Can't wait!

Been listening about this on the news all week.

http://www.myschool.edu.au/

The My School website (www.myschool.edu.au) provides profiles of almost 10,000 Australian schools that can be searched by the school’s location, sector or name. The website provides statistical and contextual information, as well as NAPLAN (www.naplan.edu.au) results that can be compared with results from statistically similar schools across Australia.

Each school has a profile page which includes:

• a short description of the school
• number of students
• number of teachers
• attendance rates
• senior secondary school outcomes
• school-level data about students’ backgrounds
• school Index of Community Socio-Educational Advantage (ICSEA) value
• a link to the school’s website and, where appropriate, a link to the school sector or system to which the school belongs
• school NAPLAN results compared with the national average and the average results of statistically similar schools.

Other pages show:
• the percentage of students achieving at each band on NAPLAN tests compared with the percentage of students at that band nationally and in statistically similar schools
• school results on NAPLAN compared with the results of up to 60 statistically similar schools
• a list of up to 20 schools located nearest to the school selected.

My School enables you to:
• access a snapshot of a school using nationally consistent indicators
• compare the performance of students in a school with the performance of students in statistically similar schools across Australia and nationally
• search for schools nearby to the school displayed, with hyperlinks to the profile page of that school
• identify and learn about high-performing schools.

I think it's controversial and rightly so. It's not the full answer but it's a step forward.

yer, i sort of agree as well.

schools that are struggling (with attendance and results) will be in plain sight and something can be done about it

The only problem with this stuff is the tests are currently "unfair".
Queensland kids have done a year less school. eg. the year 3 exam. NSW kids have been at school for 3.5 years, the queensland ones 2.5. That's a significant difference at that end of the world.

They also are only of value when there is a national cirriculum AND teachers teach that cirriculum and not "how to pass naplan".

And if they start using this for performance pay for teachers you can almost guanentee teachers teach the test.

Heh, shame it doesn't work:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/bad-start-for-my-schools-website-20100128-mzc5.html

so... schools will try to look bad to get more funding?
but there's no way i'm sending my kid to a s*** school

i'm confused

Yeah the sites down, some techs having fun this morning trying to get the thing back up and he probably told them they didnt have enough bandwidth/server capacity to handle the launch.

This will only end in teachers coaching kids how to get good marks on Exams. The Kids wont actually learn anything.

Yet another stupid idea for the education department thrusted on unexpecting teachers. The fact that they change the cirriculum before the old one has even been fully implemented is another retarded thing the Governments do to look like they give a s*** about education.

Working for me now.

My primary school has 96% attendance and better than average over statistically similar school across all levels of Grade 3 & 5.

Doesn't mean s*** for me, of course, since I went there so long ago. But it was considered one of the best public primary schools at the time.

My first high school (Year 7 & 8) was considered a dump and that has below average NAPLAN results for all categories, equal to average only in two categories.

My second high school was private Christian Brothers one that was considered very good, that has average across the board.

My third high school was public and considered good for a public school and that has well below average across the board! Ahaha. Awesome.

I think they way they have presented the results is good.

I agree there are gaping holes in the system - but now the pressure is on the Government to use the results and get some a real National curriculum going.

I know from moving from Hobart to Melbourne in Year 11 that teachers struggled to put me in some classes - maths in particular. I did all three maths classes, Further Maths, Maths Methods and Specialist Maths, which is ridiculous. I also studied Macbeth twice which was really fukn annoying.

I really don't know about publicly ranking schools, doesn't it just encourage people with the means to move to the catchments for "better" schools creating a feedback where the worst schools just get worse and worse??

Now for the dickwaving, my school is substantially above the average of all schools and similar schools plus we got 20 Indigineous kids.....wtf do they list that statistic??

I find the ICSEA stat interesting; my school is 1079.

The Index of Community Socio-Educational Advantage (ICSEA) is a special measure that enables meaningful and fair comparisons to be made across schools. The variables that make up ICSEA include socio-economic characteristics of the small areas where students live (in this case an ABS census collection district), as well as whether a school is in a regional or remote area, and the proportion of Indigenous students enrolled at the school. It has been developed specifically for the My School website for the purpose of identifying schools serving similar student populations. The average ICSEA value is 1000. Most schools have an ICSEA score between 900 and 1100. ICSEA should be interpreted with the assistance of the About ICSEA Fact Sheet, ICSEA Technical Paper and relevant FAQs.

last edited by imitation at 10:21:55 28/Jan/10

I was interested like Pinky.

