Late last week I threw my back out picking up a box. It was pretty bad and required morphine and other stuff to get me off the floor. I've had massage today which has helped heaps, and tomorrow I'll hit up some sports remedial massage + hot tubbing which I expect to help even more.

I thought I'd also give chiro a go as I've never tried it and heard good things. Any experiences and recommendations in the toowong/indro/taringa area?

ive seen chiro, physio and osetopaths for my back:

none of them really gave me any immediate relief

^ Because normally you have to do specific exercises to work the affected areas to right the wrong...which takes a while.

Nah, cause it's a scam.

I thought I'd also give chiro a go as I've never tried it and heard good things. Any experiences and recommendations in the toowong/indro/taringa area?

Really? I've never heard any good things about chiros. I'm pretty sure amongst the medical community they're not really considered to be a particularly good idea.

Fortunately for you I remember every single thing I've ever read on the Internets! Bad Astronomer did a thing about chiro a while ago and referenced this site which is a lot of stories about bad chiro experiences. They mostly have citations, but of course YMMV, who knows which ones are real.

Here's the BA post which might be of interest; it involves a case where the British Chiropractic Association tries to sue this bloke.. I didn't read too much but his page on Facebook has a stack more information.

I'm sure nubbin will check in at some point to e-rage at chiros, I'm pretty sure she's a hata as well.

I can recommend physio if you don't mind being horribly punished as part of your recovery. I go to Allsports at Indro (see Amy and tell her I sent ya!) and they're really good.

Massage is a good idea. Have never been to a chiro so can't comment, though I've been told it's good. Have you ever considered acupuncture though? There is significant evidence to prove its usefulness for pain.

^ Because normally you have to do specific exercises to work the affected areas to right the wrong...which takes a while.

When you think about it, its kind of weird that people think they should get immediate relief to ailments. If you think of the possible causes of pain, you gotta either wait for muscle or connective tissue to repair, muscle to grow, connective tissue to stretch or a whole bunch of nerve s*** that may not even be naturally repairable and people expect a laying of hands to insta-fix stuff that obviously takes your body time to do.

You gotta go to a physio and fix the problem, not just stick your head in the sand and hope it fixes itself while you work on ways to reduce pain. This is the kind of thing where old f***wits at jobs say "oh yeah, pick up boxes properly cause I f***ed my back and it still hurts on cold days" or something similar. They never got the problem fixed, seeing a physio and actually working on the cause of the pain could of stopped that from being something they just live with...

The reason I'm interested in chiro this time is that it's very obvious that my spine/hip is now out of allignment from extremely tight lower back muscles which clenched up after the accident. The massage helped straighten me out quite a lot but looking in the mirror I'm still not straight. I expect more physio and hot tubbing will help but I figured that if ever there was a job for a chiro, this was it, and could set the spine nice and straight again once the physio and massage had allowed the muscles to relax...

I figured that if ever there was a job for a chiro, this was it

That is what they would have you believe, but there are already trained professionals doing physiotherapy.

The only things a chiro can do right for you are some basic ideas they stole from physio - and they have not even been certified in these techniques so they might not get it right.

yeah, i a broke my collar bone and my back started hurting. i thought chiros where all bs.. but went down and he showed me a vertabra had twisted... he put it back in and the relief was instant. couldnt belive i didnt go straight away.

When I broke my collarbone the physio also put my back back in place, omg it made a massive difference.
I've been a fair bit uncomfortable lately, thinking on just getting a physio to check my back out again and see if it helps. My experience is it usually does though.

Never been to an actual chiro though, and most MDs have about the same opinion of them as acupuncturists and chinese medicine specialists.

Chiropractors are charlatans right up there with Pyschics and Homeopaths.
Remedial Massage Colour Massages Aromatherapy massages = all does not cure anything.
Everyone feels better after a massage. Thats the only benefit.

Want to help yourself ?
Make an appointment to see an Orthopedic Surgeon. (prolly a 2 month wait)
Thats what Sportspersons do.

faceman, only two month wait if you don't ring around..

But you need a referal to see one though. I rang up two days ago and i'm seeing one on the 28th.

Physios are great!!

When i did my lower back(disc protrusion l4/l5) after the first initial treatment I was already feeling less pressure on my lower back and my sciatica was nowhere as painful.


free plug for sean mcollough @ maximise physiotherapy, on kessells road macgregor at club bjs.

Cranial Sacral ftw

I have some snake oil that can cure that pain right up.

Seriously go to a physio.

I dislocated my neck as a baby, chiro fixed it.

Seriously go to a physio.

I went to one recently. Never again as long as I live.

last edited by whoop at 20:08:05 17/May/09

Chiros are a waste of time.

I'm only really interested in opinions from people who have actually been to a chiro, and so far all of them are positive? I've read the websites on some local chiros and some of the degrees/courses they do are 6 years and 2000 hours of practical training. I don't think they're charletans but I don't expect them to be miracle workers either. They're another tool in the range of treatment options and it would be stupid to write off anything without having tried it.

Physios are great, but only if they are great physios (like anything). The only excellent one I've been to has since moved to Adelaide, and the others all ranged from crap to average. A mate of mine who actually is a physio recommended me the aforementioned one and has recommended another who is supposed to be the bee's knees of all physios but apparently his rates start at $150. I've forgotten his name but I'll get it for future QGL reference.

Trog I'm hesitant to follow your recommendation only because I've found that female physios lack the physical strength required for deep tissue/re-allignment manipulation.

I'll probably just stick to remedial/sports/deep tissue massage as it's half the price of physio and all I really need for this injury. I'm scoping out "back on trac" sports rehab at toowong - looks promising.

last edited by Le Cock at 20:28:33 17/May/09

I went to a chiropractor in highschool after sustaining a heavy knee injury playing rugby. 6 weeks later, he did nothing for the pain, I went to a physio once and she sorted it out.

Yep.

Used to go to a chiro on a weekly basis, physio ended that.

Could have just been a s*** chiro, but has put me off for life.

Why would you go to a chiro for a knee injury?

I guess it all comes down to the type of injury/discomfort as to what method of treatment will work best, as well as the skill of the practitioner. I figured a lower back injury would be what chiro's specialise in so was hoping to hear opinions on chiros+lower back re-allignments.

Note: I only intended to use a chiro AFTER the muscles were already treated through massage/physio.

last edited by Le Cock at 20:27:13 17/May/09

There were massage studios in Sydney that were charging happy ending massages to private insurance.

i'm not sure what a chiro would do for knee pain

you see a chiro for back pain, neck pain, headaches, stuff to do with the spine

in my experience chiro is effective against these things. of course it won't be in all cases, but no one treatment will be

"In Australia Chiropractors must complete a five-year university degree and a further 2,000 hours of supervised clinical training. They specialise in spine care. Chiropractic is the second largest health care profession in the world and continues to grow. A State Chiropractic Registration Board oversees the profession and registration is compulsory."

I have seen the same chiro for years on and off
its kind of my own fault, I'm tall and it gives me problems just day to day, but i exacerbate the situation by not exercising enough and sitting in front of a computer 40+hrs a week

I get instant relief and it feels good, I go for a few months at a time - starts off once per week and then once per fortnight and then once a month
generally after I start going once a month i'm feeling great I stop booking my appointments .. then I go back to square one

+1 for chiro

this is my guy ->

http://www.andrewvincentchiropractic.com.au/chiropractors.html

^ Wouldn't you rather fix the problem? instead of paying exorbitant amounts of money for a quick fix?
Or is that what you mean by not exercising enough?

They aren't as big a scam as kinesiologists, my god is that a joke and a half.

I go to a Chiro and I think he is great. He has been away and I had a fill in person who I found crap.

Michael Troy in Kenmore.

Trog I'm hesitant to follow your recommendation only because I've found that female physios lack the physical strength required for deep tissue/re-allignment manipulation.

