At www.demographia.com

And its as grim as ever.
Brisbane atleast dropped out the top 25 most unaffordable markets, we are 30th now. (Sydney, Melborune,Perth and Hobart all made it tho)

Australia: The least affordable housing, overall, is in Australia, where seven of eight markets have Median Multiples of 6.0 or above and all markets are rated “severely unaffordable or “seriously unaffordable.”7 The national Median Multiple is 6.6, more than double the “affordable” standard of 3.0.

The American markets have flattened out.

It also has some interesting graphs were it maps price increase against cpi accross a 13 year time span. Relatively speaking cars and appliances are then they were 13 years ago. Food and houses are 50% more expensive. Fuel is around twice the price. While land has trippled in value.

The extreme land cost inflation leads to the premise that the housing cost inflation is largely due to a shortage of land for development. This may seem absurd in a nation that is 0.3 percent developed and in which large swaths of land exist that could be developed adjacent to all major markets. The problem, as the cited research below indicates, is an artificially created shortage of land for residential development.

It mentions some solutions etc etc

Ineffective Strategies: Regrettably, some popular policies will do little or nothing to restore housing affordability and can even worsen it by imposing additional costs on home buyers not qualifying for relief under the policies. Some governments have established first home buyer grants, however their amounts are trifling compared to the extent of the problem. It would, for example require $120,000 of taxpayer funding in Adelaide, $375,000 in San Diego, €175,000 in Dublin and £80,000 in the average UK market to nullify the excess housing cost inflation.

*shrug*

No wonder i cant afford to buy a house brizzy still has highly inflated house prices..

Sucks to not be in the property market then, don't it? :)

The bottom line is that everyone wants to live close to the sea. Those local authorities close to the sea are reaching bursting point, so who would move west if they knew they could buy a comparable house for half the price. Not many I guess.

Typical whingers. Either get the $$$ or get over your fascination with water cause you can't have it both ways.

You can also thank Beattie for the incredibly complex and convoluted Integrated Planning Act. It takes fricking 12 months to get anything done so developers are always behind the demographic trend because the legislation prevents an immediate response.

And you can also thank Beattie for his incredibly short-sighted lack of infrastructure planning that would have enabled the south-east to house more people earlier. Now we are faced with virtually unliveable city which will grind to a halt over the next 5 years as long overdue massive infrastructure programs (North South bypass tunnel, Gateway Duplication, damns, desal, water recycling pipeline) are delivered in their typical half-assed spin flavoured Beattie fashion. What a useless c***.

last edited by infi at 20:32:45 23/Jan/07

Personally I'd hate to live near the sea. Salt water in all my stuff, tsunamis, noisy ass seagulls, amphibious devil spawn emerging from the water to eat your babies and sand in everyone's everything.

yer, im quite happy not living near the sea (salt, tidal waves, wind)

We did an online quote for CBA for a loan which I think was... about $280k or something (nothing huge).

I think the repayments came in at about $700 per week. We currently pay $335 per week rent for a nice, 2 story, three bedroom, airconditioned, renovated kitchen / bathroom, carpeted house at Chermside. To own a house of lesser quality as this one (no way you'd get this for $280k), would cost us OVER DOUBLE than our rent repayments just to f***ing pay it back.

The interest on the repayments were more than what we pay in rent. So the old saying "Rent money is dead money" also applies to "Loan interest repayment money is dead money".

We simply cannot afford to pay $700 per week, ever. It's never going to be feasable.

I have no f***ing clue what to do, really.

^^ and ^^^

rust too. rust is bad mmkay.

our house repayments are $440 a week
admittedly we had a pretty good deposit also

we probably have more spare money now then when we were renting
we charge bro in law 150 a week to live with us

Infi, you a U&RP?

IPA isn't that hard to understand, and Labor government (despite their many, many faults) actually tried to put in place heaps of infrastructure stuff. But the majority of it got blocked.
Like the Proposed Ring Road around the outer suburbs (actually got blocked twice) and planned Damns. Both before Beattie though...

when i use the phrase "live by the sea" it is meant in the typical sense of australian topography being near the australian coastline e.g. within 50kms, where is urban density already is.

why don't any of these pov c***s move to where my sis live in wandoan? cos there ain't any westfields out there, thats why.

Scooter, I am a developer. But I know the IPA pretty well.

I don't know how you can say Beattie's initiatives got blocked. For one he had no initiatives, they were all stolen from the Coalition. Secondly, they couldn't be blocked because in Queensland we have a unicameral parliament (no senate) so what Beattie says goes. So in short it's been 10 years of spin!

haha, you crack me up infi

bring back joh eh?

Loan interest repayment money is dead money".

Yes when you are paying off someone ele's house. Might as well repay your own/rent it out/etc.

