This is the sort of person im looking for.

You breathe technology. You love programming. Taking a bath or meeting chicks (or guys) are a distant second to getting up to your nuts in programming guts.

I need someone urgently who knows:

1. PHP/MySQL
- OO, CSS, AJAX, HTML(duh)
2. Experience in working with cross-cultural groups
- working with a development team based in China (you are in Brisbane)
3. Preference given to Chinese speakers (Mandarin)
4. Experience in writing documentation
- for your programming and technical specifications
5. SysAdmin work (Linux/Win2K3/cPanel/WHM/DNS/mail/Exchange)
6. PA for the CTO (me)

Ideally it would be someone who has a bit of maturity under their belt and can work unsupervised. I'd love to see someone with a degree (not necessarily IT related)or TAFE quals. You can read, write and speak well in English.

The job is to start straight away. A lot of potential for this position for the right person. Fortitude Valley, immediate start. Pay somewhere between $30k - $40k

Email me on andrew@siteoutsource.com

programming gold farming bots?

work with a dev team based in china, get paid like ur part of a dev team based in china... sounds awesome!

so dont apply if you don't like the look of it.

According to Xyzzy, who just graduated, he's been getting jobs thrown at him* that start at the $50k mark, and go all the way up to $62k (that's the one he just accepted). According to his recruiter, that's a little better than Brisbane's average for graduates who have any talent.

*He wasn't even looking for jobs. He graduated and his job network people passed his crappy 2 year old resume around to a few places and they spammed him.

Hi harl

Dude, that is a bit weak considering you're asking for graduates and we're in the middle of an IT skills shortage... but good luck to you finding someone.

According to Xyzzy, who just graduated, he's been getting jobs thrown at him* that start at the $50k mark, and go all the way up to $62k (that's the one he just accepted). According to his recruiter, that's a little better than Brisbane's average for graduates who have any talent.

Xyzzy is one of those guys who probably graduated with a GPA of 6.5 and his masters though.

According to Xyzzy, who just graduated, he's been getting jobs thrown at him* that start at the $50k mark, and go all the way up to $62k (that's the one he just accepted). According to his recruiter, that's a little better than Brisbane's average for graduates who have any talent.

Wouldn't be surprising. First few months working here I kept getting calls offering me jobs I hadn't applied for.
Considering what we have to pay $50k for (ie, such low grade), anyone who's half decent can easily graduate on mid 60s.

Wouldn't be surprising. First few months working here I kept getting calls offering me jobs I hadn't applied for.
Considering what we have to pay $50k for (ie, such low grade), anyone who's half decent can easily graduate on mid 60s.

doing what?

mid 60s, i call bulls*** (unless you're a dentist).

so do i

i aint seen any graduates in IT making that sort of coin

man, im working in a call centre, only been there less than a year and im on 49k

sounds like most entry level IT jobs really are a tight squeeze (until you work your way up i guess)

which call centre are you working in?

and does anyone work in a UNISYS call centre?

lol! i remember having to call unisys help desk once and i spoke to some crazy bitch in texas

man, im working in a call centre, only been there less than a year and im on 49k

Yeah, but where do you head from there?

call centres are big business these days. managers responsible for large centres are practically executives, take home 100k+ easy. would suck climbing the ladder though, i work part time in a call centre while studying and i swear i die a little inside every time i go to work

Well I stand corrected then.

Still, sounds like pretty miserable work.

Well my little brother in Syd is earning up around the 60k mark and he hasn't even graduated, he is finishing the last two subjects part time, worked for this mob through some student placement thingo in the uni hols and they took him on full time, doing hte same stuff, programming - he started on 35K and within a year they've virtually doubled his salary because he was getting offers elsewhere of the same sort coin...

that is in Sydney though, so nfi what the brissy market is doing.

that is in Sydney though, so nfi what the brissy market is doing.

pretty similar I'd say.

mid 60s, i call bulls*** (unless you're a dentist).

Well my friend is on $54k after 3 mths at her job (IT) and her degree isnt even in IT. Go figure. Mid 60's sounds realistic for the right people in the right jobs straight outta uni.

yeah, well i earn £55/hr contracting :P

Yeah but how much is your rent?

Times are a changing.

