Hey I just bought a Holden Astra AH model.. (latest model).
I wanted a brand new car not second hand so i got this little baby.

I'm picking it up today and I can't wait. It's going to be a dark silver colour

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/modeloverview?modelid=26001

I paid extra for an upgrade kit which included mags, power windows, cruise control and petrol, floor mats and paint for free!...

heh.. If anyone wants a new car, brand new or second hand, and other brands too, lemme know I can hook you up with the salesperson that helped me and gave me a huge discount $3K-$3.5K off RRP !!!

E-mail: marty83@hotmail.com
I'll post pics when I get it!

Outright or loan?

if you're driving an astra all togeather you'll be a fag either way.


you know, even my starlet is less faggieR than an astra.

should have bought my starlet..

ps. congrats

last edited by Suhaib at 13:12:59 25/Feb/05

Astra Classic > New Astra.

Nice car Marty.

Welcome to the world of rapid depreciation.

Nice looking car, congrads.

Sif trade in this for an astra MARTY

http://images.ausimages.com/upload//2005-02-25/DeLorean.jpg

does it matter Kat?

Supreme: Wtf m8... Now turbo as of yet anyway in this line... Why call me a fag???

Buy a second had Starlet? no thanks.

Astra classic looks like arse.. I test drove the Classic and doesn't go as hard as the new.. Plus when I resell the new Astra will go for way more.

nice car marty, you should of done up the bombadore ;)

Hmm I have been tempted by them Marty ... Looking at cars atm

Can't decide between a new or recent second hand.

But in the new cars this has been an option.

Marty, Well I got a newish car and thought it was the bomb, but it was my first loan on anything and it ended up making me wish I hadn't gotten the car.

Just wondering if you get the joys of a new car without the paying back of it!

It wasn't sinisters and it wasn't a trying to find out about you, sorry if you took it that way

did you get your penis chopped off recently marty?

lol

yeah m8.. you bit it off!

np's Kat.. What sorta car did you get??

Are you feeling vunerable at the moment marty??? is there anything i can do to make you more happy??

Tell me about your childhood... Did you play with the other chilren when you were young???

Look at this inkblot, what do you see???

I'm just trying to find out about you, sorry if you took it that way...

Obes. I recommend this car as it is the 3rd or 4rth year for the best car under 25K. It runs beautifully and smooth and doesn't choke like the mazda 3 when I add a little more gas :)

The only thing lacking in this vehicle is the lack of pockets and compartments, cup holders (aint drinking in a new car neway), and the dash looks a little apollo13 but awesome stylish modern car.

boxhead, why you paying me out? what i eva do to you??

Funny how people talk tough over the net.

np's Kat.. What sorta car did you get??

I purchased a 1-2 year old car (old man driver) a few years ago. It is just the best, but some days I wish I had gotten a second hand car and no loan :)

my left nut.

my starlet is selling for $5k. atleast i didn't get a car on loan, only dumb c***s do that!


ps you should have gotten the turbo.

Suhaib, what makes you so sure it was a loan? Maybe it is maybe it isn't...

Plus, if you clicked on my link, you would have noticed that this new range of astra's doesn't have turbo. It may in the future but not atm.

last edited by Marty at 13:45:15 25/Feb/05

needs more nissan

and not getting a loan to buy a car results in purchasing toyota starlets

no one wants that;

boxhead, why you paying me out? what i eva do to you??

Funny how people talk tough over the net

I surely am not...

Gw getting a nice car, new cars are awesome because you know where its been, what its done and how its been treated.. Keep up the services and it'll last you the 2-3 years in pristine condition then you can sell it without making too much of a loss and get something else that tickles your fancy...

Thanks... I only appreciate constructive comments. Whether people like the car or not is cool with me, but abuse and stuff like that is just lame and immature... Like grow up.

I test drove a 2002 Model Astra a few weeks ago, it ran pretty sweet. If you don't mind telling us, what price did you end up getting it for? and what options? In a couple of weeks I'm going to start getting real serious about buying a new car or a car about 2-3 years old. Astra's, Carolla's and Mazda3's all interest me. So does the Honda Civic.

BTW without trying to much to steal the thread, any constructive comments about those cars I listed (preferably with some kind of info/link to back them up) would be great.