Yeh if you've still been working out heaps then you might struggle.. They're plenty hardcore enough for me :(

I used to go to a chiro every 6 weeks from when I was 19 till I was 43. Motorcycle accident damaged my neck and back. I found if you get a good chiro they're great, better than any physiotherapist I've ever been to.

I haven't gone since 2004 cause the discs collapsed in my neck and back in 2004 and now I have titanium artificial disks and I feel great, thanks to my Neurosurgeon. Besides that when my disc in my neck collapsed the two vertebrae crunched down together and severed the nerve to my left arm. I was paralysed in my left arm for nearly two years till the nerve grew back. It never did regrow to the muscle over my left shoulder blade thus it has faded to just about nothing. Can't lift anything above about 5kg's with my left arm. Least I can walk, talk, turn around and still lift a beer or 5.

They're plenty hardcore enough for me :(

seriously...
after I broke my knee and the muscle started to grow back, all the tendons or ligaments or whatever it was were really tight. So the physio would stretch them out whenever I was in which basically entailed pressing hard into the muscles around my knee to get up against them, then pushing or dragging along them. (over and over till hed had enough) I swear, that hurt as much as when I broke it in the first place. But it beats having them real tight and your knee bending all weird cause the connective tissue is too tight so whatever :P

qmass, don't know how that feels. But i know the pain when I have to get the piriformis muscle worked on..Damn that hurts, my body starts twisting because of the pain and i almost scream like a bitch.


ps. for the uneducated, piriformis muscle is the one in the arse cheek that becomes tight and can make sciatica nerve play up.

I come from a long line of medico's (ps im not one) and I was a card-carrying, died in the wool chiro hater.
Mrs Hardware had some trouble with her back. Went to a chiro, hopeless. Waves his magic clicky device around and pretends to do something. Utter BS.
Then she went to a physio. Actually saw a few. Hopeless too, did nothing.
Then she went to Alan Brown at Windsor. Even me with my 'this clown won't do anything' pre-concieved idea i could see plainly that he was actually making biiig improvements.

So yeah, thats my story. Just like any group of 'professionals', you get your hopeless ones and you get your champs. Just don't go to one and think they're all like that is all i can say.

^ Wouldn't you rather fix the problem? instead of paying exorbitant amounts of money for a quick fix?

I'm tall (6'8"), it's just a part of life and I do what I can but it's nothing something that can be "fixed" as such

exercising more would help but i'd still have to go to the chiro

I have major back issues, came very close to slipping a disk in my lower lumbar. I still have issues and need to monitor and manage it constantly to ensure it heals properly and doesn't relapse.

Because of this I did a lot of research into it and my conclusion is that I will never ever ever ever go to a Chiropractor, they are about skeletal manipulation with not much consideration to the muscles and the rest of the body. I see an osteopath and it’s the best thing I’ve ever done, they are concerned with both the muscular therapy and skeletal manipulation, sort of an overall view on the whole spine, they won’t do skeletal manipulation unless they have to became something is out of place.

My back was pretty bad so I saw an osteopath once a week for about 3 months, he only performed skeletal manipulation once, then worked with me to ensure I fixed everything else to keep the spine aligned and healthy, that was a year and a half ago and I’ve not had to go back for regular skeletal manipulation or anything of the sort because he actually helped me fix the cause of the issue.

The most important thing is to recognise that how your living your life now is causing undue stress on your spine, "putting it out" during some activity is the release of the built up stress. You need to buy a good back guide book to learn all about it and change your posture, etc to improve the health of your spine and prevent issues.

Considering you can just "set up" a chiropracter business with no qualifications, are you sure you really want to go see someone like that?

May as well go ask the local bum at the bus stop to give you a massage, he's as qualified as your "professional" chiro.

Chiro/Acupuncture/Homeopath Med/etc.
It's all a shamrock sham of s***!

yeah thats not right mephz. all the chiros ive seen have at least one medical degree and my GP also does acupuncture.

last edited by MrHardware at 21:58:23 17/May/09

I have had back issues for years.

I see a physio, chiro and acupuncture.

I was always against Chiro's, but my physio actually reccomended I visit one specifically for one issue he identified which related to spine alignment.

I've only been 3 times, and all 3 times it was on the suggestion of my physio and all 3 times the chiro did all sorts of crazy s*** to my back that didn't seem to help me or hurt me (it hurt at the time, but so does physio!) but each time I went back to my physio he was happy and said that whatever it was he wanted done had been done.

I've been seeing my physio for a decade and he now lives across the road from me, so he is pretty helpful. not sure how many of them actually suggest chiro though!

Heyas

Well like Tequila im pretty tall (6'10") and periodically have suffered back pain of various kinds

I go to this guy at Samford and frankly he ROCKS!
He does this Japanese Physio (Satai?) and Chinese Acupuncture and i couldnt recommend him more highly.

Ive been to various Chiros over the years and they have all been crap. My mum has been visiting Chiros and swears by each new one she finds but invariably ends up trying to find a new one as the old one doesnt fix it anymore...

First visit to this guy at Samford i was in absolute agony - couldnt move, couldnt sleep, couldnt walk...huge pain medication etc
I get there and he tells me my lower back is out (well duh :P), and my hips are 2" out of alignment!

No lies, 2 minutes later im up and about and happy! Turns out i have tight hamstrings, they in turn pull my hips out... bingo, back pain! So the fix is every day i have to do hammy stretches and i havent had a reoccurence.

Ive had frozen shoulder fixed by him, ive had all my friends go there and they now swear by him, my wife has been there and fixed her knee...

And it isnt a "keep coming back forever scenario", he just tells you that it will take a visit or 4 and thats it - he doesnt keep u coming back needlessly.

Plus the best part... when u go its "hands on" for the full 60 minutes, none of this physio practice s*** where he puts u on the machine and comes back every 20 to ask how u are going... :P

Couldnt recommend him more highly!

:)

Yeh if you've still been working out heaps then you might struggle.. They're plenty hardcore enough for me :(

Nah, more like my layer of padding :)

Samford's too far unfortunately, but good story Aga.

The great physio I used to have actually combined physio/osteo/accupunc/electro accupunc, and maybe even some chiro, so that was why he was so effective.

Local chiros i'm scoping out are: http://www.toowongchiropractic.com.au/
http://www.doylechiro.com.au/

Although I'd like to try this guy out, "massager therapist to teh STARS!" http://www.majestichealthmassage.com.au/ lol

You do know about the high risk of a Stroke from these kooks ?

Dont you ?

yes plus i think a lot of them were behind 9/11

There are certainly a few that do exactly as above, a couple of clicks, 5 minutes later your out $60 and need to come back next week. Stay away from them - personally i've been to both chiro's and osteopaths, definitely feel like you get a lot more from an osteopath. They start with muscles and then make a few adjustments, but its a nice balance.

I have a story you might wanna read...

I used to go to a chiro here on the Gold Coast, always fixed the problem and only see him once every 5 years on average. Was down in Melbourne a while back and went for such a long walk I ended up hurting my back somehow because of the way I ended up walking. Anyway, I went to a chiro down in Melb and seriously, he walked into the room, ran two fingers down my spine in random lots, made a few clicks and told me to come back next week after charging me $55.

I moved back to the Gold Coast the next week, still in pain and unable to walk properly, and I went to my old chiro ... there, the usual treatment - heated towel over your back, then heated vibrating massage machine over your entire back, followed by massage, THEN the chiro comes in, asks you the problem, checks over what you think it is, makes a few corrections, sends you on your way.

I was able to walk just fine the next day and didn't go see him for another 5 years when I did something else.


In short: a lot of chiros scam people, but from experience I'd say the good ones do actually work.

last edited by Zy at 00:06:20 18/May/09

you must be about 90 years old!!

WHenever you see these three words " alternative medical approach "
That means you are about to pay a lot of money for unproven techniques.

