Anyone see the story on TV about the GST loopholes? For those who didn't watch the story, the gist of the situation is that anyone can start up false companies and receive hundreds of thousands of dollars from the ATO. Why? Because they don't appear to conduct audits properly.

Not only that, according to the tax accountant's association, the GST is currently as complex as the old taxation system and is set to become even more complex.

Well, so much for John Howard's so-called Tax Reform...

Oh and to those I went to school with: I win.

still searching for social justice hunter...

I also win :)

Oh and by the way, if its so easy for any old joe to do it, then how far do you think major corporations could take it considering they have hundreds of legal and accounting experts... hello tax evasion!

What do you win Phoenix? Can i win one too?

oh youve won alright, youve won more than youve bargained for...
mwaahahahahahahahhaahah*cough*

Hunter - This only proves that a poorly implemented GST sucks. If you look at other countries which have a GST or similar tax (not hard, lots of countries have one), you'll see that their systems don't have the same loopholes. This proves it's not the way the tax works but how it's implemented that is the cause of the problem.

This isn't a cue to roll back the GST and go back to our old system, it's a cue to look at the GST and see what went wrong, and improve the way the GST is implemented as well.

kinda like the Republic debate...

it wasn't that the Monarchy was particularly favoured, but the version of "Republic" they proposed was complete bulls***.

Rommel - Yeah, but I didn't like the Republic idea because it wasn't going to do anything, just waste money changing "Commonwealth" to "Republic".

Even so rcsgd, what did I say all those years ago? :)) I still remember that debate, now if only I could find pinky!

look there he is....
...
...
up your arse




j/k

it wasn't that the Monarchy was particularly favoured, but the version of "Republic" they proposed was complete bulls***.

Blame John Howard for wording the god damn referendum incorrectly. That dodgy son of a bitch knew exactly how to shut the republic argument down. God damn I hate him so much.

Hunter - You said that you were generally opposed to the idea of a GST because it'd make the poor poorer and the rich richer. Which isn't always the case, although it's the case here. I hope you realise it's only due to the implementation of the GST, it's not a reflection on how a GST is supposed to work.

Pinky's probably busy doing his Dad's Business Activity statements...

Hunter - I did see that.... f***ing ridiculous man.... one of the only real decent stories on ACA...

The guy actually reported himself, and STILL nothing happened... FFS!!!

Hunter - All the pro-republic groups agreed with the wording though.

rcsgd even if the GST would work, they [the government] should NOT have implemented it if they didn't know how to do it properly. Total hypocrisy when Liberals pride themselves on "economic" management.

Anarot: see what I mean? Tax evasion is a fact of life. One of my motivations for disliking sneaky rich bastards.

Hunter - All the pro-republic groups agreed with the wording though.

The thing is, it was the ONLY model which would have worked. If we had a system like America's (which is what most people wanted) it would end up just as corrupt. America's presidents aren't elected on their political merits or love of society; rather they are elected on their financial merits.

I'd have to agree with that, too. f***ing hell - something is wrong here!!!!!

i blame most of this situation on the democrates...i cant beleive that those nimrods had the deciding power last time, i mean they couldnt govern their way out of a paper bag!

now with natasha the only thing they are good for is asking directions to the good news week set

Hunter - Perhaps the opposition should've offered some constructive criticism of the GST, rather than just saying it'll f*** people over. They could've stopped the GST from being introduced if they'd know this, and there was nothing to stop them from figuring it out either...

vsft, well what do you expect... the democrats were formed by disgruntled libs...

Yeah - I wouldn't exactly say the GST made it any worse... perhaps it did though.. I don't think any of us are in a position to judge that. I think the Australian tax system has been f***ed long before the GST was in place.

Hahahahaah NO NO NO NO NO!! You cannot compare teh Democrats to the Liberals.... the Liberal and Labour parties may be useless and stupid, but the Democrats/Greens/One Nation are on a whole higher level of chronic stupidity!!!

