hihi,

68kg, 175 cm tall, work out 4 times a week and looking at gaining mass.

I was recommended this product:

http://rjsmuscle.com/library/OP-129.jpg

http://www.thesupplementden.com.au/resources/image/serious-mass-facts.jpg

I'm still fairly new to all this but 1250 of calories? Is that a s***load of calories or what!?! i don't wanna become a fat slob but I'm thinking i'll just need to take a serving post work out and before going to bed on a non training day.

It's only $90 for 5.45kg which is damn cheap compared to other products if you ask me, but that's prolly because it only has something like 14% protein.

I know it would be better to talk to the dudes at the suppliment shop but i also know there are a few gym gunkies on here.... any recommendations?

More info on the Suppliment Den website

I eat a Meat Pie and drink a bottle of V for breakfast every other morning.
That seems to work for serious mass, maybe try that instead?

I'm trying to go on about doing it the healthier way, if you know what i mean.

I still eat like a horse, it's just more convienent for me to get the shakes and fill in any gaps of protein/carbs that i'm not getting in my daily meals.

Needs more melamine

There's 576 calories and 32g protein in a Big Mac. A serving of this would be like eating two Big Macs.

There's 117 calories in an egg white and 27g of protein. If you are after protein to build muscle you are better off on the egg whites cos you can eat say 6-8 pretty comfortably by blending with a banana or strawberries. That's the path my brother took and he's built like a brick s***house.

This doesn't take price into account though - I'd guess the egg white road is pretty expensive in comparison.

References:
http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-big-mac-i21111

http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-egg-white-i1124

I eat a Meat Pie and drink a bottle of V for breakfast every other morning.

I used to keep pies in the freezer, then if I woke up hungry at 3am I'd get up and eat a pie before going back to bed. I put on about 7kg this way, but I struggle to look at a pie now, it became really tough to deal with.

I eat a Meat Pie and drink a bottle of V for breakfast every other morning.

talk about bevan behaviour

just make sure you keep it out of the line of sight of any air-con installers

WTF? Serving size = 332g, of which only 50g is protein? That's pretty crap.

Pretty disturbing that there's enough chlorine in it that they have to list it in the ingredients/nutrition info.

I'd be looking for something else to get protein from. Actually personally I still am, because my coach wants me on 100g a day, and given that I don't like eggs and don't get that much fish or meat due to the meals I'm fed, it's a massive struggle - lately I'm lucky to get 20g/day :(
I tried the smoothie thing for a while but got sick of the effort required in making them, and they didn't taste that nice.

hey question

does it matter that much if you have your protien drink thing before you work out?

i drink these protien revival drinks from the 7/11 across from work (they have like 20 or 30g of protien) before i go to the gym after work, i figure it gives me some protien and also some energy so i don't burn out half way through working out.

They say an hour before your workout and straight after your workout is recommended but double check with the pros.

Anyway...thread on rails again.

If your just starting out, just use a basic WPC, Whey Protien Concentrate and see how you go. Then when you are seeing differences (when you finish that pack) switch to a Basic WPI, Whey Protien Isolate. Though this is based on starting out & without knowing your goals and your weekly weight routine.

Pave - Try and stay away from those musashi/Ausbody Pre mixed drinks, they cost way too much and contain too much filler like basic sugars. You are better off buying a bulk shake and making one before you head to the gym, maybe one after OR eat after you work out then have a slow releasing protien like a snack of Feta cheese or a base carb protein shake before bed.

At the moment I am on a Redback WPI Stack. It tastes great and theres no fancey add in and fillers. I was also on another powder called MRM Metobolic Whey which is an Isolate also. This also tasted very nice.

i'm not that worried about after, i go home and have dinner

it's primarily to give me some energy while at the gym

it's primarily to give me some energy while at the gym

If you want energy you want carbs not protein. It's much more difficult for the body to produce energy from proteins and lipids than from carbs.

Personally when I drink protein shakes I get tired, so I always have em after, never before a workout.

just eat the eggs like a man - raw and broken into a cup

only 1 in 10000 chance of selmonella poisoning

you're better off drinking juice before the gym and having the protein shake after, rather than protein shake before for energy. carbs give you energy, not protein.

334g is a fk load serve (most protein serves are 40g)... that's a huge shake bro, you'll be putting on mass in no time

but as old matey says, those pre-made things have sugar and stuff in them

as well as 30g of protien

so it kinda works well for both

it's primarily to give me some energy while at the gym

How much water would you go through during routine? if your feeling tired at the gym, try and suck down more water during the day as well as keeping to a 6 meal a day habit. Also some of the pros use a fast releasing protien isolate directly after they work out.

