Heres a list I've compiled based on my last month or so.

You know you've been working too much when...

- You get home at 10pm and refer to it as an "early night".

- The guy who works the midnight shift at subway knows you by name

- You start using phrases like "Earlier this week" and "Back on monday" when its only Tuesday night.

- The shift at the 7-11 on the corner changes 4 times during your working day.

- When you visit www.qr.com.au for train times, your cookies are setup to display trains leaving between Midnight and 6am.

- You have more food and drinks in the fridge at work than you do in the fridge at home.

- An email comes through at 2am about a bug in your code... and you're there to receive it.

You like your job right? :P
that sucks khel...GO HOME :D

-When you make breakfast you use 5 teaspoons of coffee.

-When cabbies say to you: "Good on you mate" for working a long shift.

As lame as this sounds, I was chuffed as f*** after work one night I walked past a cabbie rank in my chefs pants and s*** and a cabbie said that to me. Sweet to hear recognition of hours worked from someone whos job is as long and late ( this was at about 10:30pm)

longest shift i have done was a 26 hour, god seening $1400 in the bank that week put a smile on my face :)

yeah 18 hr days suck, but you know your living the life when you get home and thers nothing to do, and all your friends work on the day you got off and that your room is clean because your hardly ever there...

when the morning shifts tells you not to bother locking the door, as your leaving the building.

after a really long night at maccas, we spent so long cleaning the place up, that the brekfast shift was arriving.

that night sucked.

[Q] yeah i remeber night shift in the cabs, i felt like it was a really long shift when i stayed out through morning peak hour so i wouldn't have to battle it to get home... lol then came out again for the afternoon peak

- You finish 3 RDOs in a row and realise youve still worked over 60 hours for the week. :/

While im trying to extend my e-penis... What's the longest shift you've worked with out a single break? Im talking no going for a smoke, no walking off to have a coffee. Just work, work, work. (maybe a toilet break but straight out and in s*** hehe, a straight out and in s***.)

Mine is 15 and a half hours.

You like your job right? :P

Nah, my job does rock, just been working heaps of long days/nights lately meeting deadlines :) But the extra work I do gets appreciated, and I get stuff like free dinners and free cabs home, so I dont mind so much.

What's the longest shift you've worked with out a single break? Im talking no going for a smoke, no walking off to have a coffee. Just work, work, work.

I dunno, I rarely ever work, work, work with no breaks. I mean, by "break" I'm talking about walking into the kitchen and making a coffee, or walking round the corner to the subway or 7-11 and getting something to eat or drink and bringing it back to the office. If I didn't do that I'd probably go insane :)

aye. I doubt there would really be many jobs where it might happen. Working in a kitchen and maybe I dunno... working at a pub or something might be the only ones. sucks to be me :D

If you think you have a s***ty job, or work in a s***ty place think of these poor bastards...

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/gpahl/work1.jpg

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/gpahl/work2.jpg

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/gpahl/work3.jpg

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/gpahl/work4.jpg

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/gpahl/work5.jpg

Rev posted:
http://www.members.optushome.com.au/gpahl/work4.jpg

The fat guy looks pretty happy....

and I bet the elephant s*** chick does things other than catch elephant s*** in a bag. :P

Well, my bosses say "We own you, we own your life" and the sad thing is, it's true *sob*. on call 24/7 to do a wide range of unecessary things, while being led by the unqualified, for the bloody ungrateful f***s. (i'm not supposed to be staying out of camp, but I got my ways around things ;) heh)

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/gpahl/work2.jpg
BTW, love this one :)
reminds me of a training exercise they do here too... but it's a dry run to learn the firing sequence for the rifle/marksmanship test.

dont talk to me about work!!

between 9am sunday and 1:30am wednsday morning, i have done 41.5 hours including 23.5 hrs in a 48 hr time period.

me so tired and sore :(

I know a guy who worked something ludicrous like 22 hours at a stretch.

He's a firefighter.