On the topic of our country being f***ed, i was interested to read an article in Marie Claire, about what foreigners (London, NY) think about australia in relation to how we are handling the Asylum Seekers.

Basically they think we're handling it the wrong way, and they think John Howard is a "hard nut". Some s*** along the lines of that anyway, they think we are cruel!

Face it, all our pollies and parties suck. We have such a s*** choice.

I've bet non of them have had any formal(uni) training in how to run a country. I bet most of them won their seat because they knew what to say and when, not knowing/caring what is best for the people. As the people dont know what is best for them, they'll just vote for the guy that says the right things.

I rekon we should start the Gamers Party :D

only if u do the werk

Tollaz0r! - Great idea :P

And there's no formal training to become a pollie...

Sif i wouldn't f***ing rule at the job!

Cool, I can live with Cruel, What with other contries having harder imagration policys.

Who gives a f*** what other countries think of us.

I think Hunter and I should be the opposing leaders of the countries major parties.

ALthough I would win too easily... :P

I've bet non of them have had any formal(uni) training in how to run a country. I bet most of them won their seat because they knew what to say and when, not knowing/caring what is best for the people. As the people dont know what is best for them, they'll just vote for the guy that says the right things.

Most politicians (significant ones at least) usually have a law degree or something similiar.

Who gives a f*** what other countries think of us.

That is unbelievably arrogant. We are part of the world, therefore we abide by world rules. If other countries adopted that stupid mantra there would be all out war.

I think Hunter and I should be the opposing leaders of the countries major parties.

ALthough I would win too easily... :P

Sounds good to me (the party leader bit, not the winning bit :)).

Would make for an interesting question time :) In reality I think we could match it with the current polititians pretty easily, maybe witha little more in depth knowledge of certain things.

Indeed.

Hay If Paulin Hanson could do it, surly we could start our own party. I mean if a stupid bitch can do it, surly us smart gamers could.

and I'm sure most of us are smarter then the average pollie.

But do we have the needed public knowledge/opinion to win the votes?

Yer we'd get the hardcore gamer votes, but what about the pensionors, or the rural non cable people? or the ...

I think I can relate well to the needs of average people. Some of you might laugh at that, but in reality I think you will find I have a far better social conscience than most.

Hunter, if you were the last political candidate on the planet and the ballot paper had the one check box for you, I would break the pen, rip the paper up, and burn the ballot boxes to the ground.

You have to be fair and of a sane mind to be a political candidate.



You are neither

GST well...its GST its gay for businesses as they get f***ED OVER by a mountain of paper work...while there are still a lot of loopholes...anyone know that the government made a f***LOAD (dun know excact amount somwhere in billions) in extra tax revenue this year from "shadow businesses" (unregistered)

Only one thing certian in life death and taxes :)

Think of it this way!! the government gets more money to give to the dole bludgers :S (*waits for the flames to come rollin in*)

Well what we'd need is someone who people would like, a puppet if you will.

Who do we know that people wuold like and would vote for. That person would also have to do what we say, behind the scenes.

OOOOeeer We could have our very own QGL Conspiricy :D

Mechanical Space Ninja, thats nice because the feeling is quite mutual let me assure you. And don't start bulls***ting about sanity either. You lack compassion and reason - I remember you blaming the government for an issue which affected your life, even though they had NO control over it. You are the unreasonable, insane one my friend.

People like to be lead by someone who cares about them, not deranged, unreasonable right-wing fundamentalist wackos, not mentioning any names.

LOL troll...that would be cool!! then wed be the dodgy polititions and pocket some extra revenue

Hunter, you wouldn't have a f***ing clue. Tax reform was started by the Coalotion with the TLIP (tax law improvement program) which introduced the highly simplified Tax Assessment Act 1997.

Then came the New Tax System which removes a multitude of wholesale tax rates with one generally applicable GST rate (and removed - or is in the process of removing - many of the painful state based taxes like FID).

Then came the Capital Gains Tax reforms to make CGT simpler and provide more incentive to capital investment in our nations.