Just donate the money to charity or your local hospital, it'll be better spent.

I work in orthopedic trauma/surgery, my *opinion* based on some knowledge/experience from the science side is that Chiropractors are on the same level as faith healers.

They don't require any previous study or degree to setup.
Why would you let one near your spine shocks me, these people don't conduct conclusive testing such as x-rays/CT's to eliminate physical possibilities first, but they're quick to start manipulating it and take your money...

If they do the testing, perhaps they're worth a little more weight, but I still wouldn't let anyone near my spine with a 40ft pole who wasn't also an orthopedic reg or consultant.

Everyone has free will I guess

last edited by Mephz at 09:39:30 18/May/09

There're a lot of mixed opinions in this thread about chiros - just goes to show that you can't trust people's opinions, because you don't know who's is more informed and who you can and can't trust. Studies show that you've most likely got an opinion already (it is rare to not have an opinion about something as soon as it enters your mind), and you're more likely to accept the opinions that match yours, but reject the ones that don't confirm your opinion.

Take this example: I'm a person who wants to find out about my future, so I become interested in seeing a psychic. I post a thread on a forum about seeing psychics, saying that a close family member regularly goes to one and thinks it's amazing, but at the same time I'm cautious because I don't want to get gyp'ed. The pattern of reply would be something similar to this thread (but hopefully a lot more skeptics:) - while a lot of people will state the obvious, about how it's a scam and blah blah blah, there'll be a few people who have gone and found them to be very accurate and informative. "They new I have had to marriages and I have 2 kids!" (I have heard someone actually say this before.) So how do I decide whether or not I should see a psychic?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you need to avoid people's opinions and even their anecdotal reports, because regardless of whether you're talking about a chiro, psychic, medical doctor, dentist, palm reader, you're going to find people who have had successful and fail experiences. You need to base your decision on the scientific evidence.

There is no scientific evidence that psychics have a special ability, there is no scientific evidence that the lines in your palms predict your future, and there's no scientific evidence to support chiropractic as being a true medical therapy. It is an alternative medicine. I am not skeptical of the positive outcomes that people have reported here, but my bet is that some chiros perform derivatives of true physio or medical practice, that by chance fix the problems.

Faceman sums it up nicely (although a bit of boy-who-cried-wolf syndrome:) :

WHenever you see these three words " alternative medical approach "
That means you are about to pay a lot of money for unproven techniques.

Keep in mind also, they are not "unproven techniques" for lack of trying to prove validity.

Why would you go to a chiro for a knee injury?

Well, you know, the old "the knee bones connected to the, dick bone" etc. My GP sent me to the chiro, I was sceptical at first, but physios are where its at.

You can get degrees in chiropractic science. Some have dual qualifications physio and chiro...


Just because the AMA doesn't like it doesn't mean anything.
The AMA doesn't like self testing INR patients, apparently its "not safe" even tho the test cases for self testing or pharmacy test show better outcomes for patients.

Well I went to the physio but he didn't do much, just showed me some stretches. I guess he wants to wait until it's loosened up some more. The only thing he really did was 1 quick manipulation where he put me on my side and twisted my body really suddenly. Instant relief and was walking much straighter. Seemed like more of a chiropractic technique which is ironic :)

So was this caused by your abs being too weak to compensate for the strain on your lower back?

Well I certainly don't have epic core strength or abs but I don't think that was the issue here - it was more a combination of a few things at the same time:

1) Working out back muscles at gym the night before so they were fatigued
2) Just getting out of bed so my muscles were still asleep and I was very groggy
3) Piss-poor lifting technique - was half asleep and not paying attention and kind of bent over and expected just to heave it up as i thought it was light
4) didn't expect the box to be as heavy as it was (about 25kg)

=> rooted back.

/Thread deraiment.
While we're at it, I've been battling knees problems for years can anyone please recommend me a good Physio? I've seen one before and it didn't really do much for me.

Either post it in this thread or PM please, much appreciated :)

Opec, I'd recommend UQ physio as a starting place - about $20 for an hour session, but don't expect to get a full hour of treatment. The reason I still recommend it is because it's a teaching clinic, so you get good students treating you, but more importantly, you get their expert supervisors teaching them using your body. So, for example, the teacher will make sure they have diagnosed the problem correctly and go through all the different possible explanations, and then recommend the different methods of treatment and explain why which methods are good and bad. The teaching goes on right in front of you so you can hear everything they are saying.

Billy, this one?

http://www.uqsportsandrehab.com.au/physio.htm

Also I've heard good things about these guys

http://www.allsportsphysio.com.au/

I work in the city and live on the north side so the ones at Indro/Toowong aren't so good for me to get to, but I'm willing to try them if they're good.

Opec,

A mate of mine who is a physio himself but only treats in hospital recommended Adam or Michael at Kelvin Grove optima sports medicine.

ok thanks Le Cock & Billy

I go to the chiropracter once every 4-6 weeks.

Problem i initially went was a constantly cracking neck due to a car accident (T-Boned into my door), and headaches... Headaches have gone completely and neck cracking still happens but no where near as much.

She also really helps with other odd problems. I had a sprained ankle which she prodded at and seemed to help, also when i have an appointment which I happen to be sick at (particularly head colds) she seems to be able to clear sinus' and remove headaches..

Everyone will treat you better once you have a CT scan or better still an MRI.
I'll take a guess an MRI would be close to $1000 ?
Costly but if you can afford it then it might be an investment for your future.
Nobody wants to wake up with a sore back for the rest of their lives.

MRI's for research purposes cost $600 per person... so if they add a bit on top of that for profit it should be less than $1000. But then you need someone to read the scans, which is going to be costly too.

Opec, no, that is not the one - that will be a more professional clinic targetting athletes and will no doubt cost a lot more. HEre is the one I was refering to: http://www.shrs.uq.edu.au/physio/clinics_and_services/musculoskeletal_sports_injury.html

It's right next to the main bus stop loop.

Le Cock I just tried to ring the one in Kelvin Grove but it went to message bank so I left the message.... according to the recorded message they should be open today so I don't know what's going on there?

Having a look at it the one in Lutwyche is closer to my house, do have any recommendation on who I should see there Le Cock ? Or should I just wait to hear back from Kelvin Grove clicnic?

Edit: NW Just heard back from the Kelvin Grove one :)

Ok thanks Billy, I personally don't mind paying as long as it actually helps me.

last edited by Opec at 14:28:22 18/May/09

^ Let me know how the one at lutwyche goes, i live near there also, and my knees/ankles/calves are starting to s*** me off.

Looks a little expensive though...but I guess you get what you pay for.

edit: never mind then :)

my ex was into sports alot and she did her back.. she went to a physio and a chiro.. the chiro was talking about what he was trying to do about some s*** or another... 10 sessions later there was no improvment.. she went back to the physio and told him what was happening at the chiro.. he snapped her back into alignment in 1 session.. proplem solved

dont bother with a chiro.. just go to a good sports physio

ive been to the same chiro for years, always seems to crack my back and neck back into place :) i need to go to see him in the next week or so, get my back all re-alligned.

Chiro's are heaps better than physio for neck/back/spine realignment. physio's are more for sore shoulders/ knees/ muscle problems.

i went to a sport physio, at the clemjones swimming pool, for my shoulder, that had the rotator cuffs rubbing bone on bone and the physio helped that alot, with muscle stretches and weight lifting exercises. the chiro just cracks u back into position.

Looks a little expensive though...but I guess you get what you pay for.

i was getting $30 bux back a session from my osteopath through private health insurance;

to the people who are saying anyone can set up a chiropractic clinic without a degree or qualifications... wat.

your chiropractor did a 5 year degree and has probably treated thousands of people without incident

Your body is not lego, you cannot "snap" your spine or joints back into "alignment", like 'curing' arthritis through chriopractors, it is anatomically illogical at best.