I suspect that it's probably illegal for him to have done so (when considering safety of others) but I guess fires just don't wait for that.

used to do long hours when i was a pleb

now im in IT i get tired round about the 7 hour mark of the day (3:30)
but i feel refreshed after my 1 hour ly down under my desk in teh arvo

Back in February I worked 22 days straight, no time off... the routine was pretty much:

1: Go to work, stay there for 10 hours or more, don't eat, or anything else for that matter, other than work.

2: Drive home (this got harder and harder as the days went on)

3: Eat something

4: Sleep and do it all again the next day!

Dreaming about stuff you do at work is pretty bad though. I've had them a couple of times where it's kinda like everything becomes part of this giant complicated PCB that i have to draw up, usually happens when i get bigger layout jobs where i might spend 2 weeks just hooking up the one PCB. It's very disturbing :)

- When you say you've had a week off this year, but it includes weekends!


Did it for four years running, Never again.

Damn, I wish I had a job... I bet being tired and pissed off from working beats having $0 in your bank.

*waits from application at IGA to go through*

Eh hehehehehe :)

I feel better about my work now. Though I still think I have the most annoying customer experiences ever.

Khel - are the extra hours productive? I find with programmers thay are only good for 4-5hours of productivity and it is important to accomodate them for a 4 hour uniterrupted stint, this leads to more productivity. Me personally, I bar all contact with the outside world between 3-6pm when I'm coding, support sucks cause you are always constantly interupted, for my support staff I make sure they have 10mins every hour to clear the mind and have a break.

Your right there Gumby, I find that the occurances of errors skyrocket once fatigue sets in. When it comes to straight up coding, pushing it hard just doesn't pay off.

When seeing the mess often created by coding in the twilight zone, I sometimes wonder why the hell the medical profession hasn't waken up to why over-tired surgions do incredibly dumb things like leave equipment in bodies after an operation.

for long coding hours. There is some pretty interesting research that suggests that if you keep software developers to a simular expectation of hours worked as any other profession you get much higher quality of work.

The research also shows that the traditional way of doing things (lone coders, coding late into the night/morning, with huge arse requirment specs and such) in general fails. On average (world wide) 80% of projects either fail to accomplish a product that the customer is happy with, or is over budget by a excessivly large amount.

One style of development I have been looking into is Agile Development. Its basic goals is to be more flexable towards clients goals. Agile development processes all have 40 hour weeks (Obviously crunch times things get wacky), and are starting to return some realy good examples of projects that actualy work ... the first time.

Khel - are the extra hours productive? I find with programmers thay are only good for 4-5hours of productivity and it is important to accomodate them for a 4 hour uniterrupted stint, this leads to more productivity.

Yeah, thats how most of the other guys here work, but I must be the exception to the rule or something. I find if I settle myself in for a long night I can be amazingly productive. When I'm here, late at night, by myself, devoid of distractions, sometimes I find myself more productive than I even was during the day. I've done some of my best work during all night stints.

I dont really find myself writing worse code either, although sometimes I'll hit a problem which I just can't figure out, and in that case I usually call it a night, because I find when I come back in the morning after sleeping on it, the answer usually comes to me. My subconscious must mull it over while I'm asleep or something :) So often I've hit a problem which I just can't figure out, then when I come back in the morning and look at the same problem, its like the solution is already stored in my brain and it just works. Like my brain has figured it out overnight and stored it away for when its needed.

I have a rather unique way of working, some may even call it eccentric. I'm a firm believer that coding is something you can't schedule neatly between a 9 to 5 day. Some days I'm just totally not in the zone, and can't focus at all, on those days I usually just go home because I know I'm not going to achieve anything. Other days, I'll be on a roll and just wont want to stop so I need the flexibility to be able to work late into the night. I've had a number of jobs in the past which have tried to pigeon hole me neatly into a 9 to 5 day, and it just doesn't work for me. Thats part of the reason I love my current job so much.