While interest may appear to be 'dead money' it is allowing you to hold an asset which will increase in value over time.

I actually said Labour not Beatie. Not that it makes a difference.
It's the Public thats the main problem not the Pollies.

Also, IPA's not that bad... Hell even us Surveyors can understand it (well, most of us atleast)

As for living near the Coast yeah. I wouldn't move out though either.

the only reason we need so many houses because the dirty southeners keep moving up here

and also using all of our water

fkn mexicans

Who here has an investment property?

I have a hotel on Coventry.

a complex system is better than no system at all. i would never want a return to joh and corruption, but the the topic is housing affordability and the primary cause has been correctly identified as lack of supply.

the easiest way to remedy the situation is to make development of large tracts of residential housing in a coordinated quick manner. there is no quick fix, people need somewhere to live. it's that simple.

While interest may appear to be 'dead money' it is allowing you to hold an asset which will increase in value over time.

Unless of course the market can't sustain current values and drops ... Then you have a huge loan for something worth alot less.

we were able to get a sizeable deposit, coz we lived in a house with cheap rent for a few years and were able to put a fair whack of cash away, pay off all our debts and get a few investments on the go (sup managed funds, u little lovelies)

Still, looking at Aus. house pricing is like reading a work of fiction, after looking at house prices in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Places *start* at $500k-$600k for a two bedroom condo. No thanks.

whinge whinge whine

hahaha tsunamis

i dunno about you guys but i personally would rather live in a coastal city/town than an inland one & it has nothing to do with the density of shopping centers. that is the sorta stupid 'solution' i'd expect from a frothing coalition supporter though. :D

if i can pay off a housing loan on my meager wage than i rekn most people could if they just knuckled down a bit. save a good deposit, don't expect to own a dream house for your first house, etc.

GF & I bought our first house last August and haven't looked back. Sure it's a large portion of my salary (she's uni'ing atm) but at least I finally have an asset that will go up in value.

one day you noobs will learn...

you should have all sold your houses 2 years ago and invested heavily in stocks.. ride the boom for a few years then switch back to property

7 year interest rate cycle kids.. learn it

so what's the solution demon if everyone wants to live near the coast?

i was merely pointing out that inland housing is cheaper (except in mining towns), so affordable housing exists - it just mightn't be where people want it.

If an average first home owner's house these days is $300k and to avoid mortgage insurance (i.e. anal rapage) the buyer requires 20% deposit or $60k. that's a lot of money for most people. i bought my own house in 2001 for $200k and now its worth $350k which is crazy.

This is what the Brisbane market will experience when the growth in population is far exceeding housing supply growth.

The housing market in australia will never come back down. It has caught up with the times and is now steady, particularly in Brisbane.

There is really no good time or bad tiem to buy just just have to buy the right property for the right price.

As for rent money being dead money I full agree with that. Anyone that says paying your own house off is a waste is a fool.

IMO doing he hard yards right now to get into your own property is better for you in the long term. May be harder now but what will you do when you have to retire in 30-40 years time and have no capital? Yes you may have a bit of super but that will be it.

superform indeed knows what time it is

our mortgage broker ran us through the 7 year cycle

Bored at work, just looking at renting v buying

Option A: use a deposit of $60,000 to buy a $300,000 home ($240,000 loan, 25yrs)

Option B: Put $60,000 into high interest rate account (expect to receive 4% return p.a. on cash after tax). Also put difference from rent and repayments into savings.

Option C: Same as Option B, except put money into rando investments and hopefully return 12% p.a. after tax).

Option D: Same as Option C except you live at home with parnets and pay no rent
Option A Loan Option B Option C Option D
Year House value Repay. Rent
2007 $300,000 $22,356 $14,400 $60,000 $60,000 $60,000
2008 $315,000 $22,356 $14,400 $70,356 $75,156 $89,556
2009 $330,750 $22,356 $14,400 $81,126 $92,131 $122,659
2010 $347,288 $22,356 $14,400 $92,327 $111,142 $159,734
2011 $364,652 $22,356 $14,400 $103,976 $132,435 $201,258
2012 $382,884 $22,356 $14,400 $116,091 $156,284 $247,765
2013 $402,029 $22,356 $14,400 $128,691 $182,994 $299,853
2014 $422,130 $22,356 $14,400 $141,795 $212,909 $358,191
2015 $443,237 $22,356 $14,400 $155,423 $246,414 $423,530
2016 $465,398 $22,356 $14,400 $169,595 $283,940 $496,709


At the end of 2016 the value of the loan is $190,600
Equity at end of period.
Option A: $274,798 less selling costs + rando expenses.
Option B: $169,595
Option C: $283,940
Option D: $496,709

Obviously you can pay more or less rent and housing prices can go up heaps faster (also investments can easily return a lot more than 12% p.a) plus other variables such as interest rates going up and down or you have an inability to save money but its just a simple example...to explore if rent money is dead money.

