Boston's awesome Big Picture photo section has some photos from the current situation in Georgia:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/war_in_south_ossetia.html

I'm a little surprised how little press this is getting - I mean, there's a lot, but when I turn on the news here I'd expect it to be the first thing I saw, but I guess the Olympics is just better watchin'.

(Also - if you have an RSS reader subscribe to that Big Picture feed, they have great stuff that is almost always worth a look.)

yer, bad timing with the olympics being on . . .

that said, theres still plenty of coverage.

pretty horrible situation, again its hard to know who is to blame:

georgia are saying its the horrible russians:
russians are saying its the horrible georgians and their ethnic cleansing:

still pretty horrible to see families having to leave their homes because they are bombed/burning down

the georgian leader (president?) certainly is a very well spoken well groomed man

last edited by Spook at 10:01:51 12/Aug/08

Pretty impressive pics.

Still doesn't seem to bring home the gravity of the situation for me. That said, looking at the pics of corpses was pretty disturbing. I'm glad they greyed them out.

full on pics. as someone who never watches tv or looks at newspapers i had no idea this conflict was even happening :/

mad props to the photographer

The scenery is so beautiful in some of those photos that it sort of killed the reality for me (obviously not the ones that showed the actual destruction etc)

love the pics, would make a good background for a war game.

full on pics. as someone who never watches tv or looks at newspapers i had no idea this conflict was even happening :/

talk about living under a rock...

There's a lot of news about the was on Georgia if you watch SBS, but that's about it.

I read thismorning that Russian state newspapers are reporting that Georgia attacked and rolled tons of tanks into Ossetia, so Russia retaliated. Bias and propoganda everywhere :/

South Ossetia was part of Georgia but autonomous. South Ossetia borders onto Russia. Sort of like Chechnya.

Georgia decided to flex some muscle after South Ossetia declared independence. Russia came in to help them assert their right to independence.

IIRC this is different to how Russia reacted when Chechnya claimed independence. Funny that ey.

Russian newspapers are reporting that because that's what happened. Georgia tried to militarily take control of the territory, resulting in many deaths (questionably including Russian peacekeepers). Russia is now rolling them back...further than they probably should.

This article gives a bit of an overview of how the war is going (i.e. Russia winning on the ground but not maintaining the air superiority they'd like). The Russians are using the Su-25 Frogfoot a lot, however:

The Russians - in a stunning piece of irony - have twice bombed the Su-25 Frogfoot manufacturing plant on the outskirts of the Georgian capital of Tbilisi.

For some reason, I read the title as "Photos from War in Google".

Pretty full-on pictures.

For some reason, I read the title as "Photos from War in Google".

Dead servers everywhere, a mess of CAT5 and IEC cables hanging from the injured.

From what I have read they provoked the Russians. If that is the case then they have nobody else to blame but themselves.

Moral question, if a country vote a government in that then picks a fight with the Russians do they have the right to proclaim innocence?

those are some lame lyrics dice, what are they from

From what I have read they provoked the Russians. If that is the case then they have nobody else to blame but themselves.

There is are also apparently giant oil and gas pipelines running through Georgia linking Asia with the West


HOW INTERESTING

gawd... get over yourself

A song I wrote, Jim, please don't be a jerk this time, it's about something important.

Something other than tits I'm guessing?

its about georgia killing 2000 south ossetians - a breakaway province of RUSSIAN decendants annexed by georgia after the fall of the soviet union. an act of GENOCIDE

But... Russia promised to not take the conflict further than that region and now they are bombing gori and the capital which brings into question what Maxe said. Taking that pipeline would be a stranglehold on 90% of the oil into europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tskhinvali
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

http://knol.google.com/k/james-spencer/south-ossetia/1735041tm4s38/8#

as someone who never watches tv or looks at newspapers i had no idea this conflict was even happening :/

same :(

f*** it's awesome being an Australian.

what has being australian got to do with being ignorant?

its about georgia killing 2000 south ossetians - a breakaway province of RUSSIAN decendants annexed by georgia after the fall of the soviet union. an act of GENOCIDE

Wrong.

Well, well, well!
This should keep Russia busy while America deals with Iran

I think there's alot involved in this.