I dont have much respect for programmers who stick neatly to their nice little 9 to 5 days. The amount of time I work isn't governed by having to meet my daily requirement of 8 hours a day of work, its governed by the work I am doing. If its going to take a 12 hour day to really polish the piece of code I'm working on and make it humm, then a 12 hour day is what I'll work. I guess I'm just too much of a geek and take too much pride in what I do :)

Yeah, thats how most of the other guys here work, but I must be the exception to the rule or something. I find if I settle myself in for a long night I can be amazingly productive. When I'm here, late at night, by myself, devoid of distractions, sometimes I find myself more productive than I even was during the day. I've done some of my best work during all night stints.

Your velocity is going to be higer because of the lack of interuptions, and probably because your brain is attuned to being awake all night.

I use a modified Extreme Programing approach, but instead of using coding pairs I deligate modifications and bug fixed to other coders other than the coder who started the program, that way many eyes still see the code. Additionally I use the XP method of delivery small milestones every week to the customer to test, this way they see progress and remain involved the entire project which makes for more amicable client if a blow out occurs.

Again I don't believe that a person is more productive after working (actually working and putting in the effort) 12 hours, short sharp focused stints have always been my approach and the approach that my team members are incouraged to use, 20 years in this game has taught me 1 thing working smart doesn't mean long stressful hours.

*shrug* I guess in the end theres lots of different people who work lots of different ways. Would be a pretty boring world otherwise.

When I'm here, late at night, by myself, devoid of distractions, sometimes I find myself more productive than I even was during the day.

There is the awnser as to why you are more productive in the long hours, remove the distractions during the day and you will achieve the same.

There is the awnser as to why you are more productive in the long hours, remove the distractions during the day and you will achieve the same.

Nah, distractions prolly wasn't the best word. I dont really get distracted as such during the day, because I wear headphones most of the time anyway. Its just the atmosphere of being here late at night, all alone. Everything's quiet, no hustle and bustle of the working day, nice and dark outside. Its like my own little world and I can fully get absorbed in what I'm doing.

yep know that feeling, but I usually do it from the comfort of home (telecommute), most enjoyable if there is no stress of a deadline looming the next day.

i get to do half a dozen different jobs every day, whether it's coding or data analysis, or network management, or whatever.

It's cool. Full time coding is booooooooooooorrring to me.

i make sure i break up my intense (hoho) coding sessions by having a coffee break with the lads at regular times
when we get in,
8:30, coffee break;
10:00 morning tea, coffee break

1:00 post lunch coffee break
3:00 afternoon tea coffee break

4:35 just woke up from nap, coffee break

its good for the eyes, to have a break from staring at screen;
sure, im trembling like a leaf when i leave work and i cant sleep, but my eyes are fine and my code is written refreshed

The only reason you need all those breaks spook, is from being wired by all the coffee. *fidget**fidget*can't sit still must need another coffee break *fidget*

what are you coding khel?

taco: I wrote the hed serva for the interaweb.

Nah, I can't really talk about it, secret stuff :)

Coding is best done late at night.

The environment for programming effectively varys heaps between individuals. A lot of mates and myself find that we program better later at night (but that may be conditioning after doing it that way at uni and home). People can't treat programmers as pluggable units and assume that they all work the same. Programming is a creative art.

I find if I get no sleep my effectiveness during the hours of the morning is halved, if not worse.

Programing like all learned experiences can be trained to be turned on at anytime, productivity is directly proportional to the amount of out side interuptions and distraction.

Programming is a creative art.

Not all programing is creative nor art, it is simply a list of logical progressions to achieve an end result. There is nothing creative nor artistic about financial/business programing it usually involves adding numbers and making them balance, all this require logic and set formulae.

There is nothing creative nor artistic about financial/business programing it usually involves adding numbers and making them balance, all this require logic and set formulae.

Which is why I hate business programming. I did it for a while, basically drove me to the point where I never wanted to work in IT again, I was so pissed off with my job. Business programming also seems to go hand in the hand with the well dressed, suit and tie wearing 9 to 5 type schedule, which I've already established my intense dislike for :) Luckily I found theres much better jobs out there.

Where no all neo nazi's in suits, some of us actually look after our team, and also wear non suit clothing when possible. All my coders aren't require to wear suits, however a dress standard is maintained. 9-5 is subjective but required as this is when business is usually done, and users are usually using, and whores just keep a whoring. Sorry sliped into a bit of Primal Scream.