The Trusts reforms were shelved to protect to the Aussie battlers on the land who use trusts to stream the ri seasonal income earners much to your disappointment I am sure (although it would have reaped billions from big business and would probably be in the country's interests to catch those who pay little tax).

The Company Taxation rates have been reduced to provide business with incentive to employ. The Beattie govt would do good to remove payroll tax while we are at it.

Taxation Law is a very complex area of the law so get ur facts straight. I used to work for the ATO. And ATO doesn't make the tax law complex. They are just responding to the legal challenges taxpayers make, to contonually close uo loopholes.

Tax simplification and equity is an ongoing process and the Coalition have done a s***load more than your fiscally illiterate buddies in the ALP. Their fiscal policy is spend, spend, spend. Look at Keating and Kirner and now Beattie in Qld. No f***ing idea.

John Howard (and Peter Costello) are the only ones with the balls to do the things they did and they saved us from going under during thew late 1990's Asian economic crisis. Don't forget that.

Man that cluepon page would come in handy right now....

QGL Party.

Polocies include.

Giving Ziggy the slaping with a large trout and making him amend his ways.

Replaceing the Senator of Communication.

Introducing a gameing class for all schools.

Increase teacher ability to smack students.

Make QGL our offical LAN, so they pocket some more phat lewt.

infinex, I never said I was an accountant you fool... I simply report the facts as they are presented.

yeah well like all current affairs... the info has been OVERsimplified. Learn about the subject before u venture into it. I am a coalition supporter sure... but on any objective assessment they have done far better than the ALP did in its 13 years.

The deregulation of the economy that Keating did push through (floating dollar, enterprise bargaining, assets sales :p) were all leaves out of John Howard's book anyways.

My gf is an a/c and she says the NTS is a piece of piss compared to how it used to be, plus it forced all small businesses to buy computers (yay) and report quarterly.

This results in less insolvencies and better tax compliance.

Tax simplification and equity is an ongoing process and the Coalition have done a s***load more than your fiscally illiterate buddies in the ALP. Their fiscal policy is spend, spend, spend. Look at Keating and Kirner and now Beattie in Qld. No f***ing idea.

Shall I mention the Fraser government?

John Howard (and Peter Costello) are the only ones with the balls to do the things they did and they saved us from going under during thew late 1990's Asian economic crisis. Don't forget that.

I think you confuse "balls" with being cold-hearted, mean, out-of-touch and tricky. Just because they save money doesn't equate to good political leadership - it means they don't give a toss about REAL PEOPLE.

Their fiscal policy is spend, spend, spend. Look at Keating and Kirner and now Beattie in Qld. No f***ing idea.

That's odd because Beattie has encouraged growth by offering companies significant subsidies and tax benefits for basing their operations in QLD. I'm reluctant to use the "cranes on the skyline" as a measure but its true - QLD is booming thanks to Beattie's brilliant balance between the needs of the capitalists and the needs of real people.

Pfft artificial growth at the expense of budget surpluses. Money creation at its biggest and best. The losers are the people who do business honestly and don't rely on Beattie's handouts to get ahead. Completely shafted by a politically biased porkbarreling system.

I am totally opposed to Beattie's direction in this area. Business should able to make money based on their efficiency and brilliance - not on how much additional taxpayer funding they secure?!

Pfft artificial growth at the expense of budget surpluses. Money creation at its biggest and best. The losers are the people who do business honestly and don't rely on Beattie's handouts to get ahead. Completely shafted by a politically biased porkbarreling system.

I am totally opposed to Beattie's direction in this area. Business should able to make money based on their efficiency and brilliance - not on how much additional taxpayer funding they secure?!

It's not a case of throwing money at people to appease them. The fact is that corporations don't want to base their operations here UNLESS there is a benefit for them. In this case its a mutual benefit - they are given tax subsidies and we are given jobs and a boost to the economy. Beattie is a shrewd politician and I believe that most of his critics are simply motivated by jealousy rather than geniune concern.

Business should able to make money based on their efficiency and brilliance - not on how much additional taxpayer funding they secure?!

