Sorry, not a joke thread this time. I just found this vid on LiveLeak.com (previously ogrish). It looks like it was filmed by some young western visitors.

I just thought it was an interesting insight and worth sharing. I hope things get back to happy there again some day soon. Fuks me how thats going to happen though. What a mess.

oh wow so you just discovered that it was a normal country before it was invaded for its resources? bravo to you

Iraq before the war

...was still a s***hole.

Dictatorships are ok.

i hear saddam had weekly tea parties with orphans

what a guy

Nah, I dont think he was. But the Iraq's seemed to make the most of what they had regardless.

infi ... are you that pathetic you believe the US or even Australia went there to free the people ? America has supported more then a few dictators in the past (just not the communist ones ... omg panic .. reds! ). The cover story was WMDs, freedom only came in after they realised WMDs wasn't gunna cut it.

We (the US led block block) supported Saddam after he used gas on the khurds, but back then he was a good arab supplying the oil and going to war with the crazy Iranians.

Seriously do you believe the Iraqis are better off today then they were with their crazy nutbad dictator ?

The US went in there to win a war but had no exit strategy for when they did win it.

So I take it you support dictatorships?

tbh I don't care what their cover for deposing Saddam was, one less dictator is a good thing.

and apparently, once the US leaves it will all be sweetness and light.

the hardest part of this war for me to terms with is that i know religion and language play the biggest factor in some peoples acceptance of the war. if iraq was christian, and maybe english speaking; the redneck populus of america who voted for bush wouldn't go for a war. especially on the terms and evidence put forth. any reasonable person looking at all the facts objectivley, will conclude the war was a load of royal bulls***. everything about it. so therefore agression (which would have to be there to be a war) would have to be motivated by intolerance.

So I take it you support dictatorships?

for f***s sake, you clearly can't see that hes pointing out the irony of how america can support some dictators and then use others as a selling point for war. how can you not see that? seriously? are you in a coma?

tbh I don't care what their cover for deposing Saddam was, one less dictator is a good thing.

do you actually know how many people died to make this "good thing" happen?

and apparently, once the US leaves it will all be sweetness and light.

stupid.

As a general principle, if faced with a number of menacing dictatorships of course you're going to target the one that has the highest profit, either in terms of actual resources or more generally in terms of protection of the national interest

the cold, hard, unyielding force of capitalism underlies everything we do, yes even wars - why this continues to disappoint or even surprise people is beyond me

forget about the f***ing history of whether saddam was the product of the US or not. what has this got to do with improving the lives of today's iraqis? think about right here right now with saddam in charge. was it a good thing? no. did he have to go? yes.

by the logic of those supporting the idyllic state of pre-war iraq, they would also support pre-ww2 nazi germany. would an invasion of germany been justified on its persecutiuon of jews alone, or if they had started extermination camps prior to war breaking out. i would argue yes.

there were enormous human rights atrocities occurring under the saddam regime and iraqis don't deserve that. they deserve to live in a country that is politically free and open.

the teething on the path to democracy (i.e. IEDs on every corner, iraqi's blowing up their own people) is the result of the power vaccum created by saddam's removal. a brutal tyrant tends to keep all these seething undercurrents of hatred at bay. this situation is completely comparable to the breakdown of former yugoslavia where mass genocide occured during the civil war that eventuated on the pathway to independence. NATO was barely visible in Yugoslavia and 100,000's died there too.

is democracy in iraq a bad thing? what is the price one puts on democracy?

what is the price one puts on democracy?

About a trillion tons of crude...

Seriously infi just shut the f*** up already. You have Nof***ingIdea of what every day people are going through over there at the moment and even if you did you still wouldn't give a f***. All you seem to mention post after post in regards to this topic are things like "democracy", "US are here to free the people", "our way of life is the only way of life", "when US leave they'll blow themselves up even more", "they even strap children to missiles", "i'm such a f***ing cocktard i almost chocked on a pretzel for the freedom of the world" and other bush-like one liners that you seem to cling on to from bush presidential speeches. Get off your high hours already and get f***ed.