You can help your posture to alleviate pressure for spinal problems for example sure; perhaps your chrio may help you with that but this is something physio or yourself can reproduce, but these certainly aren't solving any potential underlying problems or causes such as disc prolapse or compression only alleviating the symptoms; which may require a surgical decompression such as a laminectomy for example.

I'd spend the money on getting properly examined instead, you only get one body, your problem could very well be more serious than you think.
If you've exhausted conventional medicine, do what you will I suppose, I personally still would not let a chiropractor near me with a yard stick.

last edited by Mephz at 22:56:54 18/May/09

Stez,

http://www.toowongchiropractic.com.au/ is where I went, based on the reccomendation of my physio.

your chiropractor did a 5 year degree and has probably treated thousands of people without incident

Palm readers have probably read thousands of palms without incident...

not sure that there's much innate risk to palmistry, bruised hands maybe

Billy.

If people go to chiros and feel better for the experience, and all a "doctor" can offer is "chiros are rubish".

I know which one is treating the patient.

Well one of them has a patient, one has a customer.

to the people who are saying anyone can set up a chiropractic clinic without a degree or qualifications... wat.

You can get qualifications in something that isn't real :/

like theology?
OH SNAP

Thanks Spidz, that was one of 2 on my local list to scope out. However now osteopathy is sounding pretty good too.

I have another physio session tomorrow and if he doesn't get stuck in with some hardcore hands on work this time then I'll try something else.

If people go to chiros and feel better for the experience, and all a "doctor" can offer is "chiros are rubish".

I know which one is treating the patient.

I don't think doctors are concerned with whether or not chiros are rubbish - they're worried they're going to do actual, real, lasting physical damage to someone. At least, I'm pretty sure that's what they think, based on the only conversation I've ever had with a doctor. I'll see if I can page her into coming in and offering a real medical opinion instead of just half-remembered comments

Theology is real. Religions are real, the beliefs are real.
What they believe in might not be, but that's not overly important

A mate of mine is a doctor and his opinion was that personally he only believes in scientifically proven things, and sees a visit to the chiro as something you do when you're at your wits end and nothing else has worked. Obviously it's still just a personal opinion, perhaps even more biased than average because he's a western doctor.

I don't have a problem in believing in 'alternative' medicine. Many things are only alternative in the western world but have been in practice for thousands of years in the East. As already stated, I just see all the various options as different tools available on the path of good health. The best practitioners I've ever experienced were those that combined western with eastern techniques.

Theology is real. Religions are real, the beliefs are real.
What they believe in might not be, but that's not overly important

ahah

what

Chiro is an alternative medicine, not necessarily a scientific approach (like physio). I haven't heard many great things about chiros either. Sub-laxations is the common rip-off scheme that you see the bastards peddling in shopping malls.

What don't you get trog ?

The muslim faith is real. There are muslims. And their beliefs are real ie. they believe whatever they believe... It doesn't matter if they are wrong, misguided or right. You can still study that faith. Its history, politics, anthropology and its ethics.

What don't you get trog ?

The muslim faith is real. There are muslims. And their beliefs are real ie. they believe whatever they believe... It doesn't matter if they are wrong, misguided or right. You can still study that faith. Its history, politics, anthropology and its ethics.

I don't get why you'd tried to use religion to bolster an argument about the efficacy of the chiropractic arts, where it quite clearly 100% unbelievably amazingly hugely significantly matters if the person working on your spinal column is wrong or misguided

I don't have a problem in believing in 'alternative' medicine. Many things are only alternative in the western world but have been in practice for thousands of years in the East. As already stated, I just see all the various options as different tools available on the path of good health. The best practitioners I've ever experienced were those that combined western with eastern techniques.

Le Cock, just because it's been around for years doesn't mean it does anything:/ Do you really think that they had the same (or better) level of knowledge about physiology, diet etc 2000 years ago? Also, see below...

Billy.

If people go to chiros and feel better for the experience, and all a "doctor" can offer is "chiros are rubish".

I know which one is treating the patient.

Have you heard of the placebo effect? This is a timely conversation because in the recent podcast of the skeptics guide to the universe they discuss a court case in the UK where a skeptic is being sued for calling chiropractic "bogus". Specifically, he was saying that their claims that they can heal or sorts of diseases are utter BS.

More relevant to Obes post, they discuss a very well conducted study that tests classical acupuncture combined with general therapy, against pricking people with toothpicks combined with general therapy, and the control condition was just general therapy. There was no difference between pricking people with toothpicks and acupuncture, LOL. Both groups had better outcomes than therapy alone, meaning the only effect in acupuncture is placebo.

Le Cock, just because it's been around for years doesn't mean it does anything:/

But it also doesn't mean it DOESN'T do anything. In fact the chances are that it DOES do something because if it didn't, so many people wouldn't have relied on it for so long.

Just because something hasn't been studied/proven by western science in the 20th/21st century doesn't mean it doesn't work. There's s***loads of compounds and enzymes being proven every day to have health benefits that occur naturally in specific foods that were used medicinally for thousands of years beforehand.

What if something had been used for 4000 years to treat an ailment but hadn't been scientifically proven, would you say "that doesn't work because it hasn't been proven in the last 50 years"? What if next week western scientific studies come out showing that "the compound contains enzymes XYZ which specifically treat the ailment for these reasons." Would you then do a turn around and say "this works for this ailment" ?

I would not write off the anecdotal evidence of millions of people over 2000 years.

I spend a s***load of time researching extracts from specific compounds and every 'cutting edge' health product released these days (not man-made drugs) has a history of use for hundreds or thousands of years before western science was even aware of it or had the tools to be able to study how it interacts in the body. In fact it is a pre-requisite in Australia that new ingredients (plant extracts etc) have a documented history of use in other cultures before they're allowed to be used here.

It comes down to this:

Guilty until proven innocent

vs

Let's explore all the options and keep an open mind.


I'm not against western medicine - not at all. I just think that there's a lot more out there than the extremely short era of western medicine is aware of or can explain.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

But it also doesn't mean it DOESN'T do anything. In fact the chances are that it DOES do something because if it didn't, so many people wouldn't have relied on it for so long.

Apply that line of thought to religion and see how far it takes you :)

Have you heard of the placebo effect?

Yes I have.
And I have seen the studies where a placebo is sometimes as effective as some new chemical.

I am aware of it, and don't see it being a bad treatment.
If it works... who cares why.

Apply that line of thought to religion and see how far it takes you :)

You mean as a form of government ?
They outlawed killing people, and theft. Introduced the first health care ...
Gave people good common sense ideas for how to live your life. Wash regularly, don't mess around with other people spouses, avoid certain food because they caused health issues.

last edited by Obes at 11:17:34 19/May/09

I belive most if not all 'religions' have been misinterperated and warped by humans over time however I am extremely open minded towards spirituality. There is no doubt that many people would have been comforted in bad times through their faith in their religion - and that is real. It then becomes a question of what 'real' means to you.

If you require a giant hand in the sky throwing lightning bolts at you, or if feeling comforted in a church after losing a loved one is enough. If you medically studied the stress levels and other hormones and chemicals in someone's body and brain during tragedy and then again after visiting their church and there was a huge difference showing less stress and stabalized neuro-chemical release, would that make religion 'real' to you?

Studies show that you've most likely got an opinion already (it is rare to not have an opinion about something as soon as it enters your mind), and you're more likely to accept the opinions that match yours, but reject the ones that don't confirm your opinion.

pretty much an open and shut case of this in this thread.

I agree with Obes re: placebo effect, and I have a theory on the placebo effect which I'll get shot down for but anyways;

The mind is an immensely powerful tool that 99.9999999% of humans have no idea about how to use or unlock the abilities of. Perhaps the placebo effect is a trigger that allows the mind to help heal the body. For example, when you are feeling ill or injured and someone you trust (doctor, physio, witchdoctor) tells you that his treatment will heal you, you believe it. The belief is the important part - the accepting, the knowing it to be true, and being grateful for it before it has even happened.