My primary school is below average and has 92% attendance. The latter is least surprising.

I could compare it to other schools in the district but I can't be bothered using the site.

High school is substantially above average, with attendance at 97%. That's not at all surprising.

seems poor old cairns state high didnt fare too well with attendence or results.

freshwater primary is tracking ok though!

Can't get on...I really don't know about publicly ranking schools, doesn't it just encourage people with the means to move to the catchments for "better" schools creating a feedback where the worst schools just get worse and worse??

Yeah, the schools are fully ranked in my opinion. I don't understand what 'League Tables' are but these rankings must be pretty damn close.

You can only rank schools that are 'statistically similar' which takes into account socio-economic factors. I couldn't find out exactly what those factors are, but I guess average household income, stuff like that.

When they were discussing it on Hack on triple j last night there was an interesting institute that reckons it's better to rank and track 'progress' - that is the new NAPLAN minus the old NAPLAN to show that a school is powering ahead. Schools that are stable will be still clear from that ranking. I guess that system would be hard for a school that has a bad rep but average results though - but do schools with average results have bad rep's? I don't know.

They were discussing it on Hack and the basic conclusion was that all this does is chart different socio-economic areas really.

Example ranking of statistically similar schools for 'Reading':

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8058/fireshotcapture009stati.th.png

There's a wealth of information on this site, I really don't know how useful it would be for the public though? What are parents going to do to make schools better other than take their kids out?

Hahaha, My Highschool has a 88% attendance rate. I thought it would be lower.
Slightly below average in pretty much everything.

Doesn't mention much about the VET/SBAT program (Which it has won awards for being best in the state) or that fact that they were/are King at Sports.

Primary school slightly better, 93% attendance. Substantially above avg for maths, average at everything else.

School my mum is a (PE) teacher at is above average at everything, 94% attendance. Yet she has recomended people not to go there because of certain teachers and disipline problems with quite a few of the students.
So this new systems is basically saying that the school is great, but a teacher there wouldn't recomend it to her friends. What an awesome use of Tax payer money!

They should have added some nicer exception handling when their AJAX requests time out.

/nitpick

AWESOME SITE, DOES NOT SEARCH!

Yay for another government win.

The site is just getting hammered obviously it's the first day it's up, like when Netbank goes down for that week before end of financial year. It would be a waste of tax payer dollars if they had the site able to handle this kind of capacity when with in 3 days it'll probably be getting 3% of the traffic compared with today.

The way I see it. Every other industry (even some public departments) have KPIs. Public company have to publish their results for public review. Why shouldn't school publish their results? The site could be used to identify at-risk schools in need of intensive programmes.

Yes, it identifies bad schools. But it also rewards good schools, public or private.

Teachers cry foul for pay rises whilst student performance is decreasing. In how many jobs would you get a pay rise for reduced performance?

lol this site is worthless.

It first of all, has the worst graphs known to man. At least, it is the worst graphing I have seen in my lifetime.

Second of all, for a high school it has a value system/graph for year 9 only, given schooling goes from 8-12 this is a poor representation of anything.

Selected school's average

Colour shows if the selected school's average is above or below statistically similar schools' average

Colour shows if the selected school's average is above or below the Australian schools' average

Statistically similar schools' average

Australian schools' average

This is all well and good, the numerical value or points system associated to these 'reading'/'writing' etc. etc. is absolutely meaningless, and nowhere easily accessible or at least easy to spot (Note I did not read the main page just went straight to searching), are references/links to what these numbers represent exactly or how they are scored.


Fail graphs are fail.