Georgia has a huge oil pipeline that russia would love to get their hands on.
Russia does not want Georgia or the Ukraine to join NATO, and by demolishing their army, this is one way to do it.
It's about Georgia saying to people who want to declare independance from them that they aren't going to do it with out a fight (and rightly so, South Oseetia is still recognised as a Georgian Territory by all, except russia).
It's about Russia saying to NATO, what the f*** are you going to do to me.

On the flip side
Alot of them are now russian citizens, after Russia declared that any South Ossetian can have a russian passport.
The "seperatist" state of mind is now well entrenched, with the original movement happening 16 years ago.
Alot of the population don't want to be Georgian Citizens.

I'm a little surprised how little press this is getting - I mean, there's a lot, but when I turn on the news here I'd expect it to be the first thing I saw, but I guess the Olympics is just better watchin'.

The timing is very deliberate. By the time the world attention moves away from the Olympics this will really be well entrenched and most likely forgotten.

Georgia has a huge oil pipeline that russia would love to get their hands on.

I can't remember, but a while back before Georgia had the pipeline in Ossetia, Russia cut them off (basically a show of who was boss). By controlling Ossetia they could do it to Georgia again (the pipeline was their way around Russia controlling their energy resources).

From what I have read they provoked the Russians. If that is the case then they have nobody else to blame but themselves.

Not really...Russia basically declared war against a country managing their own territory. It would be like New Zealand (lol) bombing Sydney if Tasmania suddenly declared independence from mainland Australia because a whole bunch of Kiwi's lived there (would we care?) and we sent troops in to control the situation.

an act of GENOCIDE

As soon as you start throwing around words like 'genocide', you generally look like a complete moron. This is another of those situations.

Please educate yourself on what genocide involves.

It would be like New Zealand (lol) bombing Sydney if Tasmania suddenly declared independence from mainland Australia

one can only dream

hah that wikipedia discussion is raging.

genocide is the exact reason russia gave for crossing georgias boarder

south oseetians are genetically different from georgians. killing 2000 refugees is an act of genocide.

last edited by d[o_0]b at 14:00:30 12/Aug/08

but that is bs at this stage. genocide is what happened in rwanda or kosovo involving the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of civilians. this war has been going for a week and is mostly military casualties.

genocide is the exact reason russia gave for crossing georgias boarder

south oseetians are genetically different from georgians. killing 2000 refugees is an act of genocide.

Wrong, again.

here you go f*****

http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/11/stories/2008081156011500.htm

More than 2,000 residents of Georgia’s breakaway territory, mostly Russian citizens, died when Georgia launched a full-scale military assault against South Ossetia on Friday, wiping out several villages and reducing to ruins the capital Tskhinvali.

last edited by d[o_0]b at 14:14:33 12/Aug/08

what has being australian got to do with being ignorant?

I was commenting on the fact that being an Australian allows me to focus on what I want to focus on. (Ie work 45 hour weeks, study 20-30 hrs, train tae kown do etc). And I never have to worry about being bombed etc.

I know the world's f***ed up, i don't need constant reminders of it via news and what good is it going to do me/the world by knowing such information? I can't / won't do anything about it.

last edited by Fireblood at 14:33:41 12/Aug/08

love the pics, would make a good background for a war game.

been done IIRC the original Ghost Recon was set in similar circumstances round Tbilisi and Georgia.

it's pretty comfortable living under my rock.. sure theres no tv but i have the intahnets for gathering insignificant, biased & irrelevant snippets of information about global current affairs that i have no interest in, but when supplied with said snippets will pretend that i am a competant guru on the subject.

word to that

why not, what else is there to do.

here you go f*****

http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/11/stories/2008081156011500.htm

More than 2,000 residents of Georgia’s breakaway territory, mostly Russian citizens, died when Georgia launched a full-scale military assault against South Ossetia on Friday, wiping out several villages and reducing to ruins the capital Tskhinvali.

It's ok, those figures have been revised by both sides already, being lower than 100 in total for the war. and uhh, using the hindu as a source .....?

But here, lets take a quote from the same paper that reeks a little more of truth

Moscow had offered the Georgian leaders assistance in reuniting South Ossetia and Abkhazia if Georgia renounced its plans to join NATO

ahuh.