This is the trigger that changes the mind's focus from "im sick, im injured, it hurts, i'll never get better" to "at the end of this treatment I will feel better, my pain will be gone".

So even if the treatment was a sham as part of a study to prove it doesn't work, if the mind believes it will work, it will. If 100 patients undergo this placebo treatment and report lower pain levels, does that make it not 'real'? Is there pain less 'real'?

As Obes said - if it works, who cares why.

I don't really want to argue with you - it's best that you go try it out and see if it works for you, but, science tells us that if it does work, it's probably because of a placebo effect. Is that such a bad thing? Probably not, but I'll talk about this a bit more in a second.

But it also doesn't mean it DOESN'T do anything. In fact the chances are that it DOES do something because if it didn't, so many people wouldn't have relied on it for so long.

Although that may seem intuitive, it's quite incorrect. As trog pointed out, this falls apart when you look at religion. The mere fact that there are different ancient religions, each with millions of followers, shows quite simply that you cannot use this logic to see what is real and what isn't.

Just because something hasn't been studied/proven by western science in the 20th/21st century doesn't mean it doesn't work. There's s***loads of compounds and enzymes being proven every day to have health benefits that occur naturally in specific foods that were used medicinally for thousands of years beforehand.

Actually, there have been lots of studies about alternative methods. The fact is, there are lots of studies that have tried to show that alternative methods work, but when they are conducted in a scientific manner with proper control groups, none of them do anything.

I would not write off the anecdotal evidence of millions of people over 2000 years.

That's fine, but what you are writing off, are the many more cases where these things do NOT work.

I spend a s***load of time researching extracts from specific compounds and every 'cutting edge' health product released these days (not man-made drugs) has a history of use for hundreds or thousands of years before western science was even aware of it or had the tools to be able to study how it interacts in the body. In fact it is a pre-requisite in Australia that new ingredients (plant extracts etc) have a documented history of use in other cultures before they're allowed to be used here.

I have no doubt that there are some "new" supplements that have actually been used for thousands of years. And I'm sure that some "new" medical interventions have been known for thousands of years. But what we need to look at are the scientific facts - a lot of things like acupuncture and chiropractic HAVE been studied in great detail, and have been shown not to have an effect. That is quite different from finding a compound that has been used for centuries but hasn't yet had the scientific evidence to back it up, and ends up being useful. The studies have been done on most alternative medicines.

Let's explore all the options and keep an open mind.

I'm not against western medicine - not at all. I just think that there's a lot more out there than the extremely short era of western medicine is aware of or can explain.

I totally agree, but if you're doing this, you have to look at the scientific evidence.

Yes I have.
And I have seen the studies where a placebo is sometimes as effective as some new chemical.

Err... that IS the placebo effect.

I am aware of it, and don't see it being a bad treatment.
If it works... who cares why.

I am all for "placebo" treatments! BUT, what I'm not for, is disguising placebo treatments as "professions", and charging s***loads of money for them. That is unethical and should be illegal.

Le Cock, make sure you read the last bit I wrote about the placebo effect. But you wrote all that stuff while I was still typing out my last reply, so just quickly:

You have pretty much outlined what the placebo effect is. So it's important to say that a treatment that you are paying s***loads of money for is MORE than just the placebo effect, otherwise just get me to prod and twist your back for $10, and get the same outcome.

Studies show that you've most likely got an opinion already (it is rare to not have an opinion about something as soon as it enters your mind), and you're more likely to accept the opinions that match yours, but reject the ones that don't confirm your opinion

There are soooo many things I would like to say in response to this thread, but what's quoted above is so true, that I can't be assed. Nothing I say will change your mind if you're a chiro-lover, and no chiro-lover will be able to make me change my opinion.

BUT! A few of the reasons why I don't approve:

(1) Misleading the general public into thinking they have educational qualifications on par with medical practitioners. THEY DON'T. They're not doctors.

all the chiros ive seen have at least one medical degree

NO THEY DON'T!!

(2) A detailed knowledge of anatomy and pain physiology allows us to know that the basic principles governing chiropractic are flawed:

Your body is not lego, you cannot "snap" your spine or joints back into "alignment", like 'curing' arthritis through chriopractors, it is anatomically illogical at best

Exactly. And I'm pretty sure they don't study the underlying pathophysiology of asthma at Chiropractic school, yet the Chiropractors'Association of Australia will have you believe they can fix that too.

(3) It's not evidence based.

he showed me a vertabra had twisted... he put it back in and the relief was instant

How did he diagnose this? What's a "twisted vertebra"? How did he show you? How did he "put it back in"? It's all words, and most people don't know anything about the complicated mechanics of the vertebral column components, so they believe anything they hear.

(4)

I dislocated my neck as a baby, chiro fixed it.

No you didn't. And no he didn't.

all the chiros ive seen have at least one medical degree

I just googled "Brisbane Chriro" and looked at the first few results... I found a few people that called themselves "doctors" but they don't have a medical degree, they have a Bachelor of Chiropractic Science. This isn't a medical degree.

As with any trust-based system of repute, you'd need to check what institution issued that degree to even have any idea if it was remotely useful.

I'd be pretty surprised if there were any chiros with a proper MD from a reputable institution, but I guess anything is possible.

Pretty sure Penn & Teller did a show on Chiros, and they bundled them up with Reflexology and that sort of bulls***.

<3 Penn & Teller.

http://www.welladjustedbabies.com/blog/?p=118

Allowing our children the opportunity to independently strengthen their immune system is one of the greatest gifts we can give them. However, with all the talk regarding the potential dangers of Swine Flu, many parents may wonder what additional steps they can take to strengthen their child’s immune system. Lets discuss some strategies:

One way to build your child’s immune system is to ensure that they have their nervous system and spine regularly checked by their chiropractor.
When subluxations occur, nerve dysfunction alters communication between bodily systems, and decreases immune strength. Removing nerve interference will often be all the body requires to successfully fight an illness.

Chiropractic is a very safe and effective way of enhancing your child’s immunity. By removing accumulated nerve interference, your child’s body will have greater capacity to clear childhood illnesses, colds and flu’s (even the ‘dreaded swine flu’!) more effectively.

Chiropractors and other holistic practitioners aim to support the natural defence systems of the body.

Sigh.... Not much Science there.

I didn't see it as argument at all - just discussion!

If placebo effects weren't disguised as professions then they wouldn't work because the patient wouldn't go into the treatment believing it would work.

Bottom line is, some western medicine works, some doesn't, some ends up making you sicker from side effects and kills you, some get found out 20 years later to cause all sorts of problems. Same goes for eastern medicine no doubt. And the same goes for treatments such as chiro/accu, etc. I still think all areas have merit and it is all about finding the right treatments for the right cases and matching them up, rather than whether they have been proved yet or not. That's what the thread was about - have you been to a chiro and what particular ailment was it helpful for.

The BEST physio and doctors I've ever been to have been those who had open minds and integrated several different styles of treatment. The WORST doctors I've ever been to are the 90% who have god complexes and think that what they learned in medicine school is the be all and end all of health.

But if the patient is happier then previous doctor approved treatments ... who cares ?

Oh wait... patient focused care...

Studies show that you've most likely got an opinion already (it is rare to not have an opinion about something as soon as it enters your mind), and you're more likely to accept the opinions that match yours, but reject the ones that don't confirm your opinion

There has been studies on studies with the result becoming known as the Rosenthal Effect. They show it is impossible to create an objective study because the opinions of the testers skew the outcomes. You say everyone has an opinion (including scientists peforming studies ie. rosenthal effect) so where does that leave the validity of studies?