[edit] Oh right, I see the link to NAPLAN website... Still doesn't give a nice, summarised explanation of the scoring system without having to go digging.


last edited by Mephz at 11:00:52 28/Jan/10

This isn't about teachers pay or performance. It's about the school in general. It's supposed to be so that parents can look at a school's stats before selecting one for their child. All this does is pigeonhole disadvantaged schools. The results are flawed for starters. Schools with ESL programs have to get their ESL students to sit the NAPLAN test alongside mainstream students. So in many instances you are going to have a number of students who can't read or write English properly sitting the same exam, greatly affecting the schools overall test results. These results are then made public saying oh wow this school didn't do very well on their NAPLAN tests, where there are still many schools that don't offer ESL programs who then have an advantage.

AWESOME SITE, DOES NOT SEARCH!

They should put up some sort of outtage notification explaining how incompetent and apologetic they are for the inconvenience caused and when they expect to have it back up, otherwise chumps will keep coming back to visit the site to hammer it even more not knowing why they're not getting any search results.

Something funky is going on in QLD or something because it's 100% fine for me down here.

I was able to get results and found my kid's school.

I was able to get results and found my kid's school.

And...

yeah i found my primary school, killing it above the average it seems


last edited by funky at 12:49:06 28/Jan/10

Something funky is going on in QLD or something because it's 100% fine for me down here.

I blame funky.

has It been hacked by a 14yo yet, that's the only test the media is interested in.

Oh whoops I forgot, Labor government can do no wrong.

Pinky: Is that 'and' a sarcastic QGL 'so what c***?' or an interest in the result?

If the former: geff***ed. If the latter, the kid's school is mildly above average nationally, markedly above average for 'statistically similar' schools. Happy enough with that, given that its a regional non-Gov.

The latter ;-)

I was hoping for - yep, I'm pulling him/her out tomorrow.

Hehe.

I think teachers should have KPI's to aim for, but it hard when their students are responsible for their own learning at the end of the day.

All this is going to do is let parents find out where all the smart kids go, and move their kids there.

KPIs are f***in stupid, when you give people KPIs they just work to the KPIs...I don't want teachers trying to push out results just because those are the arbitrary targets they were set, teachers should care about the kids.

I think teachers should get paid more/less if they can do a better/worse job (Though my Sister and mum, both teachers, strongly disagree) but I think it should be in No-way tied to performance of students.

Some teachers turn up 5min before the starter bell and leave on the end bell. Others turn up an hour early and stay back after.
Some teachers should get paid more plain and simple IMO. But it should be a peer review process with their Principle etc, not based on Student grades which are just as heavily influenced by the student's work ethic and the household (parents.)

Sister always says 'what if you dont like your princple/other teachers of if they dislike you' to which I reply 'welcome to the real world.' Just like asking your boss for a pay rise at your 6 month/yearly review, Teachers could go through the same process.

KPIs are f***in stupid, when you give people KPIs they just work to the KPIs...I don't want teachers trying to push out results just because those are the arbitrary targets they were set, teachers should care about the kids.

your kid's teacher can care. I want my kid's teacher to teach the three R's.

Some teachers should get paid more plain and simple IMO. But it should be a peer review process with their Principle etc, not based on Student grades which are just as heavily influenced by the student's work ethic and the household (parents.)

It's like any business environment. The cream often rises to the top - but when you get a s***-kicker in the top position it degrades the entire organisation into a pile of s*** because they can't employ good people because they will be shown up for what they are.

I like the idea of a peer review process - but it always comes back to "what makes a good teacher?" which is actually a difficult question to answer. Give a s*** teacher good kids, they will all still get good results. Give a good teacher s*** kids, they will still all get s*** results. That's why I think 'progress' is a better score.

Some teachers turn up 5min before the starter bell and leave on the end bell. Others turn up an hour early and stay back after.
Some teachers should get paid more plain and simple IMO. But it should be a peer review process with their Principle etc, not based on Student grades which are just as heavily influenced by the student's work ethic and the household (parents.)

Yeh some of the good teachers I had didn't really have lives outside of school, they did sports training morning / afternoon and gave up their Saturdays as well as putting together great classes.

The best school in nsw (and probably the country) on these stats alone is
James Ruse Agricultural High School. Their stats are insane. No one comes close when you click "statistically similar schools". Hey look its a public school.

While it says its a school for the gifted, its not. Few friends went there and what happens is they just cherry pick the people once they do the exam. Go public system!?