PS excuse the spweeling, warm fuzzies from that long farwell lunch I had today.

Must be nice to be in a job you enjoy, regardless of the hours you have to put in.....with my current job, if I had to work more than 7-8hrs a day, I'd go postal - absolutely hate my job - but then again, who enjoys helpdesk?

i like working 9 to 5

i like solving (business) problems

so there you go, programming can be different for everyone

http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/overtime.html enough said

*sigh*, i work minimum. 12 hours a day, at least 4 times a week. It sucks. I used to do 6 - 12 days straight alot, until they gave me a payrise and i didnt need to work as much :)

Still waiting for this IT job to come through...

the longest i have worked was 18 hours with a 15 minute break at 9 for break fast. i started at 6:00 worked until 5:00 then the boss asked me to work the night as well and then i finished at 12 didn't get home till 12:30 and had to start again the next morning at 6 again.

Maybe working overtime sucks the spirit out of your programmers, but it doesn't suck the spirit out of me. When I started this thread it was very tongue in cheek, I dont really mind working the long hours, its entirely my choice. My boss has never asked or told me to work the extra hours, I do it of my own volition when I think a bit of extra time working on a specific section would do it good. I get a great sense of satisfaction when the code is done, and I know its better than it would have been because I put in that extra effort.

Besides, I'm not a big fan of these programming paradigms, like "Xtreme" Programming. I hate some guy sitting there telling me what is best for me, and what is the best way for me to work. I know the best way for me to work, because I am ME. Some other guy, who doesn't even know me, whos written some book about Extreme Programming doesn't know me, so how does he know what the best way for me to work is?

People use Extreme Programming in the workplace ?

wow ? I thought it was just one of those imaginary ideas that uni lecturers liked to bore people with.

Besides, I'm not a big fan of these programming paradigms, like "Xtreme" Programming. I hate some guy sitting there telling me what is best for me, and what is the best way for me to work. I know the best way for me to work, because I am ME. Some other guy, who doesn't even know me, whos written some book about Extreme Programming doesn't know me, so how does he know what the best way for me to work is?

I'm not advocating anything, but in XP's defence perhaps you should read all the overviews before making comments. http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/fixit.html

We don't say if because we already know you will need to make some changes for your specific project.

They acknowledge the fact that everybody/project is different.

If you are doing anymore than an 8 hour day then one or more of the following apply;

1) Your not really putting in the effort.
2) Poor time management.
3) Poor project control has lead to a blowout.

Obes the basic principles are quite useful, the only rule that I consider bad practice is Pair Coding. Have one coder code the base, then all modifications and enhancments be deligated to another coder, this way you still have the many eyes on code principle.

Not all programing is creative nor art, it is simply a list of logical progressions to achieve an end result.

I'll clarify: I was talking about creating software from scratch, not code maintenance. I didn't say it was art, I said it was a creative art. Those steps you took to write a program from scratch are a logical progression, but this progression has to be created by the programmer. The data structures, program flow and objects (if its OO) all have to be created by the programmer. There is not set rulebook on how to solve programming problems. The logic and formulae you use in whatever application (accounting, engineering) are not created by the programmers, but specified by the client. You just have to implement this, and the way you choose to implement it is unique and creative.

Code maintenance requires a different set of skills and require a lot less creativity on the programmers part, hence why I find it so damn boring.

I am lucky at the moment because the projects I am working on are 'build from scratch' scenarios and I am allowed a lot of space in creative terms. This includes database schema design through to the interface.

Thundercracker Get back to me in 18, no 10, no 5 years and see if you express yourself the same way about coding then, either maintenance coding or development work, its all the same when you've done the same thing over and over and over and over again. The bean counters will tell you its unique and different, but its still a bloody T chart and double sided entry in the ledger time and time again.

How many different ways can you express sales figures is another favorite.

No the challenge for me now is to always bring it in on time under budget and with all the features they asked and specified in our weekly reviews.

