Back in 2003, we decided we might be interested in getting into online music streaming. This was back at a time when we were actively mirroring movie trailers to try to make sure Australians could get them quickly and easily (a time before YouTube), so we figured mirroring music streams or running our own would be both interesting and helpful.

Unfortunately we ran into some roadblocks - that of finding the correct license. As Australia Day approaches and people start firing up their radios, I was reminded of this saga again, as I thought how nice it would be to be able to help Triple J by mirroring their online stream. Unfortunately, we still don't know how to do this legally - because APRA/AMCOS, the entity responsible for licensing the rights to do this sort of thing, haven't been able to give us an answer about what license we need.

For those interested, here's the whole sad story - basically summed simply by stating we've been waiting more than seven years for a response to this issue and we still haven't gotten one.

Why not just do it then sit back and wait for the cease and desist email ?
At least you will know you have their attention.

trog you need to learn to end your emails/letters/phonecalls with "You have one day."

What a McJoke. They cry about people not doing the right thing, yet seemingly they don't even know what the right thing is.
Weird tho since now days nearly every isp is mirroring music streams.
Shame important organisations such as these can be so naive yet it seems to be rampant in todays world.

Have you approached the ABC about it?

They may not want you to mirror their stream... but they might?

Have you tried skipping the licensing part (if a license does not exist, do you still need one?) and going straight to the radio company and asking them for permission?

Also, have you tried contacting the ISP companies that are doing the exact same thing you want to do? I thought this would be a logical step.

tl;dr

Why not just do it then sit back and wait for the cease and desist email ?
At least you will know you have their attention.

Really???!?!

A cease and desist is a best case* scenario... the other scenario is getting a big f*** you in the ass your sued mother f***er letter in the mail....

*note... best case scenario is them realizing what a mad dawg you are for mirroring the feed and giving you a billion dollars and a bunch of nakid chicks to suck your dick...

that's the radio companies, but if you ask permission and get it, whats stopping you?

how does internode do it???

Try breaking the licensing that will get a response

I remember you pondering this idea on here, doesn't seem like that many moons ago but I guess it was, lucky you didn't change anything with QGL

that timeline is.... wow... just wow.

Why not just do it then sit back and wait for the cease and desist email ?

Probably because its not worth the risk. Copyright companys dont care about people coming to them and trying to do stuff legit thats a bit hard/different to there current model of doing things, its all just too hard as you can see by trogs post, there are numerous other stories of the same thing happening on the internet.

But goddam will they come after you if you do something they dont like, guarantee it wouldnt just sit around for 7-8 years, you'd have lawyers sueing you for millions of dollars worth of lost revenue witinh weeks/days, even though when you ask them before hand how much it costs to licence it legitimatly, they dont know/care.

Accually I just had a great idea. You could hire me(ask Jim for a mad personal reference) to sort this out good and proper like. I am waiting for your pm/email/call/visit.

Your local Uni will have a copyright professional. Email them. They will at least be able to point you in the right direction.

why not just ask JJJ if you can mirror their stream?

The issue is, according to the APRA licensing scheme and how they've explained it to us so far, it's not just JJJ that needs to give permission - we still need a license because we're communicating to users. From their page:

Whenever music is downloaded or streamed over the internet, there are a number of rights that are exploited. These include:

* the reproduction of a musical work; and
* the communication to the public of a musical work.

So the question that I'm /really/ asking them is, have JJJ already paid the licenses for this for their online stream?

OBVIOUSLY, they have. The real question here is are they going to double-dip by making mirrors pay as well.

I need to ask JJJ as well; I suspect they wouldn't give permission though, but I could be wrong.

they would cause internode got tripple j stream mirrored

why not just ask JJJ if you can mirror their stream?

As Trog has already said it's not as easy as that. I imagine JJJ would love people to mirror their stream, wider audience, ads are still being played/listened to and less data costs of their own.

It's similar to how McDonalds aren't legally allowed to play FM radio stations through their own PA system, it's not the FM station that cracks the s***s it's the copyright holder wanting more monies because its a public rebroadcast.

Hahah....7 years .... far out.