capto the thing is if you want your money to work hard you have to know how to work it

sitting idle in a steady/declining market with increasing interest payments is not a good way to be working your money for the next 5+ years..

pay rent.. which will be cheaper then interest payments.. (look to leasing for about 5-7% property value) then put your capital into the stockmarket.. (in a form you can understand.. ie managed funds) then borrow capital to make the cash work as hard as it can..(margin lending) then gain capital growth while all the poor suckas who are stuck in property are paying higher morgage payments and sitting on a dud capital gain

i tell alot of people though that you buy a house for several reasons.. if your main reason is to invest.. then your crazy to be holding property atm

if your main reason is for a home for your family and your not too concerned with wasting money or capital growth then keep your house and dont whinge about rising costs

bout 3 years ago i was having this conversation with a guy with a 700k property.. he said if there was 1 company to put all my cash where would it be..

at the time bhp was $12 and it was topping the sector results.. i said put all your cash into bhp.. he did.. and 2.5 years later he is sitting on a 100+% capital gain.. this is a gain he would have not recieved sitting on the easy option of holding a property

anyway none of this is advise.. just mumblings

That is true. Yo uavhe to ahve y our reasons to buy a house. If you are investing in property you (as i said b4) have to bu ythe right property for the right price. You cannot just got to xyz street and buy a house and decide to rent it for profit long term. The house has to be in the right spot that is attractive to renters and cost the right amount of money for the rental return.

As for shares well investing in any decent company within australia will always be the win with what factors are driving the share market. Nto gonig to mention the driving factors coz no one has mentioned the real reason why shares are the win yet.

Why has bhp doubled in value? Dont' say because htey have grown, why have they grown? There are major driving factors within australia that are not ever going to stop pushing our property and share market up. The PK government put these in palce.

They have grown because they are brilliantly managed (and also because they are digging highly valuable material out of holes in the ground).

Australian consumers then buy these nuggets of raw materials back in the form of wide screen LCDs and motor vehicles (usually on credit they don't have) thus accelerating our foreign debt and forcing interest rates up, making housing more unaffordable.

that is a very minor factor infi. That is what the media hype up to say is driving the market but in reality is only a minor force behind it.

The real driving force of the australian stock market and property is our super funds.

In australia there is over 1 trillion dollers in super funds. What do the funds do with this money? They do 1 of 3 things, keep it as cash, invest in property or invest in stocks (of various sorts)

Even if all super funds only invested as little at 10% of the super funds into the australian stock market that is over 100 billion dollers being invested back in to the australian market.

Every person that works in australia (may be minor execptions) has to get a minimum of 9% super each year, all this super is then reinvested by the super funds into the divided amount specified by the fund. That is a crap load of money going into the market.

While this money wil lalwyas be invested into the market our share prices and housing prices will always go up regardless if there is a stock market crash. A crash will only slow it for 6-12 months. A few smaller people may be affected but the big business wil lrecover quickly and keep going up.

in fact i think you will find that from a global perspective even superannuation is insignificant. in last week's bulletin there was article stating that derivatives form something like 837% of world GDP, and I am talking in the region of 100s of trillions of dollars which fluidly moves around the globe much like underwriters split the risk of their insurance policies.

No australian fund manager can have any real influence in the value of our assets in the global economy when funds of this magnitude can swarm in and out at the click of a button.

Australian super does tend to focus its investments domestically, but BHP is a stock traded on both the Aus and UK exchanges and nare I say pays scant regard to the views of superfunds.

The value of assets is derived by their risk and return. Housing has bubbled in Queensland because of the super low risk, and the perceived high return fueled by the well-publicised shortage.

It is only now that the Australian consumer's debt binge is having to be repaid that they are all crying poor. No one complained about housing affordability while they could still balance their home and credit card repayments.

last edited by infi at 13:54:45 24/Jan/07

dumb c***s with credit cards they can't afford deserve to crash

Unless of course the market can't sustain current values and drops ... Then you have a huge loan for something worth alot less.

The key word in my post was 'over time'. You must have missed that.

The hosuing market boomed in Brisbane when the first home owners grant was introduced. This suddenly openned the housing market to alot of poeple. Similar to what mortage insurance did in the early 80's.

the reason BHP rose so much?