Ive done 24 hours in a 48 hour period
start at 7, work till 7, rinse, repeat.

its all the same when you've done the same thing over and over and over and over again

I guess this applies if you are working in the same field of software over and over and over again. In my short experience I haven't had to do this, hence why I'm not so jaded :)

I really find that the diversity in what I write keeps me interested. Once the creativity goes (which it always does, i.e. debugging time) I get very bored, but this I can deal with. I'm just not sure if I could handle doing software that requires none whatsoever.

The bean counters will tell you its unique and different, but its still a bloody T chart and double sided entry in the ledger time and time again.

How many different ways can you express sales figures is another favorite.

No the challenge for me now is to always bring it in on time under budget and with all the features they asked and specified in our weekly reviews.

This is why I much prefer doing application development, vs building systems for businesses. Application development is much more creative, like Thundercracker said, you get to start from scratch and really build something. Then when you finish the project, theres always another new, exciting, different project to go on with. In the last 6 months of working here and building various windows apps, I've learnt more than I did in 5 years of business programming. The challenges I have to overcome and the problems I have to solve are also way more varied and wide ranging, so all in all its way way more exciting work.

Khel: you got me all curious now, can you really ambiguously tell us? :P

And I am jealous of most of you guys. I wish I could have a job, where I am working on a project (not coding, I don't have a mathamatically attuned brain) I have a passion for, pulling all nighters by myself, and having a finished product I can be proud of.

I feel that that is the exact type of job I would excel in, and not this target s*** that I am doing now, which is routine, routine, routine, with quite a bit of "DO IT MY WAY AND NO OTHER" thrown in as well.

Just a matter of finding the right thing I guess, untill then, boredom and monotony awaits!

Most of my programming is for Government agencies. Fairly large/medium size database system I guess about 2+ million rows (per State) and growing each quarters for QLD, VIC, SA and soon NSW and TAS state gov. to asses thier public servant HR data and reporting.

Sounds pretty boring eh? But I can assure you it is not. I kept me busy for the last 3 years, I wrote the app from the scratch and maintain it. Also upgrading it etc.

I've also written a few other apps that are used either whole or in part on some pretty big projects as well -- but they are mostly finance related stuff. I find it quite interesting.

I really don't mind doing either business app. development or pure app. dev. -- although I haven't had to do a lot of those of late.

Oh and I work from 9:30-5 most days, if there are work to be done then I'd stay back. I find that like Khel I can do more coding at night but, I also agree with Gumby, that coding while you are tired is not productive -- having done that myself I find that if I got too tired my code gets really messy. Usually I'd just packup, come back the next day and could solve the problem better. I'd rather work at night though as there are less distractions i.e. phone calls, ambient noises etc (I don't like to wear headphones).

My $0.02.

Just a matter of finding the right thing I guess, untill then, boredom and monotony awaits!

i worked at chicken shack (kfc) most of the time i was at uni

some days at the chicken shack i wanted to end it all, jump in the mat and cook myself up for 15 mins with lid on

use the boredom and crappy feelings as motivation to get the job you want

i lub my current job deeply

ooh boo hoo, sitting at a computer is real hard work.

try throwing/screwing gyprock onto perlings leaning out over a 10+ meter drop in the air for 10 hours

I reckon my job would be as hard. same with fubar though his is prolly worse cause hes in a chinese kitchen and that would be fruity I imagine :P

Khel: you got me all curious now, can you really ambiguously tell us? :P

Not really, its still too secret at the moment, deals are still being made, etc. But if it comes off, it'll be big :) The guy who runs the company I work for has some very big plans. I love working on s*** like this, so exciting being in the middle of it all :)

Few weeks ago the crunch was on to get a new mower built, simliar to a kubota tractor, but all power steering and hydrualic lifts etc. We had been doing most of it as a jobbing situation and not production so if we needed something, we couldn't jump on the CNC's and have the program spit some out for us, we had to use the lathe, very tiring when having to do 40 odd things. Anyhow when we actually had to build it, alot of s*** went wrong, mainly due to poor organisation in management, for a whole week, the tradesmen for I was working with worked 6:00AM - 1:30AM, some had to drive an hour to get home, I was lucky and got out of having to work those times, although a few nights I worked until 10:00PM, last machine we had to build my workmates didnt leave until 4:30AM, thats pretty crazy, my boss said by the time he got home he just had time for a shower and then head back to work.