If you care about the people of iraq so much why dont you go live there for a few months to see what they're going through and tell me if all of this bulls*** will somehow be for the good of the people and it's country? I'm telling you i've been there before and after this sad state of affairs and experienced it with my own eyes. Even if you're the average moe blow you dont have to be the most politically savy person to realise how truley f***ed up the situation is, especially when you dont even know whether or not you'll live to see next day sitting in your own home. Forget about food, water, electricity, petrol, gas (and dont even f***ing mention entertainment), and if there is no SECURITY then all that s*** goes out the door anyway, so what is even the point of living if you're too afraid to even walk out your front door? what kind of s***ty forsaken post 9/11 life is that? so it's the entire's country's fault now because the twin towers went down?.. oh wait... it's not even about that anymore, it's about "sadam threatning the freedom of the world with WMDS"... ok so now it's the entire country's fault because of one man.... but wait, we couldn't find any WMD's because they were all destroyed during the gulf war...quick think of something before we put put on that stupid look!! yeah we'll say he's got a "WMD program hidden in a burka", but the UN looked even there and still couldn't find any....we'll just say "sadam is being a very bad man to his people and we'll have to set them free because we're such good natured people". Yeah that's the one. Get f***ed.

How the f*** can you not say it was better for Iraq and the iraqi people when sadam was in power? were you there during and after his Regime? you know what if you took bush's cock out of your mouth for a second you'd be able to notice that you dont even need to be there to realise how much more truely f***ed up it is now after the US libirated invaded iraq. And yes i still call it a regime because he was such a c*** to his people and his neighbouring countries. Nevertheless the situation was no where near as complex and as messed up as it is now. Did you know that a student was recently shot dead at my wife's uni (while she was on campus) and somehow he/them whoever it was got away with it? no obviously you dont know because you believe whatever the f*** is going on there will somehow fix itself in the long run because you're helping us fight for democracy. So how much blood should be shed until one day true democracy is established in iraq? you think i would honestly give a f*** about your f***ing "democracy" in iraq if it was my wife who got shot instead? what would she have died for? what have all the thousands of thousands of innocent iraqies died for? democracy? do you even give a f*** if any of us died for this so called "democracy"? no, why? because our blood is cheap? yeah that's right. Get f***ed. The only people that would justify the war or say it's better now than when sadam was in power are f***ing people who have no sense of reality, s*** for brains blind clueless dumb as dog s*** pro american pro west everything, somehow justifying such injustice, such an inhumane crime for merely their own gains, no matter how irraitional/immoral/unjust their actions are.

Now if you dont give a flying f*** about the people of iraq then there's no need to pretend, just say so, cause there are a lot of people in that category and that's fine. But sitting there in the comfort of your safe home/office sprouting s*** like "The US were heaven sent to take out sadam to free the country and it's people from dictatorship so they can eat maccers just like us" and leave it at that (while innocent people are prolly getting killed there now as you speak) then you're either really really f***ing naive, or it's just too much for you to get your head around it, or you're just a f***ing racist anti-muslim/arab/middle east and your lips stink of american sausage.

One thing i know for sure is that when i read your pathetic posts such as "yeah but dictatorship is ok" in light of all bad that's happening at the moment in iraq as a result of the very same forceful, bullying, unjust, dictating, TERRORISING and MASS MURDERING beliefs and values that the bush regime indirectly upholds for their own self-interest (and those same values that you defend) just goes to show the hypocrites that you are. Makes me wonder why i even bother wasting my time with hypocrites like yourself in the first place.

Also get f***ed




last edited by Suckah-Free at 04:19:58 11/Apr/07

as long as it takes me $50 to fill up and not 70 at the end of it all i'm not complaining.

Hey i just realised does that make me a bad person? if i regard the lives of thousands of people, innocent or not, as being worth $20 a week...

Nah f***em, not my fault, I'm not there.. bring on the $20.

last edited by kr0wb4r at 02:26:02 11/Apr/07

We (the US led block block) supported Saddam after he used gas on the khurds, but back then he was a good arab supplying the oil and going to war with the crazy Iranians.

Lucky we did or we might have had to storm the desert in the 90's.

/roll eyes.

to sum up Suckah-Free's post 'get f***ed'

Awesome post Suckah-Free

Man those flame grilled chicken (?) look delicious, I'm hungry now.....

Hey Suckah-Free a quick question, was Iraq during Saddam really as bad as the media made it out to be? I remembered a while ago either you or Suhaib said that it wasn't that bad as long as you stay out of his way and stuff?

you know thats what make weak pieces of s*** so pathetic.