BTW Pretty sure the Golf got best car under 25K by Open Road magazine. Mazda 3 was 2nd and Astra was 3rd.

omg the new astra looks like ass!

u must be positively fag to buy one of those

shoulda gone the delorian (sp?)
or tha sleeka at least

SIFNT SLEEEEEEEEEEKA :D

Fade2Black,

corolla will live forever if ure planning on keeping the car for a while.


mazda 3 look awsome, duno much about how they go etc.

civic are okay, and if u get a vtec one then itll probably be the quickest one out of the ones u said.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/jaadam/yo.bmp

Civics are ok if you take it e z alright.

Marty your dad's paying you too much! ;)

Nice car btw take me for a spin biatch! :P

[quote="Nat"]u must be positively fag to buy one of those
[/quote]

Sorry for you but i'm not gay.

[quote="Fade2Black"]If you don't mind telling us, what price did you end up getting it for? and what options?[/quote]

I bought it for 24,500 Driveaway. They wanted 28 something and I bargained it right down..

I got metallic paint, floor mats and a full tank of petrol for free.

The pack that I paid extra for includes: 15" alloy wheels, cruise control, rear power windows (front come standard as does ABS brakes, cd playa, a/c etc etc)

people get paid $40 - $50 for what I'm doing

there is going to be an astra turbo coming out for the new model much like there was for the previous model (220hp i believe). I've got a mazda 3 and it's pretty nice... goes hard when i want it to and interior is an absolute gem.

is this marty, like polish[fella] marty? or some youngen?

I definitely would have went for the Mazda - they are all s*** slow so you could have at least had something that looks awesome.

Yeah I loved the Mazda 3 but when taking off I felt that the astra had more power (especially auto) and the mazda is a 2.0L where astra is a 1.8L..

A big thing that I didn't like with the mazda is that it doesn't have cruise control and didn't even have an upgrade kit with one in it.. I drive a lot to the coast etc and cruise control really helps :)

My mum has a mazda3 and they are a great car... Bit pricey though :\

I am the Polish Kabana :)

nice car marty. it's lush buying a brand new vehicles eh. some people might say a waste of money but i factor piece of mind heavily on that. just ignore the forum trolls who's automotive advice is usually 'ya should have bought what i have, because i refuse to admit that i have a s***box.' or 'you should have got {insert exotic car that is totally unsuitable for daily use} they rewl man!'.

i've got the mazda 3 sp23. goes good for me ;)

congratulations on the barina

yeah i wouldn't worry mate, most people here own cruddy s***heaps or nothing The Astra is a nice car, even if it won't win many races. Well done.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the new shape though, I reckon the older model SRi Turbo looks prett horn.

Nice car Marty. Good for a LAN car as well having a boot and the back seats. At least you know this will last you a long time.

8-)

not a barina :/

yeah thanks... I'm happy with it and it's brand new! :)

It has potential to look good. I wouldn't buy it though.

Its from Europe and they don't rate it over there....

what do you mean by they don't rate it over there???

Nice work marty :)

I'm going for a couple of test drives myself tomorrow:

http://mazda.com.au/rx8/

http://subaru.com.au/news/?newsid=12157

Was going to look at an STi but they don't even have any to test drive and it's a 14 week wait after ordering .... stuff that.

nice car

Hmm I have been tempted by them Marty ... Looking at cars atm

Can't decide between a new or recent second hand.

But in the new cars this has been an option.

wtf obes if you don't buy a 4wd I'm gonna drop you in the carpark @ qgl

Thats an idle threat and you know it.

Or is there something you want to tell the qgl community Jim?

spook, i'd rather not get f***ed up the bum.... thats what happens when you get a loan... especially for a car. i'd rather save up the hard way, and if i wanted to i've got enough to buy your 4 door.

last edited by Suhaib at 21:25:37 25/Feb/05

Or is there something you want to tell the qgl community Jim?

well as a matter of fact... I've had this feeling since I was born that I wasn't meant to be a male - so I am going to change into a female. I mean, I realise now that I always have been female - except for my appearance, hormones, shape and dna, so now all I have to is pick a girl's nick and upload a girly .sig

mazda 3 sp23's got very well indeed. my bros sp23 absolutely slaughters my gti swift. slaughters commodores, falcons, quite a few cars actually (obviously not the v8's or turbos but pretty f***en quick car thats only got a 2.3litre)

Was going to look at an STi but they don't even have any to test drive and it's a 14 week wait after ordering .... stuff that.