Pretty disturbing that there's enough chlorine in it that they have to list it in the ingredients/nutrition info.

???

Are you looking at Choline or am I missing it?

i should have said before, i'm not looking for huge mass gains and s***. i'm not eating a f***load of food etc

i just go to the gym 3 times a week (usually) and do my thang

I know it would be better to talk to the dudes at the suppliment shop

Not always, sometimes they will try and sell what ever they need to get rid of. Best place I found is Bodizone at Geebung, I forget the owners name, but he is the short and bald Unit thats usually out the back doing Personal Training classes. Speak to him if you can.

Thats cool Pave, still try alittle more water through the day and see how you go when your alittle more hydrated

last edited by BOHEMION at 16:56:10 11/Dec/08

Most of the protein powders are just skim milk powder and a little protein additive...

I know I wouldn't take that s***. 1600 Cal with milk is 2/3rds my DAILY recommended intake of energy. 250g carbs means s***loads of energy in one sitting which I mostly wouldn't use all day. That stuff would make you fat faster than it would make you stronger.

You should take a more normal protein shake. I usually take Nature's Way Protein Plus. 22g protein (out of 33g serving) with about 8g more in the 250mL milk you mix with. Only about 250 Cal all up with milk. The idea with protein shakes is to boost your protein to help rebuild muscles, not pump in a s***load of carbs and calories to boost your waste size at the same time.

But then again, I don't thrash my workout. I just do a general fitness workout each day.

last edited by 3dee at 17:12:22 11/Dec/08

When you work out, your muscles are being rebuilt and broken down in a cyclic manner that includes work done in the liver. Part of doing a heavy work is making this process more efficient.

You can only rebuild muscles as fast as the enzymes in this system will let it. Having heaps of protein in one sitting will cause most of that protein to be pissed out. Some of it will be converted to sugar and vice versa. Having buttloads of carbo's at the same time as a moderate amount of protein will help prevent your body making carb's out of protein.

A lot of bad advice here... I'm not gonna bother quoting and rebutting everyone

If you are 68kg and a hard gainer I would hit that. That said, hitting 1200 calories in one setting can make you feel really lethargic shortly after - so see how you go! Might f*** with your energy levels, but thats the trade off compared to eating proper food. Will definitely help you get big n strong and if you are a hard gainer you won't put on stacks of fat - and stupidly easy to lose if you are a hard gainer anyways.

Take note that the you are mostly downing a s***load of maltodextrin, which is a real fast burning carb not that far off sugar. If you are a hard gainer like me then this doesn't matter, but if you do put fat on like an average person you'll plump up pretty quick. That said at 68kg you have nothing to worry about.

My current shake I have every day (does 2 serves, I drink one and take one with me to work):

2 scoops of cassien ~60g protein
8 eggs (yolks n all)
2 frozen bananas
1 yoghurt
2 scoops of ice cream
Teaspoon of honey
Bit of cinnamon
Pour a bit of flax oil in
Few spoons of glutamine

I'm thinking of buying one of those industrial strength blendtec blenders and adding more to it to make it a 3 serve monster.

Previously I used to make a different shake which was the nuts but I had to get away from extreme mass as it was f***ing with my energy levels. Put some good size with it though.

It was

4 scoops of international protein extreme mass
1 cup of oats
8 eggs
punnet of strawberries
glutamine

2 scoops of cassien ~60g protein
8 eggs (yolks n all)
2 frozen bananas
1 yoghurt
2 scoops of ice cream
Teaspoon of honey
Bit of cinnamon
Pour a bit of flax oil in
Few spoons of glutamine

I think I'll stick to my small bowl of cereal, jog and a protein milkshake for breakfast...

Also, I find that if I don't do a jog before going to work (to sit down all day at Telstra), I'll eat junk all day. If I do my jog, I hardly feel like eating anything til lunch.

last edited by 3dee at 18:17:23 11/Dec/08

good info here
i'm trying to get into it but the hard part is getting all the s*** you need and the routine sorted.
i dont have any gyms close by so im going to get equipment at home.

A set of dumbells and bench is all you need right? besides diet...

I have a cross-trainer at home and have some dumbells but mostly at the moment I'm doing a couple of diff sets of pushups and jogging. I wish I had aircon on my cross-trainer though, the heat even at 8am in the morning is making it really tiring to jog. Normally do 30min jogging with maybe one quick breather halfway through but lately im fugged after 10 mins.

last edited by 3dee at 18:41:32 11/Dec/08

stick with WPC imo. Mass gainers are a waste of money, just eat more.

stick with WPC imo. Mass gainers are a waste of money, just eat more.