So how much blood should be shed until one day true democracy is established in iraq? you think i would honestly give a f*** about your f***ing "democracy" in iraq if it was my wife who got shot instead? what would she have died for? what have all the thousands of thousands of innocent iraqies died for?

i would gladly die for democracy. it's important to me. when the s*** goes down here, i'll be there.

that huge diatribe of yours says nothing to address the points i raised. it's a typical selfish post of a self-concerned person, that does nothing to assess the geopolitical merits of the situation.

It's because of selfish, self concerned people that attrocities all over the world occur against helpless citizens by their rulers (and in times of civil war). Rwanda, Yugoslavia. Not in my backyard! Don't care!

I have not actually heard the anti-Iraq invasion theory summarised succinctly by then ranting mob. Is it:

If the attrocities do not go outstide a country's border, the country must not be invaded?

And I would never tell someone on here to get f***ed for expressing their opinion in good faith, so you need to grow up a bit plsk.


last edited by infi at 09:59:32 11/Apr/07

also i am not racist. i am the least racist person you'll ever meet and I have never said a racist thing in this forum. you are blind with rage.

i would gladly die for democracy. it's important to me.

So why aren't you over there fighting/dying for it if you feel so strongly? Words are cheap.

joining the army is a profession. i am in a different profession and I serve my country a different way.

I sure as hell don't bag my country or bag democracy though.

As a general principle, if faced with a number of menacing dictatorships of course you're going to target the one that has the highest profit, either in terms of actual resources or more generally in terms of protection of the national interest

the cold, hard, unyielding force of capitalism underlies everything we do, yes even wars - why this continues to disappoint or even surprise people is beyond me

What's that meme ... QFT? Yeh. That one.

it looks the same to me...

joining the army is a profession. i am in a different profession and I serve my country a different way.

Haha, whatever.

I can't tell whether you're trolling lately or just extremely naive.

infi... you are racist, but the insidious kind that isn't a caravan living red neck that shoots black folk for tresspassin, but has a job and an education. The sort that would go to a Muslim country during Ramadan (not realizing it was Ramadan) and would eat pork ribs in your boardies drinking a beer on the beach next to your topless sun baking missus declaring that its your democratic right. The sort that feels that if a particular society isn't like yours its obviously wrong and needs to be shown by any means that there is only one way to do it.

The reason there is a power vacuum as you put it, is because America and its allies created one. They quite obviously had no plan for when they won, its almost like they were expecting to roll in arrest Saddam find a nuclear stockpile and a terrorist Tafe training system run at "Baghdad High". The people would embrace the foreign power and instantly replace an entire government and public service without any help or direction.

As a result no one can argue the Iraqi standard of living is worse now then it was pre-war and it doesn't look to be improving. Again can't argue Saddam was a POS, but did he have anything to do with 911 ? doubful, anything to do with al-qaeda ? doubtful, any WMDs ? doubtful. Did the Americans support him while he was a dictator ? yup, did the Americans support him while he was committing atrocities ? yup. Have Americans committed similar atrocities since getting in to power ? yup. What was the correct response ? .. well for starters getting international support, not going in under the guise of being "a previous war" (that's how they are getting around the legalities). Using only reliable "intel" torture err I mean coerce someone for long enough and they will agree to just about anything. I have no idea what the answer to Iraq was/is but armed conflict with out international con-census was never a solution.

Go back and look at the video of the Americans stating all sort sort of things as facts relating to Iraq nukes, wmds, terrorists training camps, only to have never been found since they took control ? Bad "intel" (that's the best spin you can put on it) ? or intentionally misleading the public to justify a war they had pre-planned (that's the tin foil hat view) ?

And if you don't realize how many dictators (and other non democratic government forms) the American government has supported over the years, go do some reading (Usually their support seems to support anti-communism or oil). You'd soon come to the conclusion that freedom is not a reason for the US to do anything. And make you wonder does America make as many messes as they clean up, and there is a whole lot more they ignore (no oil or commies/terrorists). It's ok for America to admit its there for American reasons but lets not pretend there is a great humanitarian good

alright, so what now?