IT skills shortage? WTF??

i read there was a huge drop in people learning IT this year. like wtf.

^That's good for me. Lower OP cut off so I can slack off some more.

^That's good for me. Lower OP cut off so I can slack off some more.

And then fail your uni subjects, waste your money and drop out. I like your thinking

oh good so in 3 years I might get my big break

man, working for harl would totally outweigh the less $$$ you'd make at another place.

he's a dreamboat of stamos proportions.

he gives head?

even better than you, strange.

meeting chicks (or guys) are a distant second

good luck with that one

I agree with what others are saying - think given the unemployment rate if you're actually looking for someone reasonable you need to be offering $40-$50k. If I was a grad programmer and I knew I was reasonable, I would be hunting around until I got something around $45-$50k, and quite frankly I wouldn't have to wait that long either from what I've been hearing.

well lets read between the lines.

1. Small startup company, already established OS.
- Lots of potential to move up the chain
2. You can speak Mandarin.
- potentially so down the track you are in charge of developers?
3. OS development team.
- not guaranteed, but i reckon you have a better chance of getting travel out of this position that working at a Shell servo or Tel$tra call centre.
4. I need good people, and they will be rewarded as such.
- yes, small starting salary, but i can guarantee if you are worth it, you will be paid more.

Unfortunately it seems the mix of people replying to this thread (yes, gross generalisations) are either:
1. Still in (high)school.
2. Professionals who have a job
3. People who dont have a job, and whinge why they dont have a job
4. Aren't seeing the bigger picture.

IF you dont fall into one of those categories, my apologies i must have misinterpreted your attitude.

And yes, im rad to work for/with.

And yes, im rad to work for/with.

I can vouch for that. I worked with harl for several years and it was a s*** tonne of fun.

The money on offer for a grad in this position isn't bad, although its not high and won't probably attract the cream. That said, your first placement after University is NOT - I f***ing repeat NOT - about the money on offer.

If you have a good result from Uni you need to cement it with the right placement - your first job should be about gaining professional experience in the field that you want to be an expert in. Taking on a big contract / package straight out of uni could actually be detrimental to your development - if you get in too deep you end up with a blemish on your resume rather than positive experience.

As long as the money is enough to meet your living needs, you should be looking at what experience and skills it will be adding to your resume. Your graduate placement is almost always not going to be the company you get your professional placement with - if I was doing it again I would trade 10k easily for some company-sponsored certs.

Once you've been working for a few years recruiters and HR staff won't give a hoot that you smashed the System Analysis & Design course at uni - I'm going through some of this stuff now and I was told to literally remove the coursework / results from my CV as they weren't relevant now that I was (apparently) a pro! They want to know what projects you worked on, what technology you consider yourself to be a master of, the certifications (if any) you gained and importantly how many goals you kicked and why!

Uni -> grad position (experience, certifications, development) -> professional placement ($).

/breathe

last edited by Hogfather at 09:40:00 15/Aug/07

great post hogfather

also, harl gets my personal seal of approval as well. He won't ride you too hard. Except, well, maybe in some ways.

Thats exactally the reason I have stayed on at Logan instead of going to the Private sector. I was actually offered an extra 12k/pa for a Private sector job, which was *really* hard to turn down.

In the end though at Logan i'll get my Cadastral Licence + Heaps of different courses they pay for (Advanced 12D workshops and the like) Also because the council is involved in so many different things I get to work in heaps of different environments with different gear/tolerances and techniques.
So in the end, after a good slog at Logan, I can ask for twice as much somewhere else.

For that extra 12k I would either be an Engineering Surveyor Monkey (Just doing DTM's and Setouts) or just Cadastral work. Losing heaps of the knowledge i'd gain elsewhere.

On top of that, I also work/coordinate with the people that use my data so I can see where it's going and what it's doing. Private i'd just be a link in a chain and not know about whats going on either side.

Go to QUT, in my last semester, I'm a golden-key society butt plug, doing IT management major, suck at programming, have some skill in ASP.net web development :) job please

Xyzzy is one of those guys who probably graduated with a GPA of 6.5 and his masters though.