Its worth the wait. Get the Sti, dont be a fool. Im sure you can find 1 place that will give you a test drive.

go an EVO8... i believe they have a couple at Nundah Mitsubishi... only a little bit more than the STi and goes alright too...

I just came back from picking up my car... And i'd have to say it is a dream to drive.. So quick and smooth... It's beautiful...

It looks awesome at night with it's dark silver paint and shiny mags! mmmmm :)

New cars are exciting :) I got a new car about 2 months ago, second hand of course but I think its great.

Congrats and enjoy cruising in it.

Oh, and dont ding it or be silly :P

heh.. If anyone wants a new car, brand new or second hand, and other brands too, lemme know I can hook you up with the salesperson that helped me and gave me a huge discount $3.5K-$4K off RRP !!!

E-mail: marty83@hotmail.com

wtf obes if you don't buy a 4wd I'm gonna drop you in the carpark @ qgl

And then just think of all the distance you'll have to walk to the front entrance! You better do it man, he's not joking.

Watch out or you might be bashed by jim@qgl

Its worth the wait. Get the Sti, dont be a fool. Im sure you can find 1 place that will give you a test drive.

Yeah there's probably some place around town that has one, but I really can't be bothered waiting 14 weeks *minimum* ... I want it NOW god dammmit NOW! :> Besides which, I'm infatuated with the rx8 and I haven't even driven it yet. I know the STi has better performance but regardless of which car I get it will never be the fastest car on the road and wrx's here in Perth are pretty common. RX8 just looks better, IMHO. And not to mention the rotary ... it just gets me quite moist thinking about it.

How much is the EVO? $65k driveaway is about my limit.

RX8 is a pos - I heard one a while ago, and the guy was revving the absolute tits off it and it sounded like a 1985 corolla that was about to bust a nut. Its also probably alot slower compared to the Sti or even standard WRX. It also has idenitity issues, is it a 2 door or 4 door ? If you have seen the size of the seats in the back you'd think again, I wouldnt even fit my little toe in there. 14 weeks wait is dick all, 3.5 months and then you wont look back :D The evo 8 is about 65k now ( prolly not including OR's and Dc's) - check with your dealer - and they are far far not as common as the Subaru's, it has a lot of street credit as well, id seriously consider one of those over the Sti, its quicker and handles better. Dont worry about being the fastest, someone is always faster.

nice car

but....

heh.. If anyone wants a new car, brand new or second hand, and other brands too, lemme know I can hook you up with the salesperson that helped me and gave me a huge discount $3K-$3.5K off RRP !

dude, they saw you coming a mile away!

ALso, when I was in China recently I noticed there was an unusual amount of VW polo/golfs getting around. So I checked it out and you can buy them new over there for like $13k. They are getting seriously mass produced and they reckon you'll be able to buy a brand new VW Polo in Australia for $10k within 5 years.

hopefully the woo sees me through till then ;)

What possesd you to buy a Daewoo ? What posseses anyone to buy a Daewoo is a better question. Please enlighten us :)

Nice one Marty, I quite like the new Astras, hurry up and get some piccies up :D I got approved for finance myself the other day, get my new baby hopefully tuesday, 2nd hand but recent, I can't wait either :p

I'd love an Astra.. I see them all the time.

I think when we pay off our Lancer we're getting a 2nd car.. I'm going to push for an Astra :)

Well done marty, you've bought yourself a nice car that will be a pleasure to drive for many years to come.
You had a Commodore, yes?
What swayed your thinking towards an Astra instead of another Commodore?
Most people I know who buy Commodores never turn back.
I own a Corolla and i'll be damned if my next car isn't a big fat lazy auto six.

heh.. If anyone wants a new car, brand new or second hand, and other brands too, lemme know I can hook you up with the salesperson that helped me and gave me a huge discount $3.5K-$4K off RRP !!!

so u get more cash as well though a deal like this?

i rememmber when we bought the mirage new, the sales dude said the same thing to us

"if any of oyur mates buy cars through me, ill give you cash"

Speaking of cars hows the barge Spook ?

Can't believe u havent started your own thread. I know u are dying to refer to it again as a cyclone :P

"if any of oyur mates buy cars through me, ill give you cash"

I have heard of this before, spotters fee I think they call it.