There's 117 calories in an egg white and 27g of protein.

that's not for 1 single egg white. that table in your link says there is 26.5g protein per serving of 243g (1 cup) of egg white. There's probably about 3 - 4g of protein per egg white

This guys e-book is very good: http://www.burnthefat.com/

while it has a weight loss slant, it's really only about fat loss initially.

The supplements that contain creatine, such as that in the original post, increase muscle mass via extra hydration of muscle. So your muscles are bigger mostly due to packed in water. Also, don't take them near the start of a workout. Give them at least 1-2 Hours to do their magic.

The main action of creatine in the body is to provide an energy buffer in muscle. It takes phosphates from ATP and stores them as phosphocreatine.

As the ATP:ADP ratio decreases from normal exercise, the phospocreatine is forced to release the phosphate onto ADP, making ATP. It serves as a very rapid source of energy.

You need 2.2g protein per Kg of body-weight per day to build & maintain muscle. If you weigh 68kg, that’s 150g protein per day. Eat whole protein with each meal. Sources of protein:

Red Meat. Ground round, steaks, deer, buffalo, …
Poultry. Chicken breast, whole chicken, turkey, duck, …
Fish. Tuna, salmon, sardines, mackerel, …
Eggs. Eat the yolk, it’s full of vitamins.
Dairy. Milk, cottage cheese, quark, yogurt, whey, …

Follow your dream, You can reach your goals, I'm living proof, Beefcake, BEEFCAKE!

Thats dedication Nitro! How long have you been into it? Ive only taken BB seriously for this year after losing a heap of unhealthy weight and i havent missed a routine yet unless injured. Its a long road but well worth it.

I actually manufacture sports supps (proteins, carbs, amino acids etc) so if you want a mass gainer I can hook you up with something better than that and no doubt cheaper.

The problem with most mass gainers is that they use dextrose and maltodextrin as the carb source - these are basically sugar. I have a product which is pure oats which you add to your protein shake so you can get a better carb source and control the carb and protein content. It mixes perfectly into the shake too so it's nice.

That said, the best mass gainer is food but sometimes it's just not possible depending on work etc so the oatmass + protein makes a great shake to get some quality calories in.

One of my lines is direct to the public wholesale pricing so you can save a lot of coin too, eg. 3kg wpi for $100 instead of $140+ in shops. Site looks poxy at the moment (was a rush job, re-doing next year) but I sell to a lot of bodybuilders and the quality and taste is better than what you'll find in stores.

I'll do a qgl discount too if anyone's keen.

yeah mate i am thanks!, PM a link and i'll have a look

The problem with most supplements is that the vast majority of evidence is anecdotal. The only things that have hard, solid evidence behind them are protein supplements and creatine. I do a session of free weights on Monday, 2 cardio sessions during the week then a machine weight session on Friday. That way I'm helping the support muscles and improving overall strength with the free weights, then targeting and isolating the big muscles that really show on the machines. Here's the shake I do:

- Scoop and a half of Myopure WPC (80% protein)
- Creatine (the amount varies, as I try to have a few small doses throughout the day rather than one big one)
- Sustagen (mostly for flavour, but also adds a bit of vitamins and minerals)

The great thing about this shake is that due to the Sustagen, it tastes awesome if I just add water from the cooler at work.

I swear by creatine. Put it this way: creatine is so useful and effective that there are people trying to get it banned as a performance enhancing drug (despite how safe it is and its overwhelming medicinal properties). As already mentioned, it can ever-so-slightly increase the bulk of your muscles by increasing the water content of the cells. Don't expect a noticable or impressive change though. It also improves your recovery time for short-burst activity (like sprinting and weight lifting). You should look at adding creatine to things yourself though, as I have heard that it quite readily reacts with other substances.

TBH I'd stick to whey protein concentrate unless you're REALLY serious. I've tried WPI and I didn't really notice a difference, so I can't justify the higher price. I also haven't read any studies that can help justify the increase in price. The fact that you're taking a supplement will matter more than what type it is.

Nitro seems to know what he's talking about, but I'm f***ing scared of him just hearing about that shake. He must be a unit. I don't think my current regimen could do such a beast justice.

Short version: Screw that crap. Make your own.

Hey Markus that sounds like some good gear, I've been chasing an oat-based shake for years.

Bohemian I've been training about 5 years now. Not a monster or anything I'm 91kg @ 9% bf. Started at 58kg. How bout you?

If you want mass why worry about protein? Protein = for muscle development. Even then a lot of it will be pissed out.

If you are urinating protein there is something wrong with you.

If you are urinating protein there is something wrong with you.