What is ur opinion on this statement? Your opinion on this will say it all IMO.

Business should able to make money based on their efficiency and brilliance - not on how much additional taxpayer funding they secure?!

That is true, but not when efficiency or short-term profit is held in higher regard than social responsibility. To simply say that these businesses are given money without a second thought is naive: the government would have entire departments of public servants scrutinising any and all potential candidates for government funding.

rofl look at you two.

Your both wrong. Both our government options suck. We lose both ways so meh.

Exactly!!! Winners are based on their true ability to generate profits based on their initial capital start up. Government funding just distorts these calculations.

Howard (with the SA labor govt) has just done the same in funding Mitsubishi. Howard is just as guilty in this instance.

Protectionism may save jobs in the short term but it is just saving a dying industry. When new cutting edge businesses are fighting for survival. If we (Australia) can't make cars at a profit why should we continue doing it?

Business is for winners - not for deserving causes. That is "charity". Charity - welfare - is for needy and disadvantaged people.

That is why tax reform is better. It makes a fairer and safer system in which ALL businesses can make profits - not just the privileged funded few.

And Toll, it is not fair to criticise earnest efforts to make the life better for us all.

Until you provide an alternative clam it. Unlike the continual whingers, make a constructive contribution and offer a solution :p

It's better to try and fail then not to have tried at all by sitting on sidelines throwing rotten fruit.

I dont throw rotten fruit, I just watch them throw rotten fruit at each other.

Better then long winded debates on why a government is better then another, when really all that does is make for a messy pile of fruit.

Naricism at its best. Go the informal vote! *sigh*

then im the Queen ...

YOUR BANNED c*** !
:P

banned wtf!

Unfortunately, protectionism is politically popular because people in general have no clue how economy works and short-sighted.

As with Howard's tax reform... I wouldn't call that as a proof of he and the treasurer having "balls". Frankly, I think the introduction of a GST (which by nature is a regressive tax, thus the rich and the big company pay less tax than under a progressive tax, e.g. income tax) is actually quite in keep with Liberal's policy (i.e. sucking up to the big companies). I very much doubt Howard really has the country's best interest in mind. If he really wanted tax reform, he could reform the existing tax system, rather than introducing another set of tax system (which will only complicate things and confuse the public).

And really, how anyone could possibly defend GST as a fair tax system is just beyond me. Let's not pick on the government's imperfect implementation of the GST. But fundamentally, GST puts heavier burden on poorer people (relative to their ability to pay). It is of course possible to make certain items GST-free so as to lessen the regressiveness of the GST system, but such exemption will always be inadequate and complicates implementation. Seriously, open up any economic textbook, you'll know right away GST is for the rich, not for the poor.

Anyway, do take my comments with a grain of salt, 'coz I really hate John Howard and his handling of refugees. I really have no respect for him. It's hard for me not to be very critical of him and his government.

the issue of the GST's relative burden on lower income people is the biggest problem with this tax however, tax law theorists say it isn't the tax system which should be used to correct social inequalities - that should be the welfare system.

as seen by now, a progressive tax system complicates its application. if poor people tend to be paying more taxes relative to their income then they should be compensated not by tax breaks but by welfare payments and other benefits (health care, vouchers etc).

In a way, a tax system designed "for the rich" as you put it is a good thing - such as the flat tax proposals mooted in the US.

Every extra $ earned is taxed at the same rate and therefore does not penalise success. People actually have a reason to work harder.

The progressive tax scheme is just as hard on middle income earners. What incentive is there for them to take up a second job or do that extra night shift when they know they will be taxed at 48.5% rather than their marginal tax rate?

I am happy with the tax system compared to how it used to be. I just wish I didn't have to get that bloody private health care cover :p

Unfortunately, protectionism is politically popular because people in general have no clue how economy works and short-sighted.

So what becomes of the thousands of workers who lose their jobs? If the practice of closing down mfg plants and what have you were allowed to run rampant there would be mass unemployment. Less people in employment means more on benefits and less paying income tax. That aside, I don't see why workers should have to bear the brunt of corporate mismanagement.