Speaking of cars hows the barge Spook ?

its loud and faster (like way loud)

few little things i need sorted though, so ill go do that today

What possesd you to buy a Daewoo ?

price, I hate cars and I needed something that is good for fuel just to drive to work each day. I get 420km per tank on 100% city driving, the car cost me $2.8k and I've never had it serviced. Few minor problems here and there but they just went away after i ignored them long enough ;)

Get the 320hp version of the EVO8, its awesome, couple of seconds faster than the latest STi around a track. Don't go the 400hp version though, its got some issues.

If you were going subaru, just get a WRX, an STi is too expensive for what it has over the WRX.

price, I hate cars and I needed something that is good for fuel just to drive to work each day. I get 420km per tank on 100% city driving, the car cost me $2.8k and I've never had it serviced. Few minor problems here and there but they just went away after i ignored them long enough ;)

I cant understand why people hate the daewoo so much, i just got a 2000 daewoo lanos sedan with 56'k on the clock, central locking, power steering, cruise control, air con, and cd player, and new set of mags for $8700, int and ext in emac condtiion. pic

got over 650km's to a tank on a trip last weekend(almost all highway driving cus i live in the country) it has excellent take off, and transmission, it even uses a Holden/GM , ECETEC engine from the perth holden factory, they are good and very economical cars and so f***ing cheap to run. Some people say they hate the look's but i dont mind them.

last edited by 3x0dus at 11:14:18 26/Feb/05

If you were going subaru, just get a WRX, an STi is too expensive for what it has over the WRX.

pfft, no sti no care.

You surprise me Spidz, smart man.

Yeh I agree after a couple of yrs the novelty wears off and you wish the f*** you hadnt wasted that 15k on car now worth 5k. Personally I wish I had bought a 3k Daewoo. I could have spent the other 12k I saved on some new furniture or a trip somewhere.

I dont give a f*** about cars anymore. Basically as long as they get you from A to B in an effiecient manner, who gives a f***.

A bit of wa-cha-cha makes the trip from A-B more enjoyable.

If you were going subaru, just get a WRX, an STi is too expensive for what it has over the WRX.

If you can afford the Sti, get the Sti - come with what Subaru call POM ( Peace of Mind ). If not, Evo 8 ( 320 if you can get it ). You cant get the 400hp version of the Evo 8 here, only available to UK customers afaik.

People need hobbys to stop them going insane or becoming totally boring.

My car is my hobby*




* by that I mean, using my car to battle nF on highways ok

^ LoL maxe ok!

I have other hobbies, they inclde exercise and alot less money - but each to their own.

if i had the disposable income to justify it I would drive a nice car. In fact my own fiance drives a car that cost >$30k :/

i could beat her

Well done Marty, it's a great feeling buying a new car!! Just don't get to obsessive about it & remember the first scratch, door ding, stone chip is always the worst :)

BUY A 350z

I bought a new Subaru Impreza RS

OK well having driven both today I'd have to say the RX-8 is my choice. Why? Well, IMHO it looks about 10 times better than the WRX WRP10 externally and internally, well, let's just say that the WRX WRP10 looks like the Festiva my wife used to drive 10 years ago. Grey, plain and, well, boring. For a 'limited edition' vehicle especially, I'd have to say I was disappointed. The RX-8 on the other hand looked very much like what it is: a 'sports' car, both inside and out. I took a look at the EVO (didn't have a test drive booked so didn't drive it) and it just looked like a Lancer to me. Call me ignorant, call me stupid, but I want my $60k car to look a little different so Bob next door doesn't come home in his new standard Lancer he just bought and say "Hey, Justin, I saw your car and I went out and got myself one just like it!"

As for performace well, the vast majority of my driving is simply to work and back so having the fastest car in the world isn't my ultimate objective; remember guys, no matter how fast your car is, there's always one that's faster. The car has to be practical and driving the WRP10 felt as though it would be a real chore stuck in traffic. The turbo lag was quite pronounced and setting off in first or second gear was either a bullet-ride or a very real chance of stalling the vehicle. The RX-8 however felt controlled and delivered great acceleration, particularly when hitting the 8 or 9 thousand RPM line. Oh and the gear change on the RX8 is so small it's incredible.

