mo or Blackberry. There are just too many functionality gaps and non-productive aspects to it, even with it being at a 2.0 release.

For example ... feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, I may well be. This should exclude the known enhancements in 3.0, by the way.

- No bluetooth keyboard support.
- No Office Mobile.
- Synchronisation with a single device only. Why the f*** do they do this?
- No file synchronisation. Moving files to and from it is ridiculously awkward and aside from images outright impossible without a 3rd party app.
- Can you print from it?
- Emailing is very awkward, and attaching more than one pic to an email appears to be impossible.
- No Flash support. Steve Jobs might claim it is dead but there is still a s***load of Flash on the web that you just cannot view on the iPhone.

etc etc

But f*** is it ever shiny and the screen does sparkly whooshy things when I touch it :)

the screen does sparkly whooshy things when I touch it :)

And that's all that matters.

- No bluetooth keyboard support.
- No Office Mobile.
- Synchronisation with a single device only. Why the f*** do they do this?
- No file synchronisation. Moving files to and from it is ridiculously awkward and aside from images outright impossible without a 3rd party app.
- Can you print from it?
- Emailing is very awkward, and attaching more than one pic to an email appears to be impossible.
- No Flash support. Steve Jobs might claim it is dead but there is still a s***load of Flash on the web that you just cannot view on the iPhone.

There's QuickOffice for iPhone now. I dunno how easy it is use though.

Do you mean iTunes can only sync one device? Cause iTunes can sync any number of devices...

Emailing will be greatly fixed in 3.0 (copy and paste multiple images at once, even full HTML chunks includign form elements, straight into Mail).

Flash is a maybe for me, but hey.

But f*** is it ever shiny and the screen does sparkly whooshy things when I touch it :)

haha :) yes, shiny helps.

microsoft's approach to mobile - "we have all these business users with lots of money. our software has lots of cruft around it, but that's ok, lets pack as much boring office stuff into a mobile device as we can. Then It Will Be Awesome."

apple's approach to mobile - "lets go from the start - what makes a mobile device useful. we can carefully add more features through software updates, especially to keep those annoying 'enterprise' people happy. yes, that means we really should support exchange guys.. yes, I'm sorry."

I like the apple approach because from the start, if they get it right, they would have something that's more useful than anything else on the market even if it does less.

and I think they have succeeded.

iPhone Manufacturer Apple Ranks Highest in Business Wireless Smartphone
Customer Satisfaction

I take out of the comparison that an apple product has less junk, and is better at making less crufty envirnoments, where stuff works better and the focus is on what matters to make the technology useful.

btw, you may find this interesting - http://www.tuaw.com/2009/05/07/citrix-receiver-for-iphone/


last edited by Farseeker at 12:34:11 22/May/09

About 30% of my business these days is web, and being unable to view anything done in Flash while on the road is a pain. On the upside, Silverlight is apparently coming to the iPhone :D

Do you mean iTunes can only sync one device? Cause iTunes can sync any number of devices...

If I take my phone home I can't synch on my wife's laptop without clobbering my existing stuff in the synch category. For example, if I synch photos or music via iTunes at home I can't then synch them at work - it claims it will smash everything from the library if I do!

This seems to be a bit backwards - I have multiple computers and I carry my iPhone with me, not the other way around :)

last edited by Hogfather at 12:34:19 22/May/09

we can carefully add more features through software updates, especially to keep those annoying 'enterprise' people happy

And this is why Apple will remain a niche market, and primarily for consumers - this is not bad thing, just an observation. Business just can't accept being a second-rate player in this stuff, and its business that determines who the winners are.

last edited by Hogfather at 12:42:08 22/May/09

On the upside, Silverlight is apparently coming to the iPhone :D

Whaa? So Flash isn't, but Silverlight is? Isn't Silverlight based on the .NET framework?

If I take my phone home I can't synch on my wife's laptop without clobbering my existing stuff in the synch category. For example, if I synch photos or music via iTunes at home I can't then synch them at work - it claims it will smash everything from the library if I do!

Oh you mean sync one device with two computers. Yeah, then it gets a bit tricky. Automatic sync removes the ability to add stuff on multiple computers.

Yeh Microsoft is really serious about Silverlight - I mentioned somewhre that they are working with the Mono guys to try and get it onto Linux.

But looking into it more closely, it was a f***ing lame April Fools article I read. They should really mark that s*** up properly after the 'fun' is over. f*** I hate April Fools.

Apple will remain a niche market, and primarily for consumers - this is not bad thing, just an observation.

I don't agree. while their philosophy isn't easy for opinionated business users to swallow, it's for their own good (less IT infrastructure mass, more happiness and time spent where it matters).

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/04/13/iphone_found_ready_for_enterprise_better_than_blackberry.html
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008240 (as above, i think you missed it)

f*** I hate April Fools.

rofl.

Farseeker: we've come down to agree / disagree on that one I guess then :)

Like anything, there are a mass of articles one way or the other on this stuff - quoting them is a good read but doesn't prove anything really. I just personally know a fair few business / industry / finance etc people who went iPhone for the sex and went back to Blackberry (and in some cases Win Mo) for boring old beige productivity.

I do miss my mini fold out bluetooth keyboard tho :(

Granted I work in a very 'latest technology' driven industry (online media, marketing, etc) but the vast majority of people I do business with use an iPhone. My opinion is that as a business user I want just 3 things from a mobile device;

- Make and receive calls.
- Check my email & calender.
- Browse the web.

Apart from Telco issues with the calls, the rest are nailed by the iPhone. It's got the best email and calender client I've seen (we use Exchange) and the best mobile web browser even with it's lack of Flash which is f***ing annoying since I need my *tube.com for those lonely nights.