Hey Trog,

That was the email adventures from YOUR sent box. Imagine the adventures your emails have had on their network.
5000 x forwards
100 x "What's this? too hard, I'll leave it unread so I can deal with it later"
5 x "I can't be bothered finding the requested information but I reply to all my emails"
1 x "Special email folder created in the managers inbox to compile all Trogs emails where they all arrive eventually but are never followed up"

We need some sort of special QGL task force for when we need to 'escalate' a situation. CHUB could bring his knife skills, we could take advantage of Tequila's raw size and love of guns, and MatchFixa could probably bring some explosives expertise to the table.

As if Aussies have the quota to waste on streaming radio adds.

can I be the charlie to your angels, crizane?

you can be bosley

easy solution, give up on offering your services - you've tried

umm isnt JJJ part of the ABC? isnt the ABC not funded by advertising? (i might be wrong) why would JJJ let an ad sponsored site distribute there content?

It's similar to how McDonalds aren't legally allowed to play FM radio stations through their own PA system, it's not the FM station that cracks the s***s it's the copyright holder wanting more monies because its a public rebroadcast.

Somebody tell Hungry Jack's because every store I've been in for the past few years has been playing a FM Radio station, be it Nova, B105 or another station.

can I be the charlie to your angels, crizane?

LOL I didn't even think of that! We'll call the team 'Crizane's Angels', they'll take their orders from my but the missions get handed down from Trog. And yes, thermite can be Bosley.

I guess the first mission is to wipe out APRA. I really hope taking out Atkinson can be the second mission, then taking down Conroy for the 3rd.

last edited by Crizane Tribal at 17:54:59 26/Jan/10

Somebody tell Hungry Jack's because every store I've been in for the past few years has been playing a FM Radio station, be it Nova, B105 or another station.

Yeah I though u just needed an apra licence to allow you to play instore radio etc.

From what I understand there are two controlling companies in Australia that deal with copyright licensing for music/musicians.

Now from what you've written it seems that you may not know that PPCA exist.

From what I remember of my training about these companies:

APRA/AMCOS seem to take care of musicians by collecting fees from people that want to play their music. I think these guys try to 'protect' the artists compositions and intellectual property therein.

PPCA/ARIA take care of collecting fees for physical recordings. So they deal more with public performance fees (like playing on radio).

I am not in any way an expert with these matters, but just work for a company now that deals with both of these companies and some record companies directly so we can pay fees for public performance rights.

Now from what you've written it seems that you may not know that PPCA exist.

I have spoken to the PPCA several times. At the time I spoke to them they had no license that did what I wanted.

In February, 2005, they told me they were "about a month" away from having a blanket license that would meet our requirements.

I emailed them again in May, 2005 to chase it up and never got a response.

FWIW, PPCA email from the aria.com.au domain. I am intrigued as to exactly how separate they are as entities.

As if Aussies have the quota to waste on streaming radio adds.

if you RTFA you'll see one of the reasons we wanted to do this was to address that problem by offering it as a service to ISPs.

OH YEH, I FORGOT SOMETHING. I did actually ask TripleJ for permission, and it was refused. I've just dug up the email and don't want to quote it directly, but suffice to say it was refused because JJJ don't have a license that allows that. I've emailed the person back to ask for permission to repost her email.

on the how does internode do it, I had a chat to simon h about that way back when tehy started doing it, and the fact is they have no license to do it, they are relying on the existing license that the person doing the streaming has and using the age old 'we're just reproducing their stream' which is in my view clearly not right, I've askled the same people that they mirror if they have a license that allows duplicaiton of their streams and they just said they ddint know.

Clearly to me from a legal perspective this is flakey its just no one cares right now..

I have spoken to the PPCA several times. At the time I spoke to them they had no license that did what I wanted. In February, 2005, they told me they were "about a month" away from having a blanket license that would meet our requirements. I emailed them again in May, 2005 to chase it up and never got a response. FWIW, PPCA email from the aria.com.au domain. I am intrigued as to exactly how separate they are as entities.

Yeh; this seems to be the same quality of service that we receive from PPCA/ARIA (I keep using slash for these companies because a lot of the same people seem to work under/for them...) and they never give you a reasonable straight answer.

PPCA/ARIA are going through their fee schemes right now from what I've heard and have a feeling that this kind of license should be available from them already at this point in time.

I'll see if I can get some details on the person we deal with...

I have received a new reply from APRA/AMCOS asking me some more questions today and provided them with the information they want.

Basically the status at the moment is that they do not have a license that meets these requirements.

Err.....just doing research for a game I've got in development...seems that this might be what you're after? http://www.ppca.com.au/Webcasting-Licences.html