Exactly, that's the kind of s*** you can measure a teachers performance off.
It's not hard to look at a teachers lesson/day/week/month/term plan and see that teacher A put in more effort then teacher B. Often my Sister would spend an entire Saturday making posters and s*** to be used for her class all unpaid. Sure she can probably get a few years out of them (until they change the curriculum... again) but I'm sure she'll make new ones for other stuff as well.

Even smaller things like which teachers turn up 30min early on a Sports Day to help set up the fields are good indicators.

Fade; The ones who care about how well their students do are more likely to make sure your kid is learning the 3 R's. As well as everything else.

Interesting ....

School ICSEA value: 
903

Bottom quarter
83%

Middle quarters
3% 0%

Top quarter
13%

But it should be a peer review process with their Principle etc...

Peer review? So some dirty old bastard can give top rating to the young chick with the biggest tits?

Yep, just like a real workforce.

And if they start using this for performance pay for teachers you can almost guanentee (sic) teachers teach the test.

At least if they teach the test the kids wont come out illiterate.

So you could have more mindless drones for your workforce?

Kinds being able to go A + B = C is a lot different to kids knowing why A + B = C.

So you could have more mindless drones for your workforce?

Kinds being able to go A + B = C is a lot different to kids knowing why A + B = C.

We don't want the masses to be educated.

Does anyone think that paying more money for teachers would attract more candidates to it driving down the required OP to get in meaning we'd get a higher calibre of teacher?

So you could have more mindless drones for your workforce?

99% of the work I've ever seen requires a mindless drone. You train them to stack blocks, then they go and stack blocks.

You don't need to over-complicate the requirements of a worker - because who will you give money for your groceries too if check-out chicks can solve differential equations analytically in their heads?

Repetition is the father of learning.

@imitiation, paying more money is only half the answer. Demanding responsibility is the other half. They are responsible for educating our future generations. I have never understood why they aren't more valued. In our society we are valuing lawyers, doctors, investment bankers, etc, etc - not primary/secondary educators that every single person must deal with in their lifetime.

That would be a logical conclusion yes.

Whether it's that simple and easy is debatable.

I don't think you could pay me enough to be a teacher imitation, too much s*** and too many parents blaming you for s*** they f***ed up. However, yeah, more money would mean more people which means you could be pickier. Not sure if that would be better or worse, but you could have 'smarter' people for sure.

Don't get me wrong Pinky, the world needs its under achievers. I doubt we'll ever be in short supply. However I think we should at least try to get everyone over the line. There may be fewer positions for the thinkers, but there are fewer thinkers.

Perhaps classes should have several teachers that kinda swap around a bit and specialise in different areas so you're not stuck with the one bitch all day long.

So now I realise why my old highschool fees are going up by $3000... Things like this site are going to ensure people pay good money

Perhaps classes should have several teachers that kinda swap around a bit and specialise in different areas so you're not stuck with the one bitch all day long.

Hehe, in drama class in Year 8 I thought I was clever calling my (female) teacher an 'ushi' which is Japanese for cow.

As it turned out she happened to speak a bit of Japanese...

Does anyone think that paying more money for teachers would attract more candidates to it driving down the required OP to get in meaning we'd get a higher calibre of teacher?

Probably not, no. It's not the kind of job you choose for money.

At least if they teach the test the kids wont come out illiterate.

Go do some research...
The last time performance pay for teachers got used teachers were teaching for the test. The inspector of the time was an interesting individual and wrote memoirs. They Recounted seeing kids read perfectly ... from books that were upside down. They were still illiterate but they sure knew how to pass the test.

Peer review was the old system (school inspectors).
Now instead of people being promoted based on their performance at schools it gets based on selection criteria and how well they went at interview.

I have never understood why they aren't more valued.

A movie actor playing the part of a teacher will earn more in 1 movie then a teacher will earn in their entire career.

Teachers and Schools need to be weighted against a kpi of some sort how the f*** else are the parents to know aside from guessing and hearsay that the school they send their children to is a good one.

Actually being activly involved in your childrens education would be a good start. Word of mouth is the next best thing.
This sort of test doesn't show what the school environment is like, just how well the kids there do on standardised tests.