Hogfather: yeah, of course - it's been fun. No really.

I hope I can use my bluetooth keyboard in OS 3.0 just for the novelty of it :P

Iphones are great for business users, more so the top end of business though, the ones that just want to check email browse the net abit. Sure email on winmo is ok, but it doesnt even do html emails, the exchange support and general email I find way better on an iphone, and i've used both for a fair ammount of time.

Ticman is spot on. More techy type users probably like winmo more becuase they can customise the device more.

went iPhone for the sex and went back to Blackberry (and in some cases Win Mo) for boring old beige productivity.

I don't know about Windows Mobile's future, but I think its apparent that Microsoft taking more of an interest in user experience and user interface in their software which is a great thing. Windows 7 is a prime example of this.

So much of Windows (inc Vista) was full of ten to fifteen year old software design and nothing much had actually changed and for me personally it was getting very dull to use Windows. A bare-bones Windows install had very basic capabilities. None were fleshed out like they seem to be in Windows 7.

Look at Wordpad and Paint in Windows 7 for example. They're much more improved and Wordpad is a decent word processor out of the box.

/end-philosophical-insight

15 years before Vista was released was the release of Windows 3.0 3dee.

I know what you're saying, but there wasn't a lot in common between Vista and old 3.0 in terms of interface :)

I know what you're saying, but there wasn't a lot in common between Vista and old 3.0 in terms of interface :)

Well let's say nothing much had changed except icons from Win95 to WinVista. Improving the 'bare-bones' functionality of the standard utilities will only help to make the operating system that much easier and more pleasant to use out of the box for customers on a tight software budget. Office isn't suitable for everyone with a small wallet...

Mind you I havent really tested these basic utilities out yet but they looked improved thanks to the ribbon interface and whatnot.

last edited by 3dee at 13:57:30 22/May/09

Well let's say nothing much had changed except icons from Win95 to WinVista

Lets not.

Lets not.

I mean the basic programs like Wordpad and Paint etc.

I'm not sure to be honest; I guess not? I personally wouldn't have put Paint up there on my list of things to improve in Windows.

One of the things about Windows is that there is s***loads of stuff out there that people make to work on it like Paint.Net and Open Office, and most OEM guys chuck in Works for free anyway - which has been constantly revised.

There hasn't really been a compelling reason to redo the utter basic apps I'm thinking. Anyone who needs a better text editor probably has a favourite that they install anyway.

I'd rather the OS engineers work on stuff that matters for the OS and leave the apps guys to work on .. apps.

Eh, it all makes it that much better in the end. More polish is more polish. And yes Paint and Wordpad aren't "vital to be updated" but I think its about time they at least did something.

I'd rather the OS engineers work on stuff that matters for the OS and leave the apps guys to work on .. apps.

From what I've seen, it looks they've managed this anyway.

Sure email on winmo is ok, but it doesnt even do html emails, the exchange support and general email I find way better on an iphone, and i've used both for a fair ammount of time.

Wanted to check this before I replied - I sent myself a HTML-formatted email to my WinMo 6 device tonight just fine, colours font sizes etc etc? Unless you mean formatting the email using HTML or something, but I don't see an option to do that on the iPhone?

I probably wouldn't use it if it was there - a mobile device is for bashing out a quick message not composing a gorgeous rich text memo :)

Unless you mean formatting the email using HTML or something, but I don't see an option to do that on the iPhone?

No option, its just does it, when u read an email on an iphone, it looks like what the email would be on a pc or through hotmail etc, on winmo, when u get the same email, all u see is the text, no images etc.

IMO, the iphone is way better for email reading and web browsing.

Running Windows 7 from my Mac mini and its pretty damn awesome.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3586/0663841700.jpg

lol @ this thread coming down to mac vs pc. Mac users not budging from their standpoint, PC users defending their camp ground. It's like some sort of epic battle that should be fought in sparta.

There hasn't really been a compelling reason to redo the utter basic apps I'm thinking. Anyone who needs a better text editor probably has a favourite that they install anyway.

It would be nice to see some kind of editor similar to ultraedit bundled with the OS. I can't remember which editor in linux gives me wood, I think it might be 'kate'.


last edited by whoop at 22:29:57 22/May/09

Damn straight it would be nice. But microsoft isn't allowed to bundle fully-fledged software packages with the OS remember, it's anti-competitive.

lol @ this thread coming down to mac vs pc. Mac users not budging from their standpoint, PC users defending their camp ground. It's like some sort of epic battle that should be fought in sparta.

One thing I've noticed in a lot of Mac v PC debates is that the Mac fans will rationalise every bad decision by Apple and try to make it seem good where as Windows users will just say "Meh, Microsoft are a pack of a******s, wish they didn't do that".

The other thing is that whenever anything is said about Windows, or even computers in general, Apple fanboys always feel compelled to try to sell you Apple products for some reason.

It always reminds me of those religious types that try to preach to you about how much better everything is for them at every chance they get.

"Meh, Microsoft are a pack of a******s, wish they didn't do that".

There's numerous things Apple have or haven't done which have been stupid or annoying. Like the entire 1-2.0 firmware of iPhone lacking what 3.0 will be providing.

The fact that even contact and photo exchange via Bluetooth is still not in the operating system is another that s***s me off about Apple. 3.0 is a massive improvement but its still lacking some very trivial functionalities such as this.

As far as the iPhone goes though, what they *have* done has been executed in a much better fashion than previous competitors, as evidenced by its success and "zomg iphone" factor by people interested in them. Pretty much all iPhone owners I know have no intention of returning to any "other" phone so Apple must be doing something right.