This is what conquering nations do they kill people and take over. If you think that humans will one day wake up and treat each other nice you are surely retarded. Violence has worked since the dawn of man and will always work. The Americans have wanted another massive base in the Middle East for ages and they will get this. They might "pull out" but they will set up a massive base and go from there. This is why they are world power and you are arguing on the net. The weak will always be picked on that is what they are here for.

all i want is for the anti-war movement to suggest the next step...

if america leaves, the country will descend into civil war, just as what happened in yugoslavia. the iraqi ethnic groups will devour each other and quite possibly genocide will occur again.

no one wants that. an article in this week's bulletin-newsweek suggests that the best way to make progress is to start reconstruction full steam, even in the face of insurgents trying to kill their own Iraqi workers.

this will create employment and put pressure on insurgents to allow the reconstruction to proceed.

I disagree with the invasion of IRAQ.. I doubted the existence of WMD from the beginning... I suspect that Saddam was a nasty little boy... and his Sons even worse...

I always suspected this was a power play for both Oil and a staging area for America to put military pressure on the middle east to play nice, the "American" way... (by having a large American force next door)

This is more then likely the Catalyst for Iran ramping up a Nuclear Bomb program... A country has the right to protect it's borders, Australia uses this excuse when they fire a boats loaded with illegals trying to pass into our waters. If Iran had a bomb, the chances of America deciding to send there tanks rolling into there country is greatly reduced. A smart move for a country fearing the worse.

I am antiwar i suppose in general, yet I find it hard not to wish someone would go into Zimbabwe and take on Mugabe and stop the atrocities going on with his blessings, nay orders :( I can;t condemn one and wish for the other :(

Yet I suspect no support will come from America for Zimbabwe until they find a economic reason (Oil etc) or strategic reason (I think they have enough armed forces in Africa already so need for a new base)

The greater good of man kind is never the reason that America does anything, and rarely is it even for the greater good of America either.

Which make me wonder just who's or what's greater good is this all for

Makes me sad :(

We need a "Rant" tag like the new "spoiler" tag :)

these threads are right up there with the religious ones lol.

I agree with the rant tag.

forget about the f***ing history of whether saddam was the product of the US or not. what has this got to do with improving the lives of today's iraqis? think about right here right now with saddam in charge. was it a good thing? no. did he have to go? yes.

your living in a delusion. havn't you noticed that saddam was NOT the silver f***ing bullet. what's happening in iraq right now with the threat of civil war is a f***ing testament to that, and you cant deny it. people argue the fact its gone from yellowcake, WMDS, liberate iraq, free iraq, his sons were badies, save their oil and economy, capture saddam, links to al-quaeda, somthing to do with pakistan and iran, insurgents, civil-war and now some more bs. how in the hell, out of that massive port folio of lies are you going to pick out the only thing that was not a lie and use it as if it was calculated move? and why would you beleive them for that matter? have you been to iraq? were you opressed by saddamn?

by the logic of those supporting the idyllic state of pre-war iraq, they would also support pre-ww2 nazi germany. would an invasion of germany been justified on its persecutiuon of jews alone, or if they had started extermination camps prior to war breaking out. i would argue yes.

"yes lets assert that people who question iraq would probably question nazi-germany too! yes! because nazi germany was a bad thing! and that makes these people very bad people! even thought its a completley different event in history, religion and politics!"

man you are so stupid. you just cant imply that. nazi germany was nothing like iraq! NOTHING! thats like saying hey, you, since you dont think that supermarket apples should have stickers on them, you probably support baby seal clubbing right?

and dont say "i would argue yes." at the end of a rhetorical question, thats just f***ing smug.

there were enormous human rights atrocities occurring under the saddam regime and iraqis don't deserve that. they deserve to live in a country that is politically free and open.

atrocities? explain that to the 600,000+ dead and their families. how the f*** isnt that an atrocity? its ten fold worse. everything is blown the f*** up, theres no economy, no infrastructure and a civil war, please enlighten me on what exactly is better after all that?

the teething on the path to democracy (i.e. IEDs on every corner, iraqi's blowing up their own people)...

the teething on the path to democracy? why do you make it sound like the deaths of thousands of people, is but an innocent, gentle teething process, a young flower blooming into adulthood! *emotive dance* a tree sprouting into existance!

IED's have nothing to do with forming a democracy.

...is the result of the power vaccum created by saddam's removal. a brutal tyrant tends to keep all these seething undercurrents of hatred at bay.