Also, I find it interesting that you're more willing to BELIEVE in the extensive untapped (and 'unproven'?) powers of the human mind over the the chiropractic profession.

These are discussion points only, not having a go at all.

last edited by Le Cock at 12:36:43 19/May/09

Also, I find it interesting that you're more willing to BELIEVE in the extensive untapped (and 'unproven'?) powers of the human mind over the the chiropractic profession.

Do you mean the placebo effect? This has been proven time and time again...

The BEST physio and doctors I've ever been to have been those who had open minds and integrated several different styles of treatment. The WORST doctors I've ever been to are the 90% who have god complexes and think that what they learned in medicine school is the be all and end all of health.

What's more depressing and important when thinking about whether to go see an alternative practitioner, is that you get better just from doing nothing ~70% (higher?) of the time.

What's more depressing and important when thinking about whether to go see an alternative practitioner, is that you get better just from doing nothing ~70% (higher?) of the time.

Why use the word alternative ? ... 70% of the time you go to see a GP it'll get better all by itself.

Thus going to a doctor, witch doctor, magician ... 70% of the time doesn't matter.
And there would a percentage out of the remaining 30% where even going to seek treatment is non-productive (you may as well start ticking off the bucket list instead).

70% of the time you go to see a GP it'll get better all by itself

This is seriously f***ing bad advice! If something funky is going on PLEASE go and see a doctor, even if it doesn't seem that bad.

I had that attitude when things started going a litle bit weird. If my wife hadn't bludgeoned me into going to the doctor when I got some numbness in my leg I might have ignored the early M.S. signs - minor attacks often do get better over time, especially with RR MS.

I would not have gotten onto treatment as fast as I did, and MS is a condition where early treatment is super important to long term outcomes. So are most serious conditions.

Sorry, Obes and Hogfather both summed up the point htat I failed to make in my post. Obes, yes I meant to say alternative practitioner or medical doctor. What you need to be careful about is that you're not going to be damaged more, you're not going to miss the 30% when there needs to be something done (like Hog pointed out), and to a lesser extent, you're not wasting your money.

Well as long as you understand that chiropractics, accupuncture, and reflexology are in the same category. They all pretend some part of your body can be used as a voodoo doll to affect other parts of your body. There is no scientific basis for this. You can reason your way into wasting as much money on these as you like, I guess.

Drugs do have a scientific basis, whether they work, don't work, or cause problems - at least with science this can improve. You can't improve some arbitrary ritual that does not even attempt to 'fit in' with reality or address any real physical issues.

You never see anyone make a 'breakthrough' or new discovery in chiropractics research. How it was asserted one day over 100 years ago (By a man who sold 'magnetic' healing), is how it is. Like a religion. The guy even tried to have it declared a religion to prevent legal trouble from the American Medical Association by using a consititutional protection.
Read all about it!

I had reflexology done once when i had really sore feet just to see what it was like.. IT HURT!!... But.. I think it was when they did something to BOTH of my big toes i got a weird tingling in my head. I looked at the 'guide' on the wall which shows you which point corresponds to which part of your body, turns out the place they were 'working on' which made my head tingle was the brain line. It was a bit eery. Don't think it really would have done anything else but make my feet feel FANTASTIC for days to come.

It was like walking on clouds.

thermite, referred pain is absolute medical fact. If you've got hurting knees, maybe it's not a problem with your knees, it's probably a problem with your back.
Trust me, like i stated, once upon a time i was an absolute nay-sayer.

It was like walking on clouds.

sounds like nerve damage

that some dissenters (in this case "chiro-lovers") may simply be closed-minded goes without saying, but it doesn't help.

if I recall correctly, the penn and teller episode admitted that chiropractic does have some merit when it comes to back pain and things like that, but took a very dim view of chiropractors that claim its effectiveness against all kinds of disease

certainly the chiropractors I've been to feel that the spinal adjustment has good flow-on effects for the nervous system, but they don't claim to cure aids

never been to chiro - been to physio plenty for ankle, back and glute related issues, fantastic. couldn't help the ankle (turned out i'd broken off bits of bone and they were restricting a tendon, xray didn't pick it up so everyone assumed it was just a strain til i got a ct/ultrasound) but have always done wonders with the back (recurring problem stemming from a L4 (2nd lowest vertabrae?) 'slip' i had playing cricket) and worked a treat when recuperating from a glute tear as well. chiro i've heard a couple of good things but a lot of 'didn't do anything' from people.

however, I had acupuncture for the first time when i went in for the ankle, cos of the strained tendon i wasn't walking properly and that was putting more strain on my calf etc, so the physio did the acupuncture on my calf muscle - worked a f***ing treat! slightly disconcerting to begin with, but it wasn't really painful and really free'd up the muscle a lot, and a lot quicker than if he had done the usual massage work up, was fantastic, would do again!

tl;dr - physio thumbs up, acupuncture thumbs up, chiro no experience but have heard a few good opinions but generally 'didn't notice a difference' comments.

Trog family,

I was a non chiro believer, but WENT THERE ON THE ADVICE OF A PHYSIOTHERAPIST.

I've been seeing that same physio for a decade and still see him now, only twice has he sent me to the chiro and both times the relief was instant.

As for your doctor argument, my Grade 11 History teacher was called Dr. Volep and Peter Beattie is Dr. Beattie. You don't need a medical degree to be called Dr. Name.

Today I went to see Adam @ Optima Physio at Kelvin Grove, and he was great, really helpful advice and treatment, felt a lot better even from just one session.

Thanks Le Cock :)

Great!

As for me, I took a chance on a new random physio who did zero in two sessions! :( The only reasoning I can come up with is that it's an injury within the spine/discs etc and not muscular, so not much to be done.

And I didn't go to a chiro either. Just getting better on its own.

are Optima the guys who do a bunch of stuff for the Broncos and other QLD sport teams? if so, my old man has been going there for years for a knee that is all kinds of f***ed up and he swears by them.

Nah that's allsports physio red hill. They have a chain.

Optima are more like sports medical centres with sports docs, physio, podiatry, physical performance testing etc.

It all depends on the individual physio though - I've been to several all sports physios and some were awesome some were average.

oh, ok.

well one indirect recommendation for http://www.allsportsphysio.com.au/ @ Red Hill from me then :D

As for your doctor argument, my Grade 11 History teacher was called Dr. Volep and Peter Beattie is Dr. Beattie. You don't need a medical degree to be called Dr. Name.

strawman; the point is you can't be called 'doctor' if you just have a Bachelor in Chiropracy. That is misleading and confusing to people that hear the title 'doctor' and believe it means 'medical doctor'.

Anyway, I'm obviously against the title 'doctor' for use in non-medical things for that reason.

As for your doctor argument, my Grade 11 History teacher was called Dr. Volep and Peter Beattie is Dr. Beattie. You don't need a medical degree to be called Dr. Name.

strawman; the point is you can't be called 'doctor' if you just have a Bachelor in Chiropracy. That is misleading and confusing to people that hear the title 'doctor' and believe it means 'medical doctor'.

Anyway, I'm obviously against the title 'doctor' for use in non-medical things for that reason.

I think you'll find most people with a phd are against 'doctor' being used for someone without a phd (ie medical 'doctors') :P

I think you'll find most people with a phd are against 'doctor' being used for someone without a phd (ie medical 'doctors') :P

I'm thinking of ONE person who will demand it when his phd is official (who definitely doesn't need any more ego stroking)

I will too ;)

Anyway, I'm obviously against the title 'doctor' for use in non-medical things for that reason.

The term doctor comes from Latin and it means "teacher". People with a B.MD are given the term 'doctor' as an honourary title due to the level and level of study they are required to do to get to that point.

I think you'll find most people with a phd are against 'doctor' being used for someone without a phd (ie medical 'doctors') :P

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Most people with PhDs respect and value the amount of research and dedication one has to do to become a qualified medical doctor. However, they probably find that blatant ignorance like (to paraphrase trog) "I'm opposed to stuff I don't understand" is pretty distasteful and shameful.