Nope. 5.5 and honours.

mid 60s, i call bulls*** (unless you're a dentist)

Mmmmm dentists, licks teeth

The market really must have turned, 3 years ago when i was looking for a job there were none going in IT unless you were on the deans list or had a friend on the inside, and people were going nuts for jobs paying 45+starting.

Also hogfather summed it up spot on.

The market really has turned. As a new IT grad, I had to turn down jobs paying 70+ for jobs paying closer to six digits. But then again, I have a disgusting GPA and I really know how to suck butthole to get where I am.

what sort of IT work n-dude?

i wanna know what field i should be in rather than lowly perl programming

Xyzzy is one of those guys who probably graduated with a GPA of 6.5 and his masters though.

Honours II.A

mid 60s, i call bulls*** (unless you're a dentist).

I graduated mid-last year and started work late last year I started on mid 50’s, and quickly moved into mid 60’s. I’m now just shy of 70k p/a.

Of course I'm not in configuration or support.

u r my earnings bitch then typo

My title is Software Design Engineer, working mainly in the .nets. Of course, I have practically no experience in any of the .NET products, but apparently, that doesn't matter. Sweet.

:(
windows programmer

your first job should be about gaining professional experience in the field that you want to be an expert in.

Sure, and generally speaking graduate positions that offer the most professional experience pay the least because they know that they are compensating you with more than just money, they are setting yourself up for a career.

However, you’d have to be a pretty stupid dickwad to accept a position that paid low and wasn’t really going to expand skills that are career making when there are so many out there.

Taking on a big contract / package straight out of uni could actually be detrimental to your development - if you get in too deep you end up with a blemish on your resume rather than positive experience.

I didn’t mean to suggest that graduates should just suck up and take big, Big BIG jobs that they are not qualified in. As that is only going to lead to failure. However, there are graduate positions that are offering $45k – $55k p/a. In fact, if you’re that much of a ninja, you can get $65k for a graduate position.

Once you've been working for a few years recruiters and HR staff won't give a hoot that you smashed the System Analysis & Design course at uni - I'm going through some of this stuff now and I was told to literally remove the coursework / results from my CV as they weren't relevant now that I was (apparently) a pro!

Unless you’re an IT virgin, I don’t see why you’d put your grades on (or attached with) your CV, unless specifically asked by your potential employer. Unless it’s actively a part of your qualification (like honours class). Sure, take them along if your going for graduate positions – because they might want them – but a CV is an awful thing to waste space on …

They want to know what projects you worked on, what technology you consider yourself to be a master of, the certifications (if any) you gained and importantly how many goals you kicked and why!

The point of a CV is pretty much exactly what the name means, the course of life. Obviously, specific to your working life, because quite frankly nobody cares about your highest quake score.

As such, it should essentially tell a story of who you are, why you’re f***ing awesome, and what awesome things you can provide your potential new employer. If you’re CV doesn’t do that, then you need to keep working at it.

Unless you’re an IT virgin, I don’t see why you’d put your grades on (or attached with) your CV, unless specifically asked by your potential employer.

Having just gone through a hiring process, I can state that it would have made my job much easier if some graduates had in fact done exactly this - if only so I could see that they'd done (x) number of programming subjects and done decently in them so I knew they had some aptitude at programming.

During the interview it became clearly obvious that the subject didn't really have the sort of programming experience that we wanted. They had a degree, but they clearly either skipped programming subjects or scraped by or just did beginner ones, because their general programming knowledge was relatively poor.

This is sort of really only relevant for new grads - if you've had work experience I'd definitely ditch the above and focus on your work experience, but if you haven't and you're going for an entry level position, I'd be inclined to suggest adding some more details about courses you particularly excelled in.

It's a f***ing fine line to tread - you don't want to go too light on detail but you don't want to deluge employers with too much data. Obviously each prospective employer is going to have different ideas on what is "perfect" for them so I guess just try to find the best balance you can.

In a graduate position, unless you have gotten off your arse and done some industry xp during study, then grades are the only thing that can be used to differentiate.

The farther from graduation, the more ireelevant they become.

I've been working in IT for eleventy billion years, and earn a 16 and a half figure salary, and I fly a jetbike to work every day.

lol IT

As such, it should essentially tell a story of who you are, why you’re f***ing awesome, and what awesome things you can provide your potential new employer. If you’re CV doesn’t do that, then you need to keep working at it.