OOO, power vaccum, what? thats a new one!! so when saddam is quickly removed, theres a huge void and all the surrounding air, rushes in to fill the space! like a vaccum! but with power!! aha, i get it! IT JUST MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!

"a brutal tyrant tends to keep all these seething undercurrents of hatred at bay." - this makes no sense. sorry.

this situation is completely comparable to the breakdown of former yugoslavia where mass genocide occured during the civil war that eventuated on the pathway to independence. NATO was barely visible in Yugoslavia and 100,000's died there too.

yugoslavia? independance? iraq? YOU HAVE NO I D E A.

is democracy in iraq a bad thing? what is the price one puts on democracy?

thats rich.

infi... you are racist, but the insidious kind that isn't a caravan living red neck that shoots black folk for tresspassin, but has a job and an education. The sort that would go to a Muslim country during Ramadan (not realizing it was Ramadan) and would eat pork ribs in your boardies drinking a beer on the beach next to your topless sun baking missus declaring that its your democratic right. The sort that feels that if a particular society isn't like yours its obviously wrong and needs to be shown by any means that there is only one way to do it.

oh s***, im a racist

but im an equal oportunity racist

i had a massive steak and bbq on good friday

and i just dont care, sorry

and would eat pork ribs in your boardies drinking a beer on the beach next to your topless sun baking missus declaring that its your democratic right

hahahahahahaha thats awesome

lets do it

I'd die for democracy.

Ours, not theirs.

OOO, power vaccum, what? thats a new one!!

No, it really isn't a new one

The iraqi people are the ones setting off carbombs and chlorine bombs in marketplaces themselves, they themselves are the ones shooting and decapitating hostages by the hundreds, the americans didn't *trick* them into doing that by invading.

saddam is gone now every f***ing hack with a few guns and a koran wants a piece of the action

that and a lot of iraqis appear to be too proud (quite rightly so I would say) to even participate in a constitutional process run by americans

any disengagement by the yanks needs a proportionate re-engagement by the rest of the world (an afghan style international force would be a start) but this is very politically unpopular in many countries with the wherewithal to contribute

yugoslavia? independance? iraq? YOU HAVE NO I D E A.

well, why don't you fill us all in

i had a massive steak and bbq on good friday

The subtle difference is spook, Australia is not a christian country feel free to have your missus appear topless at an all red meat bbq on good friday at any beach you like atmost you are likely to upset the blue hair brigade on their way back from mass (and their hubbies will all be happy for the perv). We are secular, and not just secular by law we are extremely tolerant society even if we still won't let crusher marry his goat. Hell we let people pretend they are Jedi's for a religion.

Some countries are overtly islamic in tradition, some have islamic law. That is their law and their tradition... doesn't make it any less right or wrong, its their culture. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" St. Ambrose

That includes some democratic secular countries like Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey. You want to get in their face and be a prick about upsetting their sensibilities. At best you'll annoy locals, at worst they'd find ways to get you for indecency, causing a nuisance, disturbing the peace, drinking in public (an offence here btw) littering and whatever else seemed vaguely likely to hold water, or maybe like in Australia their version of the bra boys will beat the crap out of you.

As a result no one can argue the Iraqi standard of living is worse now then it was pre-war and it doesn't look to be improving. Again can't argue Saddam was a POS, but did he have anything to do with 911 ? doubful, anything to do with al-qaeda ? doubtful, any WMDs ? doubtful. Did the Americans support him while he was a dictator ? yup, did the Americans support him while he was committing atrocities ? yup. Have Americans committed similar atrocities since getting in to power ? yup. What was the correct response ? .. well for starters getting international support, not going in under the guise of being "a previous war" (that's how they are getting around the legalities). Using only reliable "intel" torture err I mean coerce someone for long enough and they will agree to just about anything. I have no idea what the answer to Iraq was/is but armed conflict with out international con-census was never a solution.