Learn2Nitrogen Metabolism


That is what he is getting at, not literally pissing out a full sized protein.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 08:00:20 12/Dec/08

f*** that just buy 5kg of ON and learn how to eat

yeah I know the guy you're talking about at bodizone, seems like he genuinely wants to help instead of sell you stuff you don’t need.

If you are urinating protein there is something wrong with you.

If the level of protien in the blood is too high maybe the kidney disposes of it ?
So the something wrong would be consuming stupid ammounts of protien.

ive been eating a f***load of pasta and ive put on 30kg in the last 3 months

that beats any type of shake fools

Bohemian I've been training about 5 years now. Not a monster or anything I'm 91kg @ 9% bf. Started at 58kg. How bout you?

2 Years. a whole year was dedicated to cardio and weight loss. I was 102KG and I got down to 72KG (am 175cm tall) I am currently sitting on 78KG from starting BB around May of this year, how ever I feel I am in a good routine which ive been following for 3 weeks now. My goal is 85KG.

Its really hard to get into it with so much conflicting info you get from people. Also the attitude of some body builders in gyms is terrible. Im lucky as my boss is an ex comp builder and once he found out I was getting into it he set out the routine for me and keeps me motivated.

ive been eating a f***load of pasta and ive put on 30kg in the last 3 months

that beats any type of shake fools

fatty

Thanks for the (good and bad) advice fellas, but i think i'll mainly be taking away this:

If you are 68kg and a hard gainer I would hit that. That said, hitting 1200 calories in one setting can make you feel really lethargic shortly after - so see how you go! Might f*** with your energy levels, but thats the trade off compared to eating proper food. Will definitely help you get big n strong and if you are a hard gainer you won't put on stacks of fat - and stupidly easy to lose if you are a hard gainer anyways.

As i'm a very hard gainer i'm going to try this product out and smash myself at the gym. I also play indoor soccer once sometimes twice a week so i'll burn that s*** off anyway with a bit of cardio. I'll move onto a more balanced suppliment with more protein once i've put on the mass. Friends of mine who are in the same boat as me have been on this shake and are seeing great results, so i'll head down this road for now.

The problem with most supplements is that the vast majority of evidence is anecdotal.

That's both true and untrue.

For protein, fast acting carbs, and specific amino acids there is actually a boatload of scientific studies by universities, athletic foundations, and so on.

Where it becomes blurry is when supp companies (mainly the USA ones) put about 100 ingredients (hi muscletech!) in the products in a 'proprietary mix' and then you have no idea how much of each individual amino is in your serving, and usually they'll underdose what the studies show to be a good dose. For example for endurance effects you want 3.4g of beta alanine and 4g+ of citrulline malate per day but you'll be hard pressed to find a USA supp with that. Mine has it though :)

Then there's the 'whacky' supps (again, mainly USA stuff, and mainly tablets) which they seem to concoct out of nowhere. Generally speaking there's always some sort of basis for the ingredients but you really need to research the ingredients not the product itself.

The only supps hardcore bodybuilders use, and also have a LOT of scientific studies and also anecdotal evidence are: protein, fast carbs after training (waxy maize starch or dextrose), bcaa's, glutamine, and EAA's. Apart from that they just eat well (and perhaps do a bit of jabby jabby, but they still use the above supps cos they work).

f*** hittin the juice though, i like my boys just how they are!

Although in saying that, i was pretty sick through the middle of the year and lost heaps of weight. I work close to good life in the valley here and with a combination of 5-6 meals a day, creatine, protien and hitting muscle groups every day i put 10kg back on in about 4 months. Some ppl thought i was juiced up, but i'm an angry kent anyways :P

Thanks for the (good and bad) advice fellas, but i think i'll mainly be taking away this:

Matchfixer I think you're missing something important about "mass". If you stack up on massive amounts of carbs and sugar you'll certainly put 'mass' on, but it won't be muscle tissue it will be fat. Your body can't create muscle tissue from carbs - it makes muscle tissue from protein.

Let me break down your supp for you:

75% Maltodextrin - this is sugar. You can buy it from the homebrew section of the supermarket for $2 a kilo. Do you really want to be pumping in 252g of sugar every day. The reason Nitro warned about f***ed energy levels is because most mass gainers are full of dextrose and maltodextrin which are sugar. When you take them they spike your insulin levels massively, and then you crash afterwards.

15% Protein - it's a blend of protein but it's all much of muchness.

10% Just other things that make up ingredients like fats and other stuff that takes up space without nutritional value.

You might as well just buy a pure protein product and take 1.5 scoops a day and then smash 2 litres of coke every day it'd be the same thing.