I would welcome a government which reduced the salaries of politicians and increased the penalties for corporate criminals.

the issue of the GST's relative burden on lower income people is the biggest problem with this tax however, tax law theorists say it isn't the tax system which should be used to correct social inequalities - that should be the welfare system.

Is this the same welfare system that John Howard and his cohorts would dearly love to scrap? ;)

The poor deserve a tax break, this just s***s me more and more every time I hear it. Those who burden the system more should be taxed more as they are the primary users. Being single and earning more than most I'm sick of paying 48.5 cents in the dollar tax, then have some f***ing group of losers who have the misfortune to have produced off-spring that will have the same flawed genetics, put their hand out for more please cause we are too f***in stupid to realise we can't afford to have childern, let alone be allowed. As for being socially minded, I pay taxes and other people benifit from it good for them I dont begrudge them if they truely desrve it.

Middle Australia is getting sick of being the flogging horse of all those bleeding heart pollies who really don't give a s*** unless it gets them on the tele or gets them votes. Look at Beatie he would go to a leg opening if it got him on the tele. What has he done, sweet f*** all, QLD has the higest unemployment figures in Australia, worst than SA, and what has he really done about it, not much, yes we had virgin, whoo f***in hoot, 2000 jobs, Boral have laid off 3000 in QLD alone in the last 12months, net gain -1000 jobs.

Annnd the bigot of the month award goes to....

So what becomes of the thousands of workers who lose their jobs? If the practice of closing down mfg plants and what have you were allowed to run rampant there would be mass unemployment. Less people in employment means more on benefits and less paying income tax. That aside, I don't see why workers should have to bear the brunt of corporate mismanagement.

Protectionism does not work, just look at the past.

There is a reason why people trade. And obstructing one person in one country from trading with another person in another country is just plain stupid.

And obstructing one person in one country from trading with another person in another country is just plain stupid.

Try telling that to America.

Annnd the bigot of the month award goes to....

Funny how someone who has never had a job, or had the missfortune to have to pay such levels of tax is such the advocate for the masses.

Protectionism does not work, just look at the past.

Then what is the solution? And don't say inaction - that will not work either.

Back to "sweaty bum crack" again, I really think you have no idea. The way you stereotype people on welfare is disgusting and only demonstrates your lack of understanding. You might be a well-to-do programmer but that does not mean everyone had the same opportunities as you. No doubt you grew up in some middle-class secure living environment where your every whim was satisfied. And don't give me that crap about controlling your own destiny because that is utter bulls*** and a copout generated by people who don't want or can't understand that not everyone is as lucky as they are.

Funny how someone who has never had a job, or had the missfortune to have to pay such levels of tax is such the advocate for the masses.

Maybe because I've seen things you probably don't even know about. You are a typical example of the clueless, whinging, white-collar Australian. I can guarantee you'd probably be wanting welfare payments if you were in the same position as the people you regard as a "f***ing group of losers". Get over yourself.

Well lets see, firstly I grew up in rural Australia, you know the highest levels of unemployment and welfare per capita, so I would say I have seen it. I have seen people unwilling to move in order to get a job, I have seen professional mothers collecting welfare for their 3 childern, all from different fathers, I have seen 3rd generation unempolyed using the system, I have seen people unwilling to move in order to gain employment. I moved why can't they do the same?

It doesn't matter what you do their will always be these people, this is just the way it is and all ways will be, get used to it.

hunter is a dole bludger there is no doubt about it, he wont even go and get a s*** job to get off the dole, he would rather stay on the dole and say "getting a s*** job is against my personal ideals" or make stupid excuses like "im too old", how much do you get on the dole hunter, i bet i EARN more then it.

whinging, white-collar Australian.

your the biggest whinging white collar australian i have ever met, you whinge about everything, not having a job, taxes, giant companys trying to take over the world. you get over yourself.