I got a funny one, my Grandmother from my mums side (iranian) was bombed by the iraqi's with american political backing in the Iran-Iraq war, my grandparents from my fathers side (polish) were liberated by the allied forces at the end of WWII, grandfather by the british and my grandmother by the americans

Coming from those backgrounds im fairly neutral about the US but see them as the good guys because after all they are a modern empire and just at a young age, hopefully as time goes on they'll mature and not fall over like all other empires have in the past :(

last edited by Captain America at 22:23:41 11/Apr/07

I'm not saying your racist, or that US is right/wrong... but I would like to point this out mate.

if america leaves, the country will descend into civil war, just as what happened in yugoslavia. the iraqi ethnic groups will devour each other and quite possibly genocide will occur again.

Mate, the country is already at Civil war, what would it take for the country to be at civil war that isn't happening right now?

an article in this week's bulletin-newsweek suggests that the best way to make progress is to start reconstruction full steam, even in the face of insurgents trying to kill their own Iraqi workers.

Sounds like a great plan, I wonder why it hasn't happened for the past... ohh 4 years? They've been trying to do this, what they've encountered is corruption from the US companies, and from the Iraqi government.

The insurgents kill Iraqi workers, and then blow up construction. Another big problem is that the police force/army is being infiltrated by insurgents.

Its super complex ofcourse, but you can't make those blanket statements and expect any form of credibility mate.

Bah, just drop a massive bomb on the f***in' joint and turn the whole country into a big sheet of glass. Job done .... NEXT!

Some might even argue Iraq is more a breeding ground for terrorists then when it had Saddam ?

I find it interesting that strex and infi who think the war was the right thing, admit the egg is now broken want the people who said "lets not blow humpty up (yet/by ourselves)" to be the ones that fix it.

Bah, just drop a massive bomb on the f***in' joint and turn the whole country into a big sheet of glass. Job done .... NEXT!

It'd make a very large aquarium ...
http://lesitedubrard.free.fr/Images/Whale Sharks In Okinawa Aquarium.JPG
ps. thats a real aquarium

Tho I am not sure that'd work Gengis khan did a pretty good job of wrecking the place in the 13th century but its still around today.

Stupid fark'n humans.

The iraqi people are the ones setting off carbombs and chlorine bombs in marketplaces themselves, they themselves are the ones shooting and decapitating hostages by the hundreds, the americans didn't *trick* them into doing that by invading.

firstly you have to realise that this lack of judgment vilifies the iraqi civilians, right? it sets a stage for prejudice in the form of, well, you know "good - evil", "cowboys - indians" type of thinking. right? now, this perception automatically makes normal irai's look barbaric and inhumane.. And to be f***ing brutally honest for the lesser inclined people out there (such as yourself) it makes it easier to justify killing them.

mate, american's are shooting and bombing the f*** out of them by the thousands and thousands more, don't you get that? your going to see bad things about the people, your going to hear all about suicide bombs, your going to see all the victims of the insurgents, your going to hear about all that s***, all the time, where ever you look, don't you get that? your not going to hear about the hundreds of thousands dead at the hands of america. the schools and hospitals bombed, the f***ins lies upon lies just to name a few... but im shure you have heard about it, somewhere atleast... so why do you still seem to point the finger at the iraqi people? and dont say you didnt, cause you just did.

you have a deficiency in logic. justifying this war based soley on the terms of civil and sectarian violence, is extremely naive. "iraqi people are the ones..." - don't ever start an argument off like that - they didn't do s*** to deserve what they got, ever.

saddam is gone now every f***ing hack with a few guns and a koran wants a piece of the action

f***ing hell. islam and guns have nothing to do with the mess that america has created. read a few posts earlier youll learn that a few insightful people have actually been there! their post outlines a quite different political climate than what the few transistors in your head have managed to pool together.

that and a lot of iraqis appear to be too proud (quite rightly so I would say) to even participate in a constitutional process run by americans

ask suckah-free about what most iraqi's think of the american presence. and don't f***ing go by what you like to think they think. you heard me.

Anybody who thinks Sadam and his buttbuddies are a justifiable reason for war is painfully naive. A handfull of SAS members could have taken care of him and his lackeys. The US is there for political and economic reasons. Maybe in their eyes they are justified, but who knows? In a few decades it won't matter, I'd wager China will far outweigh the US in terms of power by then.