Russias actual stated public anouncement on it's reason is "to defend it's own citizens in this area". to which Sweeden (or switzerland, who cares same country) has already said, reminds them eerliy of Germanys excuse for invading the Czechs, and condemned russia for getting involved. Bodes Well for the future!

i know what you meant fireblood, just thought i'd be a c*** :p

I was commenting on the fact that being an Australian allows me to focus on what I want to focus on. (Ie work 45 hour weeks, study 20-30 hrs, train tae kown do etc). And I never have to worry about being bombed etc.

well, you should be worried about some things, like the gradual erosion of our rights to privacy and consumer rights at the hands of big industry. It's not a bomb getting dropped through your living room but it's still a pretty f***ing big deal, so you should probably keep an eye on that sort of stuff - if you're posting on the Internet you'll want to be aware of electronic rights in this amazing new magical digital age.

I know the world's f***ed up, i don't need constant reminders of it via news and what good is it going to do me/the world by knowing such information? I can't / won't do anything about it.

I can see why you'd think like that; I used to be like that. But I like to think of Australia as an awesome country, and I'd like to make sure that's what the rest of the world thinks about us as well, so if we're going to, say, start invading random nations because that's what the US reckons we should do, I'd like to make sure I have the ability to vote against people that want to do that.

So its worth paying attention if only so when time comes to exercise your right to vote, you can make an at least somewhat informed decision and we don't end up with a s***ty retarded government full of a******s like the US has.

Russia is just very nervous about the creeping border of NATO countries now that it includes many eastern-bloc neighbours. Georgia joining NATO would be too much for Russia.

However now Georgia has become involved in hostilities they may have inadvertently dealt their own admission prospects a blow as NATO is reluctant to be joined into the defense of any member nations who have existing conflicts to be resolved.

i know what you meant fireblood, just thought i'd be a c*** :p

*Is still chewing bait* :P

well, you should be worried about some things, like the gradual erosion of our rights to privacy and consumer rights at the hands of big industry. It's not a bomb getting dropped through your living room but it's still a pretty f***ing big deal, so you should probably keep an eye on that sort of stuff - if you're posting on the Internet you'll want to be aware of electronic rights in this amazing new magical digital age.

Thankfully I have QGL/You to inform me of such things. I have been meaning to write a letter/email to my member of parliment about the censorship of internet, but I am pretty flat out remembering to bring milk home from work let alone find out who my MP is (Actually I got a letter from him the other day, I might have to do somethinga bout that).

I do pay attention, just not regularly, surprisingly it's threads such as this that opens my eyes to such things. I may not be on the pulse, but i usually get the gist of main events.

er, i think getting your house BOMBED TO f***

is a little bit more scary than this s***

well, you should be worried about some things, like the gradual erosion of our rights to privacy and consumer rights at the hands of big industry. It's not a bomb getting dropped through your living room but it's still a pretty f***ing big deal, so you should probably keep an eye on that sort of stuff - if you're posting on the Internet you'll want to be aware of electronic rights in this amazing new magical digital age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

genocide is the exact reason russia gave for crossing georgias boarder

So I guess the US government calling 1,000,000 of their citizens terrorists makes them terrorists too? Just because they say something doesn't make it true.

south oseetians are genetically different from georgians. killing 2000 refugees is an act of genocide.

So if there's no South Ossetians left, what's the problem? Where's the resistance coming from?

[giri] Sweeden (or switzerland, who cares same country)

Oh boy.
And just because I have blonde hair, blue eyes doesn't make me Aryan. Nor Swedish.

er, i think getting your house BOMBED TO f***

is a little bit more scary than this s***

No s***, but getting bombed is not something we have to deal with on a day to day basis, but that doesn't mean there's not things happening in our country that we shouldn't be worried about.

ok, if im gonna be worried about something here, it would be real issues
interest rates, petrol prices and why the lions cant win anymore:

i really dont care what the man* knows about me:

ive got nothing to hide

im all for google street view


*the man being big business, the government and anyone else who is interested in little old me and my family

but getting bombed is not something we have to deal with on a day to day basis, but that doesn't mean there's not things happening in our country that we shouldn't be worried about.

just like in "the net" with sandra bullock.