I'd align it to the general anti-intellectualism that is heavily ingrained into the Australian culture.

I will too ;)

I don't even like being called Mr. I'm not sure I'd really care for being called Dr.

I don't even like being called Mr. I'm not sure I'd really care for being called Dr.

I hate having a title in front of my name, but being called dr sparrow would rock! I'm aware the novelty would wear off eventually though.

spidz, the mere fact that someone in this thread said something like "all the chiros I have been to had medical degrees" is a good enough reason for them to NOT be allowed to have "Dr" in front of their names.

Of course Chiros are medical, that's why private health insurance covers your visits to them. They're classified as an alternative therapy/medicine!

Yeah thats part of the problem with Private Health Cover.
Most of the premiums are wasted on Questionable Health Services.

So it turns out they can call themselves Doctors, at least according to the Chiro board's own guidelines, which states:

The use of any title or designation is an effective method of imparting information. It immediately allows an audience to identify the common roles or activities and characteristics about that title. Titles may be attributed to an individual through a variety of mechanisms, some earned through training or education (for example, professional credentials) and others as a result of a position held (for example, a job title such as case manager).
The title “Doctor”/“Dr” must only be used in a manner which clearly associates its use with the practice of chiropractic (eg. Dr J Smith – Chiropractor).

I have emailed for more clarification on this to see if its sanctioned by the Qld Health Practitioners Registration Board as well.

SWINE FLU PREVENTION Chiro Style
http://www.planetc1.com/cgi-bin/n/v.cgi?c=1&id=1240864592

How can I protect myself from swine flu? Build your immune system! Get adjusted!
Studies show that being adjusted twice a week can increase your immune system function by up to 400%. Limit the amount of sugar in your diet! Sugar depresses the immune system. Foods to avoid would be the added sugar to your coffee, soda, sweetened drinks, candy, alcohol and white flour products. Drink more water! Wash your hands frequently.

Use natural disinfectants like essential oils that fight viruses (eucalyptus lemon, lavender, tea tree oil are the most popular).
To disinfect a room from the flu virus, you should buy a new plant sprayer, use warm but not boiling water inside the bottle, add 4+ drops of a oil listed above (your choice) per one cup of water, shake before each use and spray on hard surfaces throughout your house and use a clean rag to wipe down the surface.
You can also disinfectant a room by spraying the mixture into the air.

here is my old man's story... no ninjas or dragons for those with attention deficit...

my old man had increasing pain in his left shoulder especially if he lifted over a certain hieght. he was recommended by his gp to see a physio. went to the physio for a few weeks n said each time was agonising & with no real relief afterwards... the physio told him due to his age it would take a while before the exertions resulted in relief & recommended more sessions.

he decided to use a chiro & went for one session that he also said was extremely painful for no real benefit.

he tried another gp & specifically asked for xrays/scans. turned out that of the major ligaments connecting his shoulder to it's socket, only one wasn't broken. the gp with the xrays told him that without doubt the stretching & moving that both the physio & the chiro got him to do would just have resulted in more damage. he got an operation to re-attach the broken ligaments & now is all good.


last edited by demon at 13:59:42 25/May/09

Of course Chiros are medical, that's why private health insurance covers your visits to them. They're classified as an alternative therapy/medicine!

I know you're kidding, but just to be clear, health insurance is a scam worse than chiropractors. They offer acupuncture and massage cover! They can offer anything to pander to the tastes of idiots who buy health cover - they will offer you health cover to buy wishing stones and fairy dust if you're willing to pay for it.

my old man had increasing pain in his left shoulder especially if he lifted over a certain hieght. he was recommended by his gp to see a physio. went to the physio for a few weeks n said each time was agonising & with no real relief afterwards... the physio told him due to his age it would take a while before the exertions resulted in relief & recommended more sessions.

My old man had the exact same injury.
70 and hes still doing the work of fit young people.
If he stops working he thinks he will die.

So, I have a bung hip. It clicks when I walk a lot. Now I am doing exercise it hurts a lot.

So, Physico or Chiro? I am leaning toward chiro, but who is to say it isn't the muscle?


Come on DR QGL, diagnose me

So, Physico or Chiro? I am leaning toward chiro, but who is to say it isn't the muscle?

You should go to a GP and get their opinion. If you don't want to do that, I think you'd be absolutely mad to go to a chiro; at least do a physio. I think demon's story is worth a re-read.

Kat, check out this link for a no-s*** factual account of chiropractic:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4042

From the site:

I have some volleyball friends who see chiropractors regularly, and swear by them. Like some other sports, volleyball is one that keeps its elder players fairly constantly in the offices of orthopedic surgeons and physical therapists. Athletic massage and physical therapy are often essential parts of injury recovery, but if improperly performed, they absolutely have potential to cause more damage and make a bad situation worse. That's why we have certification boards for massage therapists and Doctors of Physical Therapy — top physical therapists should have a DPT after their name on the door. Physical therapists who are not doctors still must have taken an accredited four-to-six-year college program and must pass a national physical therapy examination and an examination on the laws and regulations governing the practice of physical therapy. Physical therapy assistants must take an accredited two-year college program and must pass the national physical therapist assistant examination, and they may only work under the supervision of a licensed physical therapist. A physical therapy aide is not licensed and is not required to meet any education requirements and has no formal training. However, they are required to work only under the direct physical supervision of a licensed physical therapist. When my volleyball friends report back about what their chiropractor did for them today, guess what? It's often exactly the same treatment I've received from my DPT. Some of these chiropractors are doing conventional physical therapy but without having taken the training and passed the tests, and they're getting away with it because they're calling it chiropractic. Not only is that untrue, it's illegal, unless that chiropractor also happens to be a licensed physical therapist. If you have a painful sports injury, you should be going to an orthopedist anyway, who is licensed to provide medical care and can do things like order an MRI to properly assess an injury.

Essentially, on the off chance that a chiropractor does something that actually works, it's likely because they have stolen something from people who actually use science in their therapies.

It's difficult for me to explain in a short reply why it's important that you trust science-based practitioners over non-science based charlatans, but there are very very good reasons.

Basically, good practitioners won't just ask "What do we do that's good?", they also ask, "What is wrong with what we do, and how can we improve it?" Chiro's don't really do this, and so their methods are based on faulty logic and reasoning.

If you really want, go to the chiro and see for yourself. At best you can expect to get a placebo effect, but that's a pretty expensive price to pay for a placebo.

I saw a 20/20 story on Chiropracters doing neck manipulations of BABIES !
They claim they can help babies fight off coughs and colds and helps them sleep better.

They showed video of it being done to what looked like a 12 month old baby.

Watch at about 40 secs.

I saw a 20/20 story on Chiropracters doing neck manipulations of BABIES !
They claim they can help babies fight off coughs and colds and helps them sleep better.

Okay. So normally if a person posted this, I'd interpret that post as sceptical sounding. But it's you, so I'm going to go with "and you believe that crap?"...

As for Private Health Insurers offering benefits for Massage, hey, that helps me plenty. As a cyclist that kind of stuff helps recovery heaps, so that I can claim it certainly reduces some cost. So long as it's done right though, none of this soft chinese massage bulls*** - it's only useful when it's full-on painful sports/deep tissue massage.

If you really want, go to the chiro and see for yourself. At best you can expect to get a placebo effect, but that's a pretty expensive price to pay for a placebo.

if thats the case, how the f*** has chiro as a profession survived!?

surely if it didnt help, people would stop going to chiros and the profession would naturally die out?

People are convinced it works, regardless of whether it does. There is a lot of nonsense people believe in and spend money on. Lots of experiments have been done where a researcher posing as a salesman convinces people that something that doesn't make sense and has no effect is real and helpful and worth a lot of money.