What matters now is that innocent people (not just Iraqis, but Americans, Aussies etc) are dying for nothing. The lives lost in this conflict are the price of democracy? How the hell does that work when such a massive section of the populations of our high-and-mighty democracies were strongly opposed to the invasion? I feel pity for all those who've lost loved ones in this blood bath. I'm sorry for the pain Suckah-Free has to go through every day worrying about his wife. I'm saddenned by the thought of all those Iraqis who have lost their freedom and security over this whole thing. But anybody who thinks all this pain and suffering is worth something, or has achieved something, is sorely deluded.

There is no longer a clean way out of this mess. It's one big s*** sandwich and we're all going to have to take a bite. Those involved in the Iraq situation are now in the damage control stage. It's no longer about fixing Iraq, it's about getting the situation as stable as possible while losing the least amount of lives. There is much more blood, sweat and tears to be shed before this attrocity is over. Welcome to the Vietnam of my generation.

mate, american's are shooting and bombing the f*** out of them by the thousands and thousands more, don't you get that? your going to etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

you sure take a metric butt-ton of bleeding heart histrionics to say nothing at all - I was responding to your specific comment that there is no "power vacuum"

i think that's what you were trying to say anyway, the way you carried on it was as though you'd never heard the phrase - google should reassure you it's actually a widespread idiom

christ, it even has a wikipedia article

if you want to school me and not just win the most-f***s-in-a-sentence award, I am genuinely all ears

i never tried to justify the war or call all iraqis terrorists. read what I typed, and not what you think I typed - thanks

Spoiler:
http://icewyrm.batcave.net/images/spoiler.jpg

Gah so many posts to respond to so much lil time (damn post limiter, all against it say aye?)

Hey Suckah-Free a quick question, was Iraq during Saddam really as bad as the media made it out to be? I remembered a while ago either you or Suhaib said that it wasn't that bad as long as you stay out of his way and stuff?

Dont get me wrong, sadam was one crazy evil son of a bitch. Most despised him and it would've been a dream come true at the time seeing him degraded/imprisoned/tortured/dead. Though he was still seen as a heroic figure to some (eg some palatinians) for launching missiles targeting israel as well as his general "defiance" of the US. Nevertheless he ruled with tyranny, opression and planted fear in people's hearts just in order to have things his way. He gased the kurds, he slaughtered the shiates, he imprisoned/tortured and executed religious extremists (including sunnies) in ensuring that they couldn't even think about over throwing him. He was ruthless and took no chances. There were even members of the secret police in his ba'ath party who monitored everyone's movement and if you refused to join his ba'ath party then you would be up for questioning and interrogation and even possibly eventual impriosnment. Not to mention the invasion of kuwait. As a result of the invasion he starved his own people by allowing US sanctions to be placed upon them while he was the least affected and was still rolling in oil money. He was so much of a prick that after he was forced to retreat from kuwait he burnt down more than a billion barrels of their oil and poured millions of barrels of it into the sea killing thousands of birds. It even affected people of the persian gulf since they became infected with new diseases. What a f***ing heartless lunatic son of a bitch you might say! and i couldn't agree more.

Having said all that, i dont condone his crimes against his people and his neighbouring countries but i believe that the only way to rule a country with so many races/factions/sects/schools of thought as ONE UNITED COUNTRY - ie the republic of iraq - is with an iron fist, completely dominating everyone under one rule. Something democracy will never be able to achieve in Iraq. All democracy would do is further divide the country into fractions of fractions simply because the biggest faction/sect/race means it'll be the winning one, and that simply is not fair. It's democracy's fatal flaw and it just wont work in a country divided on so many levels as iraq, imo. How will you even divide the oil? who says you have to divide it anyway why not just keep it all and f*** the rest off? fux me but one thing i know for sure is the fact that before sadam's removal there weren't ever any mention of "i'm a sunni die shiate dogs" or "i'm a shiate die sunni wogs" or "you're a kurd you're a traitor for the americans". Look at the contrasting circumstances now, where bombs speak louder than words.

That's why I believe sadam did effectively keep the country as one and had potential to be a great leader. He wanted Iraq to be the capital of the middle east and even move on to bigger and better things. But it's this lunacy and hunger for power that ultimately lead to his demise and the total collapse of iraq's economical infrastructur with billions of dollars of debt. He didn't play it smart. He was too agressive. He could've achieved so much more for iraq and the middle east with his strong leadership, power and charisma, instead he ends up being found in a dirty hole hiding from americans as his country goes to ruins. Not quite the ending everyone was expecting. It would've been much more satisfying if he was caught by the very same people he destroyed physically and spirtually over the years. Something that they could be proud of. All they got now are a bunch of oil hungry murderous foreign f***s that they are forever in debt to because they removed a puppet of theirs that they could've easily done a long time ago. Sadam served the US a purpose against iran and was useless to them after that, but was later removed with good timing as a lame excuse to justify their invasion.