Funny you say that; the recruitment agency I went through for the contract I'm looking at specifically told me that too many IT resumes read like stories - mine included!

Her advice was that a good professional resume is as matter of fact as possible, essentially a point form / matrix of the skills and experience you have - you don't know who is reading the resume and you have no opportunity to evaluate responses to what you are saying, or to work out what they are looking for. If you have the right skills and experience you will get a chance in person to display how super duper you are.

The other thing that struck me as odd (but made sense) was to remove details of referees from the printed CV, noting only that they are available on request. Your referees should only be contacted (read: annoyed) during the final stage of evaluation of your application. This gives you the chance to contact your referees to confirm that they can take the call, as well as warn them that the call is coming.

If you go for 10 jobs and all 10 contact your referees, they might ask to be taken off your CV...

last edited by Hogfather at 21:14:55 16/Aug/07

Oh and yeh; I was until quite recently pretty nubified in what is required in a CV - hence not knowing to drop the subjects etc. I've worked at the same place for four years out of Uni and never needed one!

nobody cares about your highest quake score.

it's good practice, don't you know Crysis is out soon ? :)

also, interesting point - the last jobs we had up, I've had 3 recruiters call me in the last 2 weeks offering some of the people they're representing. It's sort of interesting, cuz it implies they're having problems placing people either because a) jobs are getting snapped up really quickly or b) there's maybe not that much work out there?

Having just gone through a hiring process, I can state that it would have made my job much easier if some graduates had in fact done exactly this - if only so I could see that they'd done (x) number of programming subjects and done decently in them so I knew they had some aptitude at programming.

I don’t understand why you commented against my post, considering I specifically mention two cases that you should include your grades: You don’t have any real IT experience and you’ve been specifically asked by your potential employer.

When I’ve been asked to sit on hiring panels for graduates I’ve always suggested that students bring a copy of their academic transcript. Because, chances are, they are IT virgins, their only provable skill set is their academic record.

I’d suggest that next time you plan on looking at hiring a graduate, or near graduate, that you ask for a copy of their academic transcript along with their CV.

During the interview it became clearly obvious that the subject didn't really have the sort of programming experience that we wanted. They had a degree, but they clearly either skipped programming subjects or scraped by or just did beginner ones, because their general programming knowledge was relatively poor.

I agree, the amount of graduates that go through University and choose essentially and IT degree majoring in basket weaving terrifies me. Some of the UQ IT graduates did more Multimedia subjects, which quite frankly retards can pass, than they did computer science subjects.

---

Her advice was that a good professional resume is as matter of fact as possible, essentially a point form / matrix of the skills and experience you have

I believe that point form/matrixs are not good to send to employers, but are great for recruiters. Recruiters don’t care if you can actually do anything, they are trying to match the specifications given to them by their client.

When I realised that, I made two resumes, one to target each element of my recruitment process. The first is aimed at recruiters, which is a single line dot point of all of my skills, with key words highlighted. The second, aimed at employers, is in much greater detail and tells a story.

Before I got my first job after graduating my resume was exactly that, a point form/matrix. I didn’t get a lot of action from it because nobody had any idea of what I can actually do in a Business Environment. I didn’t even get a lot of initial interviews at recruiters.

5 minutes after submitting my first application with my new style I was getting phone calls. I still get phone calls for positions I applied for last year that the guys can’t fill.

you don't know who is reading the resume and you have no opportunity to evaluate responses to what you are saying, or to work out what they are looking for. If you have the right skills and experience you will get a chance in person to display how super duper you are.

That’s actually why I describe what I can and can’t do when I’m describing my previous experience and skill set.

also, interesting point - the last jobs we had up, I've had 3 recruiters call me in the last 2 weeks offering some of the people they're representing. It's sort of interesting, cuz it implies they're having problems placing people either because a) jobs are getting snapped up really quickly or b) there's maybe not that much work out there?

It can also mean that the contractor is talking to multiple agencies at the same time, and they want to get contractor on their pay roll system.

Xyzzy’s recruiter was pumping him for information on his fellow graduates to see if there was anybody else they can get because it’s hard to find people with any kind of skill set.

I believe that point form/matrixs are not good to send to employers, but are great for recruiters.