Teachers and Schools need to be weighted against a kpi of some sort how the f*** else are the parents to know aside from guessing and hearsay that the school they send their children to is a good one.

Parent: "How was school today, what'd they teach you?"

To be honest I have really thought about home schooling, and being proactive about my child's education. However the social aspect seems to be one reason to actually send them to school

To be honest I have really thought about home schooling, and being proactive about my child's education. However the social aspect seems to be one reason to actually send them to school

I don't have kids but I think my dad did pretty well in the education department (he's a secondary teacher now). Whenever we went for a drive as young kids he would give us speed maths questions like:

"Open bracket, two times four, close bracket, plus 7, minus 2"

Then we would compete to see who could answer first. Eventually he'd make them so long it was an effort just to remember the numbers.

When it comes to older kids I'm pretty thankful that I busted my arse through secondary and uni so that I'll be able to help my kids if I ever have any.

Kinds being able to go A + B = C is a lot different to kids knowing why A + B = C.

Given that A and B will be different numbers on any different day I think that to score well you would have to know WHY. durrrrrrrrr

are you going the IVF + donor mother route pinky?

are you going the IVF + donor mother route pinky?

Is that an offer? I've always admired your dark, flowing locks. I think you'd make a great mother.

Teachers and Schools need to be weighted against a kpi of some sort how the f*** else are the parents to know aside from guessing and hearsay that the school they send their children to is a good one.

Yes but if that measure is a test it can be specifically trained for.

Primary school is more about learning to learn rather then any particular "skill" and how exactly do you test if the kids are better at being able to learn ? And how do you associate that with a teachers ability rather then outside influences... socio economic backgrounds, language spoken at home, number of parents actively involved with the childs upbringing.

ie. a kid of a teenage mum in a welfare house backing on to a highway, and a child in a inner western suburb with a stay at home mum and as much tutoring.
Give them the same teacher you can almost be certain one of those 2 children will achieve a better result.

I don't have kids but I think my dad did pretty well in the education department (he's a secondary teacher now). Whenever we went for a drive as young kids he would give us speed maths questions.

Are we related? I hope not ;). My Dad used to do that too, except he kept it simple, eg:

4 * 9 =

Be nostalgic Pinky.

Yeh my dad used to do that only we'd start with a number then multiply by that and then the next answer as fast as we could.

I used to get asked capital cities and mountains and rivers and s*** in europe. I know a lot about european geography :( Ain't never been there.

36?

Ok, ok!! Your turn now!!! In your head, no cheating!

http://i49.tinypic.com/288nyg9.png

Answer here:

First part of answer (inner integral)
Second part (outer integral)

Given that A and B will be different numbers on any different day I think that to score well you would have to know WHY. durrrrrrrrr

But can you define addition ? I doubt it.
I'd have a crack at it. Recursively it seems easy but I'd hazard a guess pure mathematics people would cry if you did that. So my second guess is a set union. Frog was a pure mathematics phd student and he loved his sets.

I used to get asked capital cities and mountains and rivers and s*** in europe. I know a lot about european geography :(

I'm moving to England, I only found out a few weeks ago that Scotland and Wales are not seperate islands....

Algebra is largely a waste of time in high school - it should be replaced by stats, as Obes exemplifies.

Primary school is more about learning to learn rather then any particular "skill" and how exactly do you test if the kids are better at being able to learn ? And how do you associate that with a teachers ability rather then outside influences... socio economic backgrounds, language spoken at home, number of parents actively involved with the childs upbringing.

And grading teachers against their peers is going to show what sort of data, I will leave it open ended.

As for children of different socioeconomic backgrounds, cutlures, what they had for breakfast / whatever, f*** them why spoon feed them. Weed them out

I have a firm belief that if child applies themselves, then they should be pushed and challenged in school not stuck in a class with a teacher that doesn't give a s***, they should be in a class where their teacher and their peers challenges them for the better. Not lumped and dumped with deads***s thats been the norm for so long. I think honesty that both children and teachers need to be means tested against some form of kpi.