Well lets see, firstly I grew up in rural Australia, you know the highest levels of unemployment and welfare per capita, so I would say I have seen it. I have seen people unwilling to move in order to get a job, I have seen professional mothers collecting welfare for their 3 childern, all from different fathers, I have seen 3rd generation unempolyed using the system, I have seen people unwilling to move in order to gain employment. I moved why can't they do the same?

It doesn't matter what you do their will always be these people, this is just the way it is and all ways will be, get used to it.

Perception is everything. People don't always have to give reasoning for their situations - why the hell should they justify their problems just for your peace of mind?

Moving is an expensive and sometimes difficult process for a lot of people. Where do you suppose these people pull the money from? Magic money plantations?

Before you continue to shoot your mouth off, I want 2 pieces of information:

1) Did you go to a private school?
2) Were your parents well-off?

Don't falsify the answers either - I remember everything and I will not hesitate to capitalise on future discrepancies in your story. In other words, don't lie because it will come back and bite you in the arse.

your the biggest whinging white collar australian i have ever met, you whinge about everything, not having a job, taxes, giant companys trying to take over the world. you get over yourself.

Uhh genius I'm not a "white-collar" worker... figure out what the term means before using it in future.

Private school yes, only because I lived 140kms outside of Hughenden and there was no High School.

Where my parents well off, no they weren't, infact they were bankrupted in my final years of schooling, by the big nasty bank.

o yeah i forgot..... YOUR A DOLE BLUDGER. yours till another whinging australian, even tho you think your not.

Where my parents well off, no they weren't, infact they were bankrupted in my final years of schooling, by the big nasty bank.

Yet you still vote for the coalition? You know what John Howard would tell you if you told him that? Sorry, that's free enterprise. You are one of the political oddities that populate Australia.

Yet you still vote for the coalition? You know what John Howard would tell you if you told him that? Sorry, that's free enterprise. You are one of the political oddities that populate Australia.

When did I say I voted for the coalition? I never once stated this yet you take it for fact, why?

When did I say I voted for the coalition? I never once stated this yet you take it for fact, why?

I don't need you to tell me - its almost a given based on the anti-labour rhetoric and right-wing views expressed or implied in nearly every post you've made on a politically or socially charged thread.

HunterThe way you stereotype people on welfare is disgusting and only demonstrates your lack of understanding

Ditto to you sir.

OH and the way you sterotype people who have a different point of view to yours is just stupid, if you were a card carring Labour support you would realise that these sentiments are also echoed within the Labour party.

tax systems will ALWAYS have loopholes for savvy people to find. that's how it is. these holes will continually be found and patched. sometimes so many holes are found that a new approach might be needed. It's a cycle, and don't expect it to magically change just because someone has what you think is a theoretically sound idea for a tax system.

can someone make a 'oh no not another hunter vs the world thread' picture or one that says something similar 'oh not not another thread by hunter'

use his picture and be creative! ill shout the winner a beer and other cool stuff :D

hehe I don't know much about politics at all.

But, have you ever watched those shows on ABC where it televises the politician thingy (where they all go and they have a madam chair etc)?

I almost cry when I see those... I find it incomprehensable that these people are the people making decisions for this fine country.

John Howard: You Are a Stupid, Stupid man!
Kim Beasley: Am not!
John Howard: You are too!
Kim Beasley: MADAM CHAIR! HE'S PICKING ON ME!

lol verticalseafoodtaco

few pages back someone mentioned budget surpluses?
you said they were bad?? WTF!!
do you KNOW how much foreign debt we have...in total 300 billion ((Government and Private) last year) and on the rise...a deficit just makes future governments pay it off..the howard government is attempting to pay it off which is a GOOD thing which means in the future the government will have more money to play with :)

Exactly right Fireblood... future generations paying for the present's indulgeneces. Keating did that for most of the 13 years ALP were in power.

Tax and welfare isn't being about the rich or about the poor. Like Sweaty BC said, middle Australia is continually flogged by labor whenever its gets into a tight spot (fiscally). Give us all a break. I am over the 48.5c too and lament seeing so much of my $$ going to wasted causes (*cough* ATSIC *cough*).