Considering this is a more physcial job it would have been pretty body racking.

try throwing/screwing gyprock onto perlings leaning out over a 10+ meter drop in the air for 10 hours

Sucks to be you then!

I wouldn't mind the job at the top at all. Think of the view! phw0ar!

Climb the ladder, monty. Climb the ladder.

this thread has too much nerd in it for my liking

sifnt be an investment banker like me and get to play with phat lewt all day :D

Maybe working overtime sucks the spirit out of your programmers, but it doesn't suck the spirit out of me.

Thats bulls*** Khel, and if you reflect back you will see that a lot of your stress over time is from burn out. You can't always blame the type of work you have done, or because your bosses where always bulls***.

If you don't belive me ... talk to the rest of your friends.

Besides, I'm not a big fan of these programming paradigms, like "Xtreme" Programming.

You fail to grasp the entire point about XP programming. It isn't about "YOU MUST DO THIS!". It more about asking the question "why do most software development cycles fail"?

Agile development cycles look at what can be made to keep a developers velocity at a constant rate, indefenatly. Then it poses a bunch of themes to try and improve the overall progress.

What these ideas are trying to get programmers to do is at least reflect back and think .. wow is there anything I can do that speeds up my work and lowers my potential burnout?

I am pretty obsessive compulisve when it comes to coding. Once I start I havea hard time pulling myself away from it before I am done. However, I can reconise that after a month of long nights and no weekends life starts getting crappy, or at least my social life starts to get crappy.

When I first started looking into Agile development (and in particular XP), I just kept thinking HAHAH WHATEVER. Then I realy started to think about it, and it realy makes sense.

as for pair programming the basic principles are quite useful, the only rule that I consider bad practice is Pair Coding. Have one coder code the base, then all modifications and enhancments be deligated to another coder, this way you still have the many eyes on code principle.

I don't think pair programming is a bad thing ... just I don't think any business is ever going to realisitcly allow a bunch of coders to actualy allow you to do it.

The research shows that during the 4 hours that someone is coding as a pair (and their partner is coaching), the velocity of the coder is pretty much doubled, the code is less buggier, better tested, higher quality and allows for a much faster intergration of new team members faster than anything else.

Then take into account that the guy not coding can run interference from pesky pointy haired managers, answer questions and look at the biggest picture to keep all of your user stories on track ... I don't see how it can ba a bad thing.

Of course managers only see one person coding and think the world has ended.

I don't think pair programming is a bad thing ... just I don't think any business is ever going to realisitcly allow a bunch of coders to actualy allow you to do it.

Apparently, Mincom does this but then again they're not just "any" business are they ;).

I don't know how I feel about pair coding myself, I hate having someone watching over my shoulders. But I can see how it can improve the code quality -- as long as the 2 coders don't just sit there and chat about crap all day that is :).

Pair Coding why I dont use it;

I tried it, and found that most programmers are introverts, especially contract programmers, they like to get in and cut code. By using XP and its philosophy your code will be reviewed by another programmer at testing, and most likey be enhanced with a user request at the first client testing session, which leads to enhancements which are done by a different programmer.

Economics, no matter how hard you try to explain it to bean counters they just don't get it, 2 people sitting at one computer is not as productive as 1 computer per person. I've tried and tried so I adapted XP to suit the projects.

AS a final note about project management, its really important to understand the needs of your coders, the eccentric little bastards (and I say that with sincere affection) usually need a sturn clear cut deadline and direction, XP with its shorter more acheivable cycles best suits these individuals, 1 week cycles completed by lunch friday with a short review and lunch at the pub works well I find. Monday morning breakfast meeting at 7.30 and by 9am you have the entire week planned and everyone knows exactly what is required of them. Wednesday review meeting in the morning at 9am for 15mins to make sure everyones on schedule, and a Thursday mid afternoon usually 2pm 15min check up and that is usually all the group meetings required.