The handling on both vehicles was very good, though I'd have to say the suspension on the WRP10 was a little too stiff for my liking. I could feel every bump as we went over it. The RX8 didn't feel nearly as stiff and the control through the steering wheel felt quite remarkable. Point your nose one way and the car would follow.

Anyways enough of my car review. That's my opinion from my experience today. I think to do both cars justice it would be great to be able to flog the absolute piss out of both them on a track somewhere to get a real feel for what they are like and test out each car's limits... but that's a story for another day :)

I spent a metric f***load on my 92 landcruiser, and I'm 17, however It's all worth it when you take a trip to ormeau and play in the mud and go down near vertical hills :)

thing is, the evo8, isn't just another lancer, its the f***ing bomb.


in my honest opinion i say forget the rx8.

wrx sti, where its at.

I'd get the rx8 if it had pistons LOL

The EVO looks different enough than the lancer. It has a distinguished front end and a big air vent on the bonnet.
In the end you need to get a car that you want, so if the RX-8 leaves you with a smile, buy it.
If you aren't, then definately go an EVO over a WRX/STi - they're so common its not funny, rather hardly any EVO's on the road and they are the better car (putting aesthetics and personal taste aside)

last edited by applor at 10:03:05 27/Feb/05

rx8's are hawt.

Just a thing you guys don't understand when we got our discount. The rrp of the vehicle as we bought it is $28000+ however my father, myself sat there for an hour and a half bargaining with them. Inititally they wanted $28000+ my father told them to get a life basically.. the salesperson ended up going to the manager about 4 times whilst we went for smoke breaks, the manager himself called the general manager of Zupps QLD and in the end they couldn't take it after 1.5hrs of negotiation so we ended up with $24500 with onroad costs plus auto, plus floormats, petrol, metallic paint, plus the $900 pack on it which included mags, cruise control, power windows abs breaks etc etc.

So the discount wasn't a sales pitch. It was us that made that price!

Other dealers couldn't match this price.

last edited by Marty at 10:49:30 27/Feb/05

I admit evo's look like a lancer so much that it is an embarrassment to Mitsubishi designers!!

Looks like you did well Marty. Tawp stuff

so if the RX-8 leaves you with a smile, buy it

Exactly applor - the WRX just didn't get me all that interested whereas the RX8 well... I couldn't get the smile off my face :)

Oh and well done Marty. That's one thing I'm looking forward too: screwing the absolute s***e out of these car salesman so I can get a good deal :)

Other dealers couldn't match this price.

huh? any dealer that sells astra could match this price, you don't think you arguing for 1.5 hours actually made them go 'yeah sure, lets sell it for a loss' The dealers buy it wholesale price, you buy it from them - what margin they choose to tkae is their decision, but any other dealer can match it.

since when does anyone buy a car at RRP? you're not robinson crusoe here dude.

well I went to other dealers and they didn't want to know me when I asked for a price match for 24.5K....
Plus i didn't want them to just match it, i wanted them to beat it by another $500 or so and no-one wanted to do it.

This car included 12 months rego which I think all new cars do anyway.

So there ya go spidz.. I think for $28K a 3.5K discount is pretty good.

i never said it was a loss.. but maybe it's just above a loss... who knows how much they make on a car...

good effort, but RRP is exactly that. Only an idiot pays the RRP. Sounds like you did OK.

Don't forget that the RRP manufacturers list in their brochures doesn't include stamp duty (6.5% here in WA for vehicles over $40k), dealer delivery and rego (usually 6 months). It's really the difference between the retail drive away price and the price you managed to get that's important. If you've got a driveaway prive that's less than the RRP of the vehicle then you've done pretty well.

Dealers will never sell it to you unless its worth their while and making some money. Getting them down 3.5k is just cutting into their profit margin. No doubt it was a very good price though.

Actually Spidz a car retailer wil lsell a car at a loss if it means getting the bonus.

thats true obes, but they have to cover the difference out of their own pocket.

I had a sit in the WRP10 at the Motorshow, it was really uninspiring, and I normally quite like WRXs, the RX8s might not be as fast, but they sure as hell are nicer, and I've heard that the lovely high rotory redline is pretty sexy :p

My dad bought a prado and at the time it was $58K brand new rrp. He ended up bargaining with the dealers and managed to buy it for $42K... I can prove it too.