If I get a resume without a skill listing of some sort whether it be dot points, or a matrix, it goes straight in the bin.

I agree, the amount of graduates that go through University and choose essentially and IT degree majoring in basket weaving terrifies me. Some of the UQ IT graduates did more Multimedia subjects, which quite frankly retards can pass, than they did computer science subjects

I'm not trying to be funny or anything but there is a lot more to I.T (degree) than programming. Project Management and Software Engineering for example don't even touch programming, they are more about designing the systems and making them run smoothly both through development and the running of the software. Programming is a very small part of the big picture. I actually did more programming with my engineering degree (microelectronics). I only did the dual degree to get the project management skills from I.T because I knew they would give me the edge when I had to get a job. I not only can program a job but can do the whole design process too. Most of the good programmers are self taught I have found, the degree is just to make it official.

Btw, an industry which I didn't know about until I went for a job that is in desperate need of quality programming and system designers is the high end automation market (AMX). You probably see the touchpanels at uni controlling the theatres, well that is the basic s***. You are away from the generic IT field and get to have a lot of fun with cool toys, and if you are into graphics design you get to rip that up aswell.

I believe that point form/matrixs are not good to send to employers, but are great for recruiters. Recruiters don’t care if you can actually do anything, they are trying to match the specifications given to them by their client.

Personally I have a mix of the two styles i.e. the first few pages are skills matrix listing, and the rest of the pages are the (brief) work history and the usual spiels. I generally keep the spiels pretty short, usually 2-3 paragraphs basically just an executive summary of responsibilities I have in my previous jobs.

Seems to work great, suit both recruiters and employers just fine. Your mileage will vary though.

I actually did more programming with my engineering degree (microelectronics).

Engineers are, from what I can tell, given better training in programming than people in IT. My mate works at QR - their software department ONLY hires engineers as a matter of policy.

I don’t understand why you commented against my post, considering I specifically mention two cases that you should include your grades

I don't understand why you think I'm commenting against your post; I clearly quoted the one part of your post that I was referring to.

I’d suggest that next time you plan on looking at hiring a graduate, or near graduate, that you ask for a copy of their academic transcript along with their CV.

Shrug, I wouldn't really find that as useful as seeing a couple lines showing the highlights. I know my academic is thoroughly unimpressive for IT employeers in my first year (where I did mostly biology and psychology and failed a couple subjects). The last couple years I got sixes and sevens for all the interesting later-year IT subjects.

Engineers are, from what I can tell, given better training in programming than people in IT. My mate works at QR - their software department ONLY hires engineers as a matter of policy.

It would depend on your specialty. Taking the natural assumption that you mean "Software Engineers" then a well put together IT degree with honours at UQ is pretty much even stevens with a software engineering degree. The subjects are identical. Microelectronic engineering should be slightly worse as they have to spend all of those other subjects doing electronic things (though admittedly the electronics intro subject at UQ is something that any IT person should do anyway and there's another subject which seems very micro-electronic but is actually "Writing drivers in real time OSes 101").

My housemate's sister who does (iirc) chemical engineering would be a very bad choice for a coding job since i think my mother knows about as much as she does.

The main problem with IT is that you have a serious amount of electives and, at least at UQ, very little in the way of standardisation (read: majors/streams/whatever) as to what to take.

Project Management and Software Engineering for example don't even touch programming

Would you be happy putting your life in the hands of a Neurologist that only barely managed to scrape through his chemisty 101 stuff and really doesn't understand it. Sure he's probably NEVER gonna need it... but if he sucked at something so fundamental what else does he suck at?

If I get a resume without a skill listing of some sort whether it be dot points, or a matrix, it goes straight in the bin.

I don’t think I said that either of my resumes failed to come with skill listings. I said dot points and matrixs are a s***ty way of informing people of what you can do.

Sure, if you’re employing a Support, Administration or a Configuration guy you can probably work out what their skill/talent level is just looking at what kind of systems they’ve worked on. It gets much harder as you move into different areas.

If you applied for a job that worked with me and only offered me dot points or a skills matrix I’d throw your resume in the bin too.

I'm not trying to be funny or anything but there is a lot more to I.T (degree) than programming. Project Management and Software Engineering for example don't even touch programming, they are more about designing the systems and making them run smoothly both through development and the running of the software.