I could ramble on for ages, but all I can suggest to those interested in Project Management is to read the books on XP, do a MBA as most organisations will not even consider you untill you have that piece of paper, and develop your own personal approach.

Cheers for that advice, gumby.

- When you get home from work you still talk about work... hi guys :) (J/K)

ooh ooh i know khel! pick me pick me!

i know the secret na na na na nah

anyway, im bored.

Thats bulls*** Khel, and if you reflect back you will see that a lot of your stress over time is from burn out. You can't always blame the type of work you have done, or because your bosses where always bulls***.

Yeah, in the past its often sucked. At this job though, I dont really mind so much. I think the major difference is at this job the extra work is actually appreciated. I dont mind putting in extra time if I know its going to be appreciated. I've worked for companies in the past though that believe the working day finishes at 5:30pm and they just dont care what happens after that. Thats just gay.

Sure it can be annoying missing weekends now and then, or missing a friday night cos of work, but its long way from being annoying to sucking the spirit out me. I might bitch about it sometimes, but its not like I go home and want to put a bullet in my head because I can't bear another day at work.

Like I said earlier, theres lots of different coders who work lots of different ways. I dont see why I need something like this Extreme Programming when my way is working just fine. I dont have a project manager, I manage myself, and that works just fine also. I can see how many with a big team of programmers, something like that might be useful, but I'm not a big team of programmers, I'm one person :)

Yeah, in the past its often sucked. At this job though, I dont really mind so much. I think the major difference is at this job the extra work is actually appreciated. I dont mind putting in extra time if I know its going to be appreciated. I've worked for companies in the past though that believe the working day finishes at 5:30pm and they just dont care what happens after that. Thats just gay.

Sure it can be annoying missing weekends now and then, or missing a friday night cos of work, but its long way from being annoying to sucking the spirit out me. I might bitch about it sometimes, but its not like I go home and want to put a bullet in my head because I can't bear another day at work.

The point of the no over time rule is to be able to keep a constant level of work up, EDIT and keep that rate up forever. Including contractors comming and going, new projects starting and ending ... whatever it is the workload is constan.

It might take months and months, but eventualy people get sick of not being able to do stuff that normal people do.

Besides if you looked at agile development in any depth and then thought back to places of work which sucked ... then imagined what they would be like with an agile development plan. Chances are you wouldn't have hated your job.

The reason why those jobs realy sucked is because of the managers/bosses placing unfair expectations on you.

Like I said earlier, theres lots of different coders who work lots of different ways. I dont see why I need something like this Extreme Programming when my way is working just fine.

Why does any change happen? Because people look for something better and then test it out. Why did you learn c instead of ASM? Because it was more time effecient to do stuff in. Why is Java, VB and C# all the rage at the moment? For the same basic reasons.

I dont have a project manager, I manage myself, and that works just fine also.

Thats awesome! Agile development works for ones, twos, small groups or large groups.

I can see how many with a big team of programmers, something like that might be useful, but I'm not a big team of programmers, I'm one person :)

Agile development (like XP) probably does help large teams (I don't know I have never been in a large team environment). However it was mainly focused at small teams (the vast majority of IT projects are small team based).

Essentialy your argument is thus, "I don't need to learn anything new, because I am a coding ninja and at the moment I am having no problems!".

That's simply ignorant. If you had even had a brief look at Agile(XP) development you wouldn't have made some of the assumptions that you did ... more to the point you might have been able to actualy attack it with a bit of validiciy.

Gumby wrote:

I tried it, and found that most programmers are introverts, especially contract programmers, they like to get in and cut code. By using XP and its philosophy your code will be reviewed by another programmer at testing, and most likey be enhanced with a user request at the first client testing session, which leads to enhancements which are done by a different programmer.

That is going to change in the comming years, if for no other reasons than simple economics. Developers, designers and project manageres all have to be social animles ... if only to to fully grasp client needs.

Engineering is a good example of where IT is going to go. Most engineering graduates are expected to be able to work in multi-diciplinary teams, talk to customers, talk to business. IT can't expect to hide in its dark corners for too much longer.