Every single student at my high-school at grade 11 was told that they would not implement an ICT core subject because the teachers didn't feel we where up to the standard and even able to pass it with a C. The truth was some 3 years after completion I actually spoke to the then head of ICT, when happened to be working on a project, who after much debate concluded that it was in fact that the teachers lacked the capacity and training to teach the subject in the first place and this was in 98-99 and it was mutually agreed even at that time that had the teachers had been means tested to see if they where up to scratch then I sure that I may of been able to at least have done ICT as a core subject at that time. Now this is for one subject for 1 years grade of student in an isolated case.

Nearly every other profession has kpi measurements employees why should teachers be any different

last edited by HerbalLizard at 18:21:04 28/Jan/10

Nearly every other profession has kpi measurements employees why should teachers be any different

Speaking from experience working in a project where we set KPIs for some employees, as I told my boss would happen, people just adapted their work method to meet the new KPIs they still cut corners and did overall sloppy s*** work only they did it for the new KPIs. KPIs are a really stupid invention, how about value your employees, encourage them to be proud of their work and audit the s*** out of their entire role not just x random facets.

HerbalLizard ... I am going to assume some form of pot reference cos you got to be high.

As for children of different socioeconomic backgrounds, cutlures, what they had for breakfast / whatever, f*** them why spoon feed them. Weed them out

Good idea, lets get the people who have a limited understanding of english and ensure all they can do is empty bins... Incase you haven't worked it out ... Primary school is complete spoon feeding and high school is not much beyond that.

And the point I was making was that it is entirely possible a good teacher in a poor area will "perform" worse then a poor teacher in a good area when measured using student results. Some of the best teachers take on the hardest "advancement" cases, would a smart teacher do that when they get marked against their students ?

And grading teachers against their peers is going to show what sort of data, I will leave it open ended.

If you think that's what peer review means ... you are a special sort of special. Peer review is an "inspector" someone who rose through teachers, then through principals to be considered best of the craft and then that person goes and watches their peers in action, reviewing and reporting on their performance. Or a group of your peers who come and watch you in action and provide those reports etc etc

had the teachers had been means tested

means tested ? how does ones financial status determine their ability to teacher ICT ?

Actually your English is awful. Perhaps you should have been weeded out.

Nearly every other profession has kpi measurements employees why should teachers be any different

Name an independent KPI you can use ? you can't. You are applying a student KPI to a Teacher. And what's worse this KPI doesn't track improvement of individual students. Its about bands and means and statistical terms that most people give the wrong meaning to.

But lets assume it actually shows personal student improvement (means we have to double the testing by the way). It's still f***ed .... If the teacher was the sole input for that yeah sure ... But they aren't. So instead of getting good teachers at bad schools to improve standards you are encouraging a system where good teachers will only go to good schools. Thus letting them get better KPIs and thus better pay. So the deadbeats endup at the crap schools.

ie. counter productive to the goal of an overal "increase" in performance.

If the goal was to create a few really bright kids then yeah sure that system would work fine.

I've conceded and not going to bother, and yes obes my compression of english is horrible

Algebra is largely a waste of time in high school - it should be replaced by stats, as Obes exemplifies.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png

We use KPIs at our company to determine quarterly bonuses for employees.

Well, one KPI actually, the operating profit.

So instead of getting good teachers at bad schools to improve standards you are encouraging a system where good teachers will only go to good schools. Thus letting them get better KPIs and thus better pay. So the deadbeats endup at the crap schools.

Isn't this what happens anyway? The good teachers sure as s*** don't want to teach in the ghetto, right? Even if they do good work, they don't get remunerated in recognition. The plum spots that attract the best teachers are in private institutions.

If the teacher's effectiveness can be objectively measured and rewarded based on improved outcomes for students, then the areas with the greatest potential for profit would be students who are struggling, not preppy kids from good backgrounds with mum and dad standing over them to get into med school.

I have no idea how such a measure would be implemented, its not my field.

last edited by Hogfather at 21:33:45 28/Jan/10

Awesome xkcd.

Algebra is nowhere near a waste of time in high school. They should both be taught and both usually are to most people at varying degrees of difficulty.

I use the same KPI Hoggy! To determine if I have a job still.

Yep, I still have a job. Just.

Yeh that xkcd is great. Basic algebra (solve for x) is great. Basic stats (first year uni stuff) is far more useful when thinking critically about anything.