No s***, but getting bombed is not something we have to deal with on a day to day basis, but that doesn't mean there's not things happening in our country that we shouldn't be worried about.

For me it is my dull and lifeless hair and ekka rides that don't meet safety standards

sigh. there's always somebody up the back.

http://swedennotswitzerland.com/wp-content/img/sweden_not_switzerland.png

f***! Sweeden is HUGE!

maybe it's not getting much coverage in Australia.. because it's a small conflict on the other side of the world.. but here in London it's all over the news.. pretty much equal coverage to the olympics. Yesterday's papers all had this war on the front page.

imo we should see more of it so aussies understand how fkn good we got it here, that and show people how bad war really is.

yeah I reckon I need regular reminders about how good it is to live here. I get in a habit of griping about taxes and retail markup compared to some other countries but I get the feeling if I shifted it wouldn't be too long before I wanted back

I am going for Russia!

There are three reasons why Russia is in Georgia and every world leader knows this and are clueless as to what to do about it, other than keeping diplomatic pressure on Russia to stop.

1) Georgia wants into NATO, delayed but eventual
2) Georgia has a BIG f*** OFF oil pipeline (built by UK/US) running through it from the Caspian Sea (only other access is via Iran and Russia) (I think china is helping to build one via Kazakstan)
3) Georgia is to house a BIG f*** OFF missile defence system (installed by the US/EU)

Georgia could have stepped on an ant in russian influenced/controlled soil and that would have given russia cause to extend its arm.

Case and point when "random" bombings happen no where near the fighting zone/military strategic points but smack bang on the oil pipeline!? oh and teh pipeline is no where near South Ossetia.

It seems as though Russia was waiting for an excuse to lay the smack down and finally got it.

f*** russia. I don't think the US can intervene at the moment. And I'm not quite sure how much they could do at the moment anyway, as much as a i'd love to see Russia obliterated. I want China and Russia to fight each other. It'd be a hell of a battle. Sadly I don't think it'll happen.

Also:

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said he had decided to cease Russia's military operation against Georgia, Russian news agencies have reported.

Taken from ABC News

I liked this writeup, The facts on Georgia

I am going for Russia!

haha. Don't suppose TAB take bets on this kinda thing do they?

natslovr: that article is rather bias, the website title doesnt help either! :)

President Bush put it this way: “The Russian government must respect Georgia’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.” He said that Russia’s actions were ““unacceptable in the 21st century” and had “substantially damaged Russia’s standing in the world,” as well as harmed relations between Washington and Moscow.

I like this statement... ummm Iraq was??? slightly hypocritical imHo!

To me, Russia has done nothing different to what the US has done in the past decades.

Neither side is wholly to blame, Georgia's border expansion/retention/expansion ambitions & western relationships have not proved helpful in curtailing a russian onslaught. Russia whilst it can, wants the influence of this region to stay within its hands.

I want China and Russia to fight each other. It'd be a hell of a battle. Sadly I don't think it'll happen.

Damnit, that sucks! How awesome would it be for two of the world's major nuclear powers to start a rumble?!

Of course it's biased. What good is news that pretends to be impartial?

To me, Russia has done nothing different to what the US has done in the past decades.

Which UN Security Council resolutions is Russia enforcing?
What dictator are they overthrowing?

It's so not the same that the only way it could be compared is if you take the "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" approach. It's such a cop-out. You don't need to be pure as the driven snow to be able to criticise the actions of others.

I like this statement... ummm Iraq was??? slightly hypocritical imHo!

Also, Georgia is a US Allie I think (Georgia's military is US trained?). So I guess Russia is stepping directly on their toes maybe?

What good is news that pretends to be impartial?

huh?

To me, Russia has done nothing different to what the US has done in the past decades.

to clarify, this is in the context of supporting/inciting uprising in other countries/regions of the world.

I dont condone the actions of Russia, but I dont believe from what I have read that Georgia is the innocent little brother here.

Personally, I would rather have a Pro-EU/US Caucus region over a Russian Caucus region but I would think that Russia has valid reasons to be sceptical of the EU/US intentions in the area. Havent exactly been on the most friendly terms in the past 100 years, in addition to having major idealogical differences.

anyway, it's over... for the moment.