Do what you like though, everyone has their own ideas on supps so as long as you're happy :)


last edited by Le Cock at 10:43:03 12/Dec/08

Anyone here hit the juice before ?

when i get back from my overseas adventjahz and start hittin gym again i'm totally gonna look you up for mad pro supps le cock. sick of paying bajillions for WPI

Do what you like though, everyone has their own ideas on supps so as long as you're happy :)

That's the thing, i don't want to do what i like, otherwise i'd be drinking booz, snorting cocaine, fukin in the bushes and not asking for intelligent people's opinions on this forum :p

I'm easily swayed at the moment as i just don't know enough about all this s*** and i'm merely going off what people tell me (i.e - suppliment shops, friends, etc..)

last edited by MatchFixer at 11:14:12 12/Dec/08

why not do all of those things?!

Because I don't want to be a bogan.

Shaaaazaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

pfft bogans dont rack lines of china :P

www.myopure.com.au

www.proteindirect.com.au

these are what i use. Just good old cheap WPC or WPI. You don't need the bulls*** $50/kg products. Do this:

• Get in a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight EVERY day
  
• Consume a total of ~3000cal per day mainly sourced from protein, fat and low GI carbs
  
• Drink 2-3L of water a day
  
• train 3 times per week as hard as you can with compound exercises (f*** off the bicep curls that means)
  
• get plenty of sleep
  

If you do all that with a decent level of committment you will see results. Worry about fancy supps once you have these basics down 100%. Otherwise you might as well just burn your money.

nothing wrong with f***in in the bushes

Well if people are going to start posting links then here:
www.fitnesscentral.com.au

Just ignore the poxyness of the pics it'll be updated over the weekend. Find better tasting choc/vanilla wpi and I'll eat my hat :) Aminos out of stock but will be back soon.

I can't believe no one has mentioned "brown rice" yet!!!

I get hot and cold about protein shakes - the main benefit is the convenience, but if you put enough planning into your days, then you can easily do without them and still put on mass. I'd say if you aren't eating brown rice, tuna, egg whites and drinking s***loads of milk everyday, don't bother with protein shakes. The protein you get from food will be better, and I personally find eating food much more satisfying than drinking shakes.

I'll post pictures of me when I get home to show you my gains over the years with and without shakes.

If you do go shakes, I highly recommend Le Cock's links - I can't remember which ones I've tried, but the flavours are awesome and the price is very competitive. When looking for a protein shake, just get the cheapest s*** with as little sugar as possible - you can be as technical or as simplistic as you like. Essentially protein is protein, and the more of it you put in your system the bigger you get, provided you get your calories up which is the biggest challenge.

The protein you get from food will be better

Essentially protein is protein

Foods generally contain vitamins, minerals, other cofactors, fats and other bits and pieces that protein shakes may not have.

Just because you eat it doesn't mean it will get absorbed into the body very well. Many foods stuffs are better absorbed with the addition of other food stuffs, also vice versa. So the consumption of one compound can reduce the absorptivity of another.

That is what Billy is getting at.

A couple of other things that hopefully le cock will know more about, I thought that you're meant to drink a protein shake straight away - ie, if you mix it with milk/water, you shouldn't drink it hours later. How long does it take to metabolise the shakes? Cause food takes f***ing hours, so basically it's pointless eating meats as a post-workout meal, because it won't get processed in the necessary timeframe.

Here is me at a very lean 77kgs. I went to the gym about 5 or 6 times a week doing ~12 rep supersets so my heartrate never dropped below 120. I'd also do cardio... Diet was very carb-restrictive, and I smashed protein shakes about 3 times a day. This was way too much effort. The lighting is very flattering, but I am extremely lean.
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v104/199/33/526225759/a526225759_78192_9643.jpg
Here I am at the start of the year, weighing about 83kgs. At this stage I had totally weened myself off protein shakes, and was eating like a mofo so I was full all day everyday. Training only 3 times per week.
http://photos-h.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v173/199/33/526225759/n526225759_514495_4006.jpg

I got a shoulder injury right after this photo was taken (from tennis:(, which meant I couldn't really do shoulder press or bench press for about 6 months of the year. A good excuse to bring my legs up. I am now ~88kgs and as strong as I have ever been. 88kgs seems to be my weight barrier - I can't physically seem to be able to fit more food in my stomach. For this reason, I might start to have a shake or two during the day to push my calorie count up a little bit more.

f*** my abs are asymmetrical :(

# Get in a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight EVERY day

WTF? That's like 140g/protein per day for me, and I'm tiny. How could anyone manage this much?

umm....it ain't that hard. Eat 6 moderate sized meals per day with ~30g of protein in each. that's 180g/day.