Although there is little sympathy for the mega rich, the reality is that they also have the ability to generate mega-employment.

But never forget middle Australia and small business are the drivers of the economy. Taxing them out of existence will only place MORE people on the dole queues.

Where the system is fair, even, and simple then everyone just gets on with improving standards of living by being employed and selling our stuff to other countries for the biggest profit.

IT IS NOT EVIL TO MAKE A PROFIT. Get that through your head Hunter. Profits are good. It means that the citizen has been successful at what they did.

Running a country at a loss (deficit) is just as crazy as running a business at a loss yet we returned labor time and time again for doing that. Hoodwinked the public completely!

BTW Pharcyde... ur living in last year mate - it's Simon Crean now - he's the new buffoon.

Exactly right Fireblood... future generations paying for the present's indulgeneces. Keating did that for most of the 13 years ALP were in power.

Again, I point out the fiscal mess the Fraser (liberal) government left once their reign of terror ended...

Although there is little sympathy for the mega rich, the reality is that they also have the ability to generate mega-employment.

You must be living in a parallel dimension because last I looked downsizing was still the flavour of the modern world.

But never forget middle Australia and small business are the drivers of the economy. Taxing them out of existence will only place MORE people on the dole queues.

Funny you should mention that because a the number of small businesses closing up has dramatically increased since the introduction of the GST... Sure its good for bean-counters, but the rest of us have to pay for those bean-counters.

IT IS NOT EVIL TO MAKE A PROFIT. Get that through your head Hunter. Profits are good. It means that the citizen has been successful at what they did.

I've never said it was. What I did say is that its EVIL to make a profit unethically (which most companies do). I like businessmen such as Richard Branson - they appear to be very adept at striking a business between the needs of society and their own interests.

I don't know if you've ever done any management subjects (I've done more than I care to remember) but screwing people over isn't the way to run a business that you want around for a long time. Unless of course you are in a monopoly... (still unethical though).

Let me say it for the nth time: Making profit is OK provided it is done in an ethical and socially responsible manner. People need to be empowered to fight these bastards.

Financial matters aside, the Coalition has no idea about diplomacy - John Howard has pissed off so many countries during his reign of terror of Australia. Its not just about money; people who think like that are shallow human beings with no regard for others.

tax systems will ALWAYS have loopholes for savvy people to find. that's how it is. these holes will continually be found and patched. sometimes so many holes are found that a new approach might be needed. It's a cycle, and don't expect it to magically change just because someone has what you think is a theoretically sound idea for a tax system.

or you could just scrap the whole concept of tax

So how do you plan on paying for the administration of a nation without taxation, Hast?

Tax in one form or another has been around since the beginning of civilisation, so I'm fairly sure its probably the best way of doing things.

So how do you plan on paying for the administration of a nation without taxation, Hast?

the goodwill of people of course

I doubt that would work, most people are too self-involved and greedy to bother about anyone else. Quite a self-defeating attitude but one can't change the will of someone who has never been told "no" by their parents.

FFS... Budget surplus can be a good thing or be a bad thing, depending on the circumstances. Don't bring foreign debt into the debate. True, it helps with our foreign debt situation, but ffs, the great majority of our foreign debt is borrowed by the private sector!! True, having budget surplus may be one way to help minimising the effect, but boasting about having budget surplus during economic downturn is just plain stupid. (Budget surplus worsens economic downturn... it is often used to prevent economy from overheating. You can think of it as a "brake" sort of thing.)

As with the foreign debt, you NEED other policies to deal with it. Fiscal policy IS NOT the most effective weapon. To deal with it, you need economic structural reform, you need to improve national saving, you need to improve our export, etc. There are many many things that can be done. True, cutting down government spendings will help the situation a tiny bit, but those spendings could've been spent on microeconomic reform (which in the long run will improve our international competitiveness, etc and be the real solution to our foreign debt problem.)