Economics, no matter how hard you try to explain it to bean counters they just don't get it, 2 people sitting at one computer is not as productive as 1 computer per person. I've tried and tried so I adapted XP to suit the projects.

Yeah, I can imagine that to be the case. It even feels kind of wrong sometimes when you are practicing it (from a coding position).

AS a final note about project management, its really important to understand the needs of your coders, the eccentric little bastards (and I say that with sincere affection) usually need a sturn clear cut deadline and direction, XP with its shorter more acheivable cycles best suits these individuals, 1 week cycles completed by lunch friday with a short review and lunch at the pub works well I find. Monday morning breakfast meeting at 7.30 and by 9am you have the entire week planned and everyone knows exactly what is required of them. Wednesday review meeting in the morning at 9am for 15mins to make sure everyones on schedule, and a Thursday mid afternoon usually 2pm 15min check up and that is usually all the group meetings required.

The best parts about XP is that it means that a customer sees the product much, much earlier. Also the code is generaly less buggy and much more focused to the actual customers goals than empirical design/development.

The best parts about XP is that it means that a customer sees the product much, much earlier.

One could argue that can be bad for the project -- especially if your customers are one of those people who go "Well that nice but can you change this to this blah" or that they've got the pre-beta product and mistakenly think that the pre-beta product is badly broken and it doesn't actually work because the code to do that hasn't been written yet so you'd get something like "Oh BTW I was trying to do this and this but, they didn't work, how come? And are you going to fix that?".

Of course you can probably prevent 99% of these sort of problems simply but having tight spec and educate your customers that the milestones releases are not the final products.

Obviously nothing will be 100% fool proof but it has got to be better than just some doode hacking blindly away at the code and he got hit by a car...... or worst he lived and the buggy product got released! ;)

You know you've been working too much when...

crack the s***s and start banning people in #ausgamers

One could argue that can be bad for the project -- especially if your customers are one of those people who go "Well that nice but can you change this to this blah" or that they've got the pre-beta product and mistakenly think that the pre-beta product is badly broken and it doesn't actually work because the code to do that hasn't been written yet so you'd get something like "Oh BTW I was trying to do this and this but, they didn't work, how come? And are you going to fix that?".

Maybe you should read Agile development (in this case XP) before you start talking about it.

Of course you can probably prevent 99% of these sort of problems simply but having tight spec and educate your customers that the milestones releases are not the final products.

Sure you could ... but then it wouldn't be a agile develoment method would it?

Agile design/development is all about lightweight customer focused design, not heavy requirment specs which at the end of the day suck.

Obviously nothing will be 100% fool proof but it has got to be better than just some doode hacking blindly away at the code and he got hit by a car...... or worst he lived and the buggy product got released! ;)

Agile design/development isn't just some guy hacking away at code. Lightweight easy to change design, that's its key goals.

Maybe you should look it up in google, before you start saying how it should or shouldn't work.

typo before you get all too defensive about me critisising your preferred development method, I'd like to clear things up, I wasn't criticising it :).

I was merely making a passing obvervation one of the problem that it could occur and not having read or know anything about agile development, I have no doubt that it can handle this problem. That is why I said it's better than hacking code.


I'm not one to critisise anyone of thier preferred development methods because I realised that everyone is different, my point was merely a superficial observation of what you've said it's not meant to be taken as an authoritative opinion :).

typo before you get all too defensive about me critisising your preferred development method, I'd like to clear things up, I wasn't criticising it :).

I was merely making a passing obvervation one of the problem that it could occur and not having read or know anything about agile development, I have no doubt that it can handle this problem. That is why I said it's better than hacking code.


I'm not one to critisise anyone of thier preferred development methods because I realised that everyone is different, my point was merely a superficial observation of what you've said it's not meant to be taken as an authoritative opinion :).

I didn't say you where critising it ... The only way you can critique something is if you have knowledge on the subject.

Which was the point of my post ... it was obvious that you had no clue about XP development.

Being defencive would have been throwing lots of proof into the mix.