Can you deny that a ‘designer’ or a ‘project manager’ would be worse off for having a university level understanding of programming?

The problem with not having any decent understanding of programming means that the IT guy is limited in his understanding of how the application/system actually works, he is always limited in using prefabricated tools and he is unable to create prototypes of systems/applications without the help of someone else who can actually code.

Not only that, I never said that an IT student should only focus in programming. There’s nothing stopping an IT student from studying design or project management subjects and computer science subjects. In fact, they’d be weakening themselves to only focus on programming subjects. However, coming out of an IT degree with only soft skills, will make progression very, very difficult.

I’m an Interaction Designer/Usability Specialists and I’m doing more and more Business Analyst stuff every day. The fact that makes me so valuable in the business place is not only do I have, apparently, rare design and analyst skills, but I also have a very technical background. I can understand what my customers want, what the end users need and how to translate that to programmers.

You probably see the touchpanels at uni controlling the theatres, well that is the basic s***. You are away from the generic IT field and get to have a lot of fun with cool toys, and if you are into graphics design you get to rip that up aswell.

Interactive Kiosks are child’s play. f***, the APIs are so advanced that if you’re using a modern mobile (or ultra-mobile) computer and an off the shelf touch-screen retards can do impressive stuff with it. It starts getting interesting when you start building multi-touch display screens, but still … it’s 50/50.

The true cool stuff is ubiquitous and physical computing. :)

Engineers are, from what I can tell, given better training in programming than people in IT. My mate works at QR - their software department ONLY hires engineers as a matter of policy.

I really wouldn’t use QR as a measure of standard when it comes to their application programmers.

What kind of Engineering student? When I studied IT, Electrical Engineering students did two programming subjects, Introduction to Programming, and Computer Networks I. Chemical Engineers don’t really do programming, unless you count their stats programs. Even Software Engineers don’t really get better training, they get a more formal training. IT students who study for 4 years can do every single SE subject if they so desire it.

Shrug, I wouldn't really find that as useful as seeing a couple lines showing the highlights. I know my academic is thoroughly unimpressive for IT employeers in my first year (where I did mostly biology and psychology and failed a couple subjects). The last couple years I got sixes and sevens for all the interesting later-year IT subjects.

Would you be applying for a graduate level position? Do you have provable skills that are definable outside of your degree? Would you even be required to talk about your degree if you were looking for a gig somewhere else?

If you applied for a job that worked with me and only offered me dot points or a skills matrix I’d throw your resume in the bin too.

I'm not sure where you got the only bit from typo - possibly you misinterpreted me saying 'essentially' a point form / matrix with 'only'. You seem a bit fixated on it though so I will give you the outline of the CV I submitted (that won the contract):

Page 1 - Contact Details, Certs, Skills Matrix.
Page 2 - To the point explanation of the working environment of my graduate position, significant projects that I worked on. Avoid qualitative or subjective descriptions where possible.

The point being that the person doing the initial selection the chaff with a quick look at page 1, without needing to read your life story. Its a s***ty way to give someone the complete picture of your talents, but your CV is ONLY a tool to get you an interview.

Clearly a lot of this is opinion. Yours probably is different, but I'm just relating my own recent experiences with this, not trying to convert you to my new Skills Matrix religion.

Although anyone interested send me a PM. Tithes are low low low.

Programming might be a small part of the "over all project" for an IT grad, and it's good knowing the higher up processes, but if you think you're going to get a job because you failed programming 1 and 2, but got a 7 in project management and SE1 going for a PHP programming job you're kidding your self.

I'm not sure where you got the only bit from typo - possibly you misinterpreted me saying 'essentially' a point form / matrix with 'only'.

I’m not sure why you think I misinterpreted you when I was responding to stinky’s post. To paraphrase stinky, it appeared that he assumed that I was promoting no skill lists, when in fact I wasn’t. I’m promoting that only providing skill lists/matrix is very, limited in the information that it provides. Regrettably, the number of resumes I’ve seen that are essentially dot points make me sad in the pants.