Spook, you misunderstood me. 30% of people should expect to get a placebo effect from going to the chiro. So, even if a therapy does NOTHING, ~30% of people should still get a benefit.

A certain percentage of people won't get any result, but they won't get worse either, so we, the public, won't hear about these cases.

Another percentage of people will naturally get better over time, and just because they had chiro during that period, they will incorrectly attribute positive outcomes to the treatment.

There's a couple of other reasons, but basically, that is why the profession doesn't die out.

surely if it didnt help, people would stop going to chiros and the profession would naturally die out?

And yet s*** like homeopathy survives. You are ignoring the inherent stupidity of the species, Spookie.

My doctor uses some pretty derogatory terms when talking about them.

meh they work for some, not for others
you don't have to go to them but you shouldn't knock them just because you didn't get what you wanted

I have never had a bad experience and i've been visiting chiros on and off for years
I put my back out, I go see a chiro for a few months (twice per month) and then im fine again for another year or two until i put my back out again ..

pain killers wouldn't do s*** for me if i went to see a GP

Did you ever think that maybe going to the Chiro was only removing the symptom and that it keeps recurring because you have a serious problem ?

GP - CT scan - MRI scan - Orthopedic Surgeons opinion.

What's the Harm is always a good read.

teq completely exemplified my point.

Did you ever think that maybe going to the Chiro was only removing the symptom and that it keeps recurring because you have a serious problem ?

GP - CT scan - MRI scan - Orthopedic Surgeons opinion.

Did you ever think I ended up at a chiro after years of bulls*** with doctors?
I'm a huge mother f***er, I have back problems because I dont get enough excersize

If I were a gym junkie I probably would never have to go to the chiro, but at the same time I could have just kept putting it out

This thread has been taken over by the Harrisons

it seems they have a collective axe to grind

poppa harrison has done his job well

If you want to go to Chiro and you feel better than power to you.

If you want to cure your Back Problems then you need to see a Specialist.
A Chiro and a GP are not Specialists.

Has your chiro told you about Innate Intelligence teq?

I'm not sure I would want someone who believes in a whacky metaphysical concept like this f***ing with my spine.

If you want to cure your Back Problems then you need to see a Specialist.

such as a chiro?
he knows more about my back than any doctor I've ever been to

seriously I don't understand the negative connotations surrounding chiros, this guy actually lays me on my stomache and uses his hands to manipulate my spine

I get instant relief from it and even drugs/physio can't do that for me, so whatevs

I would be of the belief that pro actively protecting your back from harm would be better in the long run then having to continually have your spinal elements 'manipulated' to remove pain...

Read up on chiropractic and see why its got such a bad rep - in its purest form its f***ing voodoo.

The guy's cracking your back and it feels good, that's all that's happening.

seriously I don't understand the negative connotations surrounding chiros

I think that's because you've ignored most of the negative comments in this thread about their training, expertise, and what they reckon they can do... now, don't get me wrong - I'm sure some chiros are decent types and actually aren't claiming they can cure asthma or stop you being pregnant or whatever. But seriously, anyone that belongs to a group of people that actually think they're doing that stuff without any evidence supporting it at all doesn't it make you wonder?

this guy actually lays me on my stomache and uses his hands to manipulate my spine

that just gives me shivers dude

every time I've ever been, I walk in sit down and wait for my name to be called
I go in, he pushes in the right places, not very hard at all mind you

I get up and I feel way better, I can stretch properly again and have no more pain
this will last for months if not years until I do something stupid (like pickup something heavy with my back rather than my legs)

it costs me $20ish dollars per visit and I can't fault the service

did I mention I'm f***ing huge? seriously, I'm lurch's sexier cousin
chiropractor, Gp or physio - either way I'm always going to have back problems and this is what I've found works for me

I haven't been to a chiro in around 12 months and I put most of that down to getting rid of my stupidly low car that I had to lower myself into using the rollcage, in favor of the ute I now drive which I kind of climb into

oh, and im a lot more careful about lifting heavy s*** with my knees these days vs lifting with my back
doctors used to give me painkillers for back problems, that treatment is worse than someone applying pressure in the right place to alleviate pain imo

I normally get the voodoo doctor on me get some cranial sacral work done. That s*** is f***ing awesome, but sometimes you need something more (and not wait weeks for an appointment that isn't covered by insurance)

I would be of the belief that pro actively protecting your back from harm would be better in the long run then having to continually have your spinal elements 'manipulated' to remove pain...

this has worked very well for me

I'll trade places with anyone who thinks being 210cm tall would be great
nothing in this world is made for anyone > pant size 38, shoe size 12 or shirt size "XXL"

the *only* benefit is getting peoples attention when you want it, this can also be a downside when you don't want it however

did I mention I'm f***ing huge? seriously, I'm lurch's sexier cousin

Have you considered hugeness reduction therapy?

he's big boned, you'd need an angle grinder or some s***

I've heard HRT can make chicks into agro bitches though; I'm not sure we want teq getting angrier.

saying you're huge, or 210cm doesn't mean a lot to me on it's own - are you suggesting you're not proportionate in some way thus your back is under different pressure than regular-sized people? if so then it's not your size or height that's the issue, it's the fact that you're disproportionate.

in size

leverage seems to be the big problem with tall people, like when I bend over if I dont' lift correctly, I'm putting more weight on my spine for the same package as anyone who is shorter
this is why I go out of my way to bend at the knees

I can't really be sure but I'd say my joints and what not are only slightly larger than yours
average male being something like 80kg and 6'1" ?
I'm 6'8" and 145kg, my joints certainly wouldn't be 30-40% larger than yours?

I have to bend down further to get to things that are a generic height (toilets etc) and bend further to get up
this happens all day ever day for your entire life, it is bound to eventually have an impact

I can't wait till I build my first house or renovate my bathroom because I'm going to raise the s***ter up at least a foot

You know you're going to have trouble squeezing one out if you're up too high. See Squatting.

well I'll modify a leg press machine into my bathroom so I can sit up high with my knees around my ears

teq - what's your flexibility like? I get back pain when I stop excercising and my physios always tell me its related to my complete and utter lack of flexibility. Seriously its so bad that when they're getting me to demo it, they call over other physios to say "hay look at this guy, he can't even do this stretch".

Can you touch your toes standing up?

hell no, I can barely get past my knees
I've been given different stretches to do but yeah, I go through phases of exercise and laziness

when I do go to gym for the first week or two I can barely move my legs but after that it starts feeling awesome and I get right into it
then I get lazy again because we get swamped at work or something

I know I don't get enough exercise

I dont get Gym people. Are they in training to be Astronauts ?
work all day then go do more work and pay to do that work >.<

I been Squatting for years.
Think i saw it in a doco one time when i was at school.

i go the gym during work time :)

I have an axe to grind - the axe called "truth", and I'm grinding it with pseudoscience.

Well The Dr didn't recommend an 'o' of any kind. He wants me to get an MRI. WTF!

What sort of "Dr" are you refering to? A real doctor (PhD), a medical doctor (MBBS), or a sham doctor (any other qualifications)?

Dr MD - At least I hope they make sure they have real doctors at my medical centre.

haha me too. Hopefully they explained that an MRI will better assess the extent of the injury. It will allow them to 3D image your hip, and see how concerned you should be and what treatment will be best.

If you want a cheaper, easy answer, just go to a chiro who will fix your hip by playing with your spine... (couldn't resist)

teq - I just found this webform to see if your chiro is registered in QLD. Worth a quick look, because they shouldn't be touching you without being registered.

http://www.healthregboards.qld.gov.au/PublicAccess/pa_main.asp?Board=CHI

I googled "brisbane chiropractor" and one of the first five names is not registered, and is in breech of the policy on the use of the "Dr" title... as are a few others from the top 10 on google. So far only one out of about 10 sites haven't had misleading information about what they can actually help out with.