After seeing this thread last night I watched that Savior movie again starring Dennis Quaid. f*** that was an awesome film.

anyway, it's over... for the moment.

"Over" in the same way the Israel-Lebanon war of 2006 is over?

yeah got thor Hammer to the face Rev?

also Quaid rocked in Flight of the Phoenix.

I like this statement... ummm Iraq was??? slightly hypocritical imHo!

The full quote from Bush actually mentions that he's only referring to invading a country with a democratically elected government... so Iraq was OK, really. See the difference?!?

so it is still on, who would have thought the Russians wouldn't hold to the cease fire?

it's on pay per view this sunday $29.95.

Yeah, aparently the russians are breaking the cease fire agreements (well, it turns out they only used it for a 5 hour nap, refuel, and lunch break).

But thats coming from Georgia, so take it with a grain of salt.

Alot of the EU heads are saying the right things, but not alot of them seem to be DOING the right things.

The US involvement according to the Georgian president:

In a television address, Saakashvili said an announcement by President George W. Bush of U.S. aid for victims of Georgia's conflict with Russia meant ports and airports would be taken under the control of the U.S. defense ministry.

Response from the Pentagon:

"That is not our understanding of the situation,"

Link

Reuters have a pretty good page dedicated to the whole thing. Best i've stumbled across so far.

I think that if they put NATO aid forces on the ground Russia would stop, or slow down.

I know it was extreamly convienient with Russia having such a large force there to launch a 'counter attack' but I feel they were well within their rights to do so. Taking it further is wrong though.

NATO people on the ground will make Russia step back and take a long hard think before they move even another inch forward.

I know it was extreamly convienient with Russia having such a large force there to launch a 'counter attack' but I feel they were well within their rights to do so. Taking it further is wrong though.

What rights? and keep in mind here, what they have legally done is invade Georgia.

Russia actually had NO rights to do anything. Just because an Australian dies over seas in a war torn area, doens't mean we can go and invade them.

If they wanted their peace keeping troops out, then all they had to do was withdraw.

I'm not for either side, but you must remember at all times here, russia have invaded Georgia, not the other way around.

Georgia invaded South Ossetia first.

You can't invade your own country.

giri is pro georgian!!!

The collapse of the Soviet Union spurred a separatist movement in South Ossetia, which had always felt more affinity with Russia than with Georgia. It broke away from Georgian rule in a war in 1991-92

and

August 8 - Georgian troops attack South Ossetian capital after a truce with rebels breaks down.

I'm not saying what russia did was right, just that you're wrong.

The South Ossetian people dont conceder themselves to be part of Georgia.
They even had a, /shock, Vote on the matter. It's just the Russians are the only people that accepted that vote (by the South Ossetian people).

Georgia then attacked them, Russia then Backed them up. Then Russia pushed forward past where they should have.

I'm keen for anyone to hold a Majority vote for independence and the world community should immediately recognise it (As long as it was a fair vote etc)

South Ossetia was it's own country, but now it's probably going to be owned by Russia anyway.

Look it up, South Ossetia is Georgian Territory, every one in the world recognises Georgeias claim to the land, and have denied South Ossetias claim to independance.

No, a "popular" vote on the matter isn't actually good enough. Despite this, the Georgian Goverment have offered them the ability to autonomus rule under a Georgian Banner. But they declined it. This is an extremely dangerous "acceptance" by you. If Wagga Wagga all of a sudden declared indpendance then i don't think the rest of Australia will be all too "accepting". People have tried this in the USA too, and it was quashed very quickly.

To say, THEN attacked would indicate this whole thing happened in weeks, it's been on going for 18 years or something.

Russia have even offered to help Georgia forcibly take control of the area back, as long as Georgia agreed to not join NATO, Georgia said no to that proposal.

I'm not pro-georgian, i think using force was the wrong way to get about it in the end. But if you think russia is in anyway in the right, you haven't read enough about the topic. I guess my stance on the matter is more anti-russian than pro-georgian.

Remember Chechnya? (i suck at spelling) yeah, russia wasn't all too pleased about areas in side its borders declaring independance.

Are there any hot Georgian women?

If Wagga Wagga all of a sudden declared indpendance then i don't think the rest of Australia will be all too "accepting".

you reckon?

yeah, i knew someone would turn around and poke fun of my choice of location for the example.