So if your buying a wrx or rx8 then you should at least save 10K!

^^ I'd be pretty surpised at that Prado story Marty :) My boss just bought a new SS and Holden are having a runout on 2004 plated vehicles where they're 'paying' the stamp duty, rego etc. I think the retail (plus onroads) for an SS is about $52k and he managed to get it for $48k driveaway.

I also depends on the sort of vehicle - if it's a garden type variety holden commodore they sell shirtloads of them and there's heaps of Holden dealers around to shop the price around. ie, the chances of getting a good deal are pretty high. In the case of other vehicles which are in more limited production there's generally not as much incentive for them to move too far on the price if they're selling as many as they're producing.

i know it sounds far fetched so I double checked the details and there it was on the invoice $42K and they were at the time in the high 50's...

Come over my place (not that you'd want to) and I prove it!

RX8's are nice and look kinda retro-ish.
RX8 > WRX.

Walk dwon the street and I'll still watch an RX8 go past cause of their nice curves, I wouldn't even notice a WRX if it was about to hit me.

last edited by Loki at 15:31:55 28/Feb/05

yeah RX8's look soo sweet but for that money I'd rather get a nice convertible Saab or something... More classy.

I bundle convertibles with 4WD's that never see offroad.
Wouldn't look twice at one of them either :P

Saw a sweet looking evo today, then realised it was a lancer with an evo bar and spoiler.

exactly... why try to look good when it is really s*** :/

Saw a sweet looking evo today, then realised it was a lancer with an evo bar and spoiler.

That pisses me off too, the evo is such a good car. I cant stand those wankers who spend up to, and including $20-30k on their standard lancer to make it 'look' like an evo, when they could of probably baught a near-new one for that price.. morons

I drove my mates Ford V8 UTE.... f***ing goes Hard!!!

^^ No it doesnt.

No road legal car goes hard. Get a bike up ya

last edited by Vash at 19:32:49 28/Feb/05

And you'd know skitza?

Goes harder than my Astra neway :)

As much as bikes are cool. I wont ride one for the simple fact they're far to dangerous. You maybe a good rider, but that doesn't stop cars from hitting you etc. But yeah can't beat a bike!

But yeah can't beat a bike!

unless u want to transport anything or anyones, or stay dry in the rain, or even if you dont want to own a pulsar gti-r

cant stand those wankers who spend up to, and including $20-30k on their standard lancer to make it 'look' like an evo, when they could of probably baught a near-new one for that price.. morons

I really, really, really doubt they spend anywhere f***ing near that much cash making their lancer look like an evo.

For $20-30k you could buy an evo and move all the evo kit bits over to the standard lancer, makes much more sense.

No road legal car goes hard. Get a bike up ya

Tref's LX Torry > GTR Skyline > 250cc moto :P
Plus it can do wheelstands, if that's not 'going hard enough' for a standard car for you, you're just naive =)

[edit]Fixed spelling.

last edited by Loki at 23:21:14 28/Feb/05

http://www.kinoweb.de/film98/Scream2/pix/neve.jpg

lol.

needs more tap

last edited by Paveway-3 at 23:20:48 28/Feb/05

your old rust bucket falling apart let Loki?

or has it just gone up in value like you said? probably worth about $50k by now eh?

someone said I missed the thread about you being all depressed and wanting to kill yourself, nawww, we getting into attention seeking on forums these days?

Yeah car has a small ding in the front through no fault of my own that I can't be f***ed fixing cause I'm busy pulling apart a spare v8 and putting it in, which reminds me, still waiting on rarespares to get a part in for me so I can actually put it together.
Go faster bits before silly aesthetic problems.

last edited by Loki at 01:25:52 02/Mar/05

loki you should put a gtr engine in your torona, it would go fully siik i swear.

Hi Suhaib!

Nah got a 308 v8 and Turbo 350 here at home in the back yard at the moment.

Then money is going towards overseas trip at the end of the year.

last edited by Loki at 01:41:47 02/Mar/05

Looks like the car goes well... with the 2 bins in the background.

Hahaha yeah it was taken down across the road from the local bowls club, in front of the building that St. Johns meets in actually.

The 6 cyl doesnt go well at all, it's like pushing a house brick with a jam donut, it just doesn't work very well.