Although, don’t get me wrong; I can imagine where your exposure to various systems could give you a pretty good overview of what kind of skill sets you have. I’d imagine that this is specifically poignant in Administration, Configuration and Support type roles – which, for the record, is the kind of roles that stinky is likely to be hiring.

However, there are many roles where a skills matrix just isn’t viable. In fact, for the kind of recruiting I’ve been involved with, it’s down right useless; there’s little value in a line that infers “very experienced in requirement gathering” (which, for the record I’ve seen). How does the guy gather those requirements? What sized projects has the applicant worked on? How does he display those requirements?

The only way to answer all of those questions in a skill matrix is to make a stupidly HUGE skill matrix that is very, very hard to display all of the information in relevant positions. Let’s just pretend that he listed focus groups, proxy users, contextual interviews, card sorting and facilitating meetings. How does he use those abilities and in what context?

All skill matrix/lists really tell you is that the candidate has a good understanding of buzzwords.

In case you missed it way back there (I know, I know, tl’dr); I’ve already stated that I send two documents for job applications; I’ll repeat it here and in more detail:

One, that I refer to as my resume, is designed really for recruiters. It’s a single page that lists the common terminology – which is highlighted - of my skills and my experience in those skills. Recruiters love it because they don’t have to spend any time reading, or understanding, my resume, they can just click off of the requirements given to them by potential employers. That’s important if you’re reviewing dozens of resumes a day.

The second one, which I refer to as my CV, is designed for people who are actually going to hire me. It currently sits at about 4 pages and includes two major areas; descriptions of what my key skills are and what kind of experiences I’ve had with those areas; and descriptions of what positions I’ve held and what kind of duties I have been required to do within those roles. Employers love it, because they have a very clear understanding of what I can, and can not, do.

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Programming might be a small part of the "over all project" for an IT grad, and it's good knowing the higher up processes, but if you think you're going to get a job because you failed programming 1 and 2, but got a 7 in project management and SE1 going for a PHP programming job you're kidding your self.

Giririss is not only correct, he’s completely undervaluing the whole picture. It’s very doubtful that an IT graduate who did poorly at core programming subjects is going to get some sort of junior project manager position. Why would anybody take an IT graduate who doesn’t understand the technical aspects of IT and has minimal understanding of project management, or for that matter Business in general. Especially, when you can higher a Business school graduate who also doesn’t understand technical aspects of IT but has a much greater depth of understanding about both Project Management and the greater business world.

Let’s be frank about the high level design work too. Unless you’ve got extensive skills in some other area, or a mentor that leads you into high level design, it’s going to be very hard to design a high quality product if you don’t, at the very least, understand how to program.

It would depend on your specialty. Taking the natural assumption that you mean "Software Engineers" then a well put together IT degree with honours at UQ is pretty much even stevens with a software engineering degree.

Yep, good point - I should have said the "general IT degree". Most of the people I was in classes with were really picking the easy subjects. I met very few people in IT that were doing any hardcore programming subjects, for example.

That's because programming is GAY

also, interesting point - the last jobs we had up, I've had 3 recruiters call me in the last 2 weeks offering some of the people they're representing. It's sort of interesting, cuz it implies they're having problems placing people either because a) jobs are getting snapped up really quickly or b) there's maybe not that much work out there?

No, it implies, that recruiters get paid for finding people jobs.

Yep, good point - I should have said the "general IT degree". Most of the people I was in classes with were really picking the easy subjects. I met very few people in IT that were doing any hardcore programming subjects, for example

**cough** information systems **cough**

also, interesting point - the last jobs we had up, I've had 3 recruiters call me in the last 2 weeks offering some of the people they're representing. It's sort of interesting, cuz it implies they're having problems placing people either because a) jobs are getting snapped up really quickly or b) there's maybe not that much work out there?

No, it implies, that recruiters get paid for finding people jobs.

They get paid an assload, some places charge upto 15/20% of the first years salary. And when you consider that they're not finding people for the job, they're throwing square objects into round holes, it's a little over the top.

They get paid an assload, some places charge upto 15/20% of the first years salary. And when you consider that they're not finding people for the job, they're throwing square objects into round holes, it's a little over the top.

If they are throwing square pegs into round holes then it generally comes down to the applicant writing a resume that doesn't meet the recruiters requirements, and/or the employer has given the recruiter s***ty requirements.