You see, I would have no problem with somewhere Like Tasmania having a vote for Tasmanians and having independance. If thats what all (majority) of the Tasmanians want to do then so be it. As long as they didn't want any free assistance for the running of their new country.

I dont understand why the 'World' will recognise one Area/Countries majority vote and not others. (IIRC It was the VAST like 90% + Majority that voted for Independance). Would they rather the people take up guns instead of Ballot papers and shoot their way to independance?

Why should any country have to give up any of its area because you choose to live on your own?

I declare my house the nation of giririsss, and will only pay taxes to my self, refuse to recognise any of australias laws, in my land, there is no such thing as copyright. etc etc etc.

There's alot of good reasons why you can't just run off and do this. The South Ossetians are really acting no better than terrorists and their behvaiour is treasonous [which in america is punishable by death i beieve] (obviously a very different situation, but if you want to put it in perspective), by just declaring their own law and telling everyone to f'off.

You're right, there was a 90% plus majority who wanted independance, but they also don't want to be part of russia, by the way.

I think you should be free to do that.
You'd be f***ed because you would have no Food, Water, Electricity or much of anything else, but thats your choice. Australia would have the right to deny any application to become part of Australia in the future, then claim your land when all the citizens of your Country (i.e. You) die.
Also, it would be hard to get payed (to pay yourself Taxes) when Australia denied you a work Visa.

I know they didn't, which is why I said they wanted/were their own, but will now probably be owned by Russia anyway.

last edited by Scooter at 15:30:28 14/Aug/08

I think that if they put NATO aid forces on the ground Russia would stop, or slow down.

That'd be a fun diplomatic stand off. Russia and NATO don't get on at the best of times, and I'm not sure too many countries would be all that happy sending in people at the risk of pissing off oil and gas rich Russia right now.

The point you're missing giri is that South Ossetia WAS an independant state, that was forced into Georgia because Stalin said so. The South Ossetians never wanted to be a part of Georgia and never should have been.

The point you're missing giri is that South Ossetia WAS an independant state, that was forced into Georgia because Stalin said so. The South Ossetians never wanted to be a part of Georgia and never should have been.

at international law that is not relevant, a territory can only secede if it's done with the sovereign's consent.

The point you're missing giri is that South Ossetia WAS an independant state, that was forced into Georgia because Stalin said so. The South Ossetians never wanted to be a part of Georgia and never should have been.

Really? Doesn't sound that way to me

The Ossetians are originally descendants of the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe. They became Christians during the early Middle Ages, under Georgian and Byzantine influences. Under Mongol rule, they were pushed out of their medieval homeland south of the Don river in present-day Russia and part migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains, to Georgia[15] where they formed three distinct territorial entities. Digor in the west came under the influence of the neighboring Kabard people, who introduced Islam. Tualläg in the south became what is now South Ossetia, part of the historical Georgian principality of Samachablo[16] where Ossetians found refuge from Mongol invaders. Iron in the north became what is now North Ossetia, under Russian rule from 1767. Most Ossetians are now Christian (approximately 61%); there is also a significant Muslim minority.

Sounds to me more like they are migrants who now want to just declare independance, with no real justification to do so. They didn't start protesting the Georgian Soverignty untill the USSR days, which sounds alot more like they were protesting the USSR.

Oh, and then there's infi's point too.

last edited by giririsss at 08:02:31 15/Aug/08

The weren't even a part of georgia until the USSR days.

Wait, did you not read the stuff i posted? Under Mongul rule they were forced out of the area they were living in, in Russia, and forced into 3 different areas, one being a chunk of then ruled and called, Georgia. Georgia was then consumed into the USSR. Once the USSR split up Georgia resumed control of the area as it was always theirs.

I love this forum; some country starts a war, and all of a sudden, everyone here has their masters international relations.

just as a side... australia did have a principality break away & form it's own country in 1969... hutt river province. it's pretty shakey legally but afaik they are still recognised internationally as a soveriegn state (or something).

hail prince leonard of hutt! ;p

I love this forum; some country starts a war, and all of a sudden, everyone here has their masters international relations.

yeah sux if you had one beforehand. :(