1, it was a resource stock
2, it is a stock listed in alot of indexs (this is important with managed funds that need to have a % of shares listed in those various indexes
3, china is a big ass country and needs resources
4, houseing boom was about to turn after 3 years of artificial interest rates designed to try to combat a global meltdown
5, investment people and institutions were starting to pull there money out of a declining market (property) and into a growth market (equity)
6, it was the biggest and most profitable company in Au
7, it was bouncing around 9-10 for awile.. once it broke 12 it was time to get on and enjoy the ride
8, investors knew all these points
9, mum and dad investors did not
10, they all jumped on and boom away it went...

however this happened to a broad spectem of aussie shares
however because of some of the key points i listed it was always going to happen to BHP

imo BHP will go to 30-32 before a decline over the next few years

last edited by Superform at 20:55:42 24/Jan/07

if i can pay off a housing loan on my meager wage than i rekn most people could if they just knuckled down a bit. save a good deposit, don't expect to own a dream house for your first house, etc.

You bought your house when it was worth probably 2 or 3 times your annual salary, 4 tops. Your place is now worth probably 6 times your annual salary.

A "good" deposit these days is 100k... Thats a whole lot of savin

personally i think high property prices is bad for the aussie economy. I remember when ppl used to buy houses... to live in.

you're talking yourself into failing obes

he is - but he makes a valid point.


If I was still single (and 40) like Obes (prolly is) I'd definately be going to 'work like a slave and live off next to nothing' scenario for the next ~10 years, putting all savings into investments in order to afford a kickass deposit on a house that I'd prolly end up sharing with lan-buddies if you're not married already to help pay it off. It was a great idea back in my 20s. Well worth doing still for those that can/want to.


I always figured I'd do this, but Mrs Koopz swung her sexy ass into my path long before I was ready for it. Meh - I hit it all the same :P


I'm sure in 50 years I'll look back in laugh, but for now I'm working 3 jobs to make it happen. Back in 1997 I could have put the money together for all of this in just one year - now it's 5 years with 3 different sources of income.

Man am I glad to have bought my house before the "boom". In a good suburb too, there's no way in the world that I'd be able to buy my house back now.

infi: i have no solution... i just saw a chance to put some s*** on you. took it. felt pretty good about myself afterwards so pls don't ruin it now. :D

obes: yeh when i bought my house it was ~2x my annual salary... but it was still a long shot from the house i wanted... i just accepted a little colonial in a crappy suburb coz i didn't wanna ever be in a situation where i couldn't afford to make payments. obviously this isn't gonna suit everyone but it turned outto be a pretty good choice for me... coz i have no house pride, i have a blackthumb when it comes to gardening, etc.. i just wanted a place to store food & stuff, sleep & have fishtanks :D

Jim no, I am just annoyed with the cards that are being dealt. I almost have the deposit sorted.

Koopz, actually one of the reasons I am not racing to buy a house now is I recently moved in my girl friend. And if it doesn't work out, I'd rather not complicate the situation joint property. ie. I'll wait till there is rings involved.

Demon, your same "little colonial in a crappy suburb" is probably 300k-350k now.

I recently moved in obes girlfriend too. She moaned and called saints mums name

Koopz, actually one of the reasons I am not racing to buy a house now is I recently moved in my girl friend. And if it doesn't work out, I'd rather not complicate the situation joint property. ie. I'll wait till there is rings involved.

yeah did that one. It sucked.

We know thats a lie crusher because you are doing the whole manlisa thing. When's your big chop happening ?

age obes?

sLaps I am sure you are nice and stuff ... but I don't swing that way.

property is completely f***ed atm... im just gonna buy pieces of s*** boxes and use my practical knowledge to renovate them build them up to something better...

Trouble is ace.. the house is worth less then the land.

obes has been whinging about housing prices for as long as QGL has existed.

yeah stop whinging and buy one u pussy

Sell the Jimny and put it towards your deposit ... SILLY!

Actually, My homeloan broker was telling me the other day that 'you young kids' today are hopeless and saving but great at paying back debt, and that a few of the credit unions are looking at offering 'deposit loans' which are a loan you can get and put in a high-interest account for six months, and then take to a bank to use as a deposit.

not sure if anyone actually offers it as a product yet, but might be worth looking into. Of course it becomes a loan on top of a loan, but if you can afford both payments you're laughing.

Keep in mind that they'll probably take into account the "loan for the deposit" as a liability and my effect you getting the loan.

I know when i bought my house and borrowed some money for the deposit from the old man I had to put it down as a non-repayable gift that i'm paying back :P.

For me my motives for buying a house had more to do with actually owning something and setting up an asset to start a family not what % return i'm going to get out of it.

Everyone has forgotten to mention the biggest con in the whole renting / mortgage debate; Real estates! I can tell you right now i don't miss the f***ing 3 month inspections aswell as the whole "you're in someone elses house". If i want to put a picture up I put a goddamn nail in that wall :D.

Second/Thirding that if owning a house is something that you really want to do then some sacrifices need to be made and you need to be realistic. Before i bought my house i was living at the gold coast. I realised that even a s***ty little duplex in labrador was probably out of my price range. So i chose somewhere else.

Selling my jimny (even if I got 20 grand for it) wouldn't increase my deposit by much.