As with protectionism protecting the jobs of thousands of workers... yes, of course it does, that's why it is immensely politically popular. You probably can blame corporate mismanagement, etc... but how about protectionism protecting our domestic farm industry? Either way, whether there is corporate involvement or not is probably irrelevant. The problem with protectionism is that it protects the inefficient industries. You also realise that these protected industry actually charge consumers more than that should because of their domestic monopoly?? So these protection may protect the jobs of thousands of employees, but they penalises everyone else in Australia. Ideally, protection should all be scraped, and there should be schemes in place to help these retrenched workers to gain new skills and find new jobs in another industry. That way our economy is kept lean and efficient and unemployment doesn't rise.

As with the tax debate.... I think the problem in Australia is that the tax brackets are just way too low... in the sense that it is really easy to reach the top tax bracket. Thus the middle income earners share just as much tax burden as the millionairs. Also, why shouldn't the poor get a tax break? I mean, if they are just lazy bums then yes, they should suffer, but a lot of poorer people simply didn't have the opportunities that middle class and upper class taken for granted. If we tax the lower class heavier because they use the wellfare system more, that the poor will never have a fighting chance to climb up the social ladder. In my opinion that is just not fair... we might as well go back to the old feudal system if that's what we want to have. In fact, I'd rather have communism!!

I agree with you re protectionism and tax reform. earnings have grown fast it doesn't take too much to get into the 48.5c bracket!

However, if a business does not make profit it goes broke. Why should a govt be different? Balanced books are just a symbol of discipline if anything else. The extra money spent by a govt deficit just contributes to inflation and thus depreciates the value of the working man's wage... so fiscal stimulum isn't necessarily the answer if it requires deficit spending. It is money that was never really there to start of with.

Look at argentina as a good example (sixty minutes last Sunday night...) they just print money to get out of every sticky situation and look where it got them.

Forfeign debt is controlled by floating currencies. The more debt you have, the less desirable your currency is. In turn if imports are not curtailed then a nation's currency becomes worthless. Once again the market prevents diligent countries from spending beyond their means.

Those who ignore the signs face a different fate....

Where the foreign debt is foreign investment then in the long run this is supposed to generate exports and so isn't such a worry.

Ignoring this debate for a second, I read in the paper the other day that the US dollar is the world's most overvalued currency. I wasn't surprised to read that either.

Well... printing money is kind of monetary policy, not really fiscal policy. But yes, I agree that budget deficits cannot go on forever. The whole point though, is that fiscal policy is one of the major tool any government has in SMOOTHING out the ups and downs of business cycles. I was more making the point that it is stupid to boast about budget surplus during economic downturns... because budget surplus makes economic downturns worse.

On the other hand, structural reforms will determine the overall growth in future. Removing protection, tax reform, training programs etc. all more or less come under this heading and help our nation's growth potential.

As with the foreign debt situation... *sigh*, too difficult an issue. But yeah... our ever increasing foreign debt is probably most responsible for the decline in our currency's worth.

As with running the government like a business... well, I really don't know about that. Personally I am probably a bit of a socialist, and I can't say I like the idea of a government behaving like a big business. I mean, businesses think for themselves and all they should care about is profit. I don't think government should only think about profit and think for themselves. Surely the government is there to run the country, keep the economy going, and keep the nation safe. For example... if the police force only think about money, then criminals will go loose and we ordinary citizens will get speeding ticket/parking ticket every week. (Of course the police department isn't the government... I was only using that as an example for profit-orientated government organisation isn't necessarily serving people's best interest.)

But yes, the government shouldn't just print money to solve problems... Only dumbwits like Hanson would even seriously consider that. (Then again, I bet a lot of ordinary Australians probably doesn't understand why printing money isn't the solution to the government's financial problem.) (BTW, One Nation's policies s***s me to tears.)

(BTW, One Nation's policies s***s me to tears.)

Heh, I wonder why the Liberal party borrowed them... :).

What I find most amusing is that the Liberal party would be nothing without the National party and the national party would be nothing either way.