Believe it or not people still feel sympathetic towards him to til day, and i'm not neccessarily talking about his family but everyday day iraqies. That's because they considered living in sadam's times was the good ol days compared to today's situation. My cousin who's 30 at the moment, single and living in iraq told me the other day that there isn't even a point to getting married anymore because 1. there is virtually no work going around to support a family 2. why would you bother marrying anyone only having to lose them next time they're out to do their shopping? it is for reason such as the above (and many many more) that people would only dream about living their lives the way they did prior to the "war on terror" back in 2003.


last edited by Suckah-Free at 03:51:04 12/Apr/07

you sure take a metric butt-ton of bleeding heart histrionics to say nothing at all - I was responding to your specific comment that there is no "power vacuum"

i think that's what you were trying to say anyway, the way you carried on it was as though you'd never heard the phrase - google should reassure you it's actually a widespread idiom

christ, it even has a wikipedia article

Power vacuum? It’s on wiki? Do I really need to know it’s on wikipedia to understand it? So… your only problem is not my understanding of it, rather, I’m just not familiar with it? Why does it matter whether I’ve heard it before? If that’s your problem then I’m certain my points about it are still valid, right Einstein?

Let me break it down for you to what it really is. “Power vacuum” is one of those things smart people use to explain a complicated situation to dumb people by using a simple analogy. This also makes dumb people think they’re smart. See, explaining things to you in logic, or maybe even using a sarcastic undertone, coupled with your limited capacity to pick up on these things just doesn’t work; like too much water in a balloon!

Look here, this is a wikipedia definition of it (thanks for that btw) :

“A power vacuum is an expression for a political situation that can occur when a government has no identifiable central authority. The metaphor implies that, like a physical vacuum, other forces will tend to "rush in" to fill the vacuum as soon as it is created, perhaps in the form of an armed militia, military coup, warlord or dictator.”

Wow! Well gosh golly darn! Would you look at that! That’s pretty much exactly what I said about it! Who would have thought!

i think that's what you were trying to say anyway..

And since you say you don’t know what I was saying ill give you a hint; I was being sarcastic about it and remember kids, sarcasm describes something contrary to what I’m implying! Which in stupid means: I’m not really saying there is no power vacuum just that it’s a very inadequate way to describe Iraq and a very poor term to use in the first place! And I maintain that!

i never tried to justify the war or call all iraqis terrorists. read what I typed, and not what you think I typed

who said you called them terrorists, or justified the war? I didn’t say that.
You just implied it. And this is what you typed:

The iraqi people are the ones setting off carbombs and chlorine bombs in marketplaces themselves, they themselves are the ones shooting and decapitating hostages by the hundreds, the americans didn't *trick* them into doing that by invading.

Your comments speak for themselves. next time you try to smug up some corny ass response to defend s*** you say, you should think a little more about what exactly people are saying about your comments.

I was being sarcastic, patronise condescend and belittle

fixed - point taken, but the patronising is quite unnecessary - I'm not stupid, I'm just disagreeing with you

who said you called them terrorists, or justified the war? I didn’t say that.

not in those words. My original point was simply that there are iraqis killing other iraqis, and this is part of a power struggle set off by removing saddam, if you disagree or feel that it's too glib an interpretation then that is fine. somehow you got out of my post that I was vilifying the iraqi people and dismissing the large number of civilian dead when contrasted with the number of victims of terrorism. this was the basis for your rant about how I had no idea and the poor iraqi people deserve better and blah blah blah.

I’m not really saying there is no power vacuum just that it’s a very inadequate way to describe Iraq and a very poor term to use in the first place! And I maintain that!

and I maintain that it's good. sure, it isn't a perfect fit, there are other factors as well

you should think a little more about what exactly people are saying about your comments.

come on, the nuggets of actual cogent argument are hard to find between the seemingly endless "omg you're dumb lol" which comprises all your posts in this thread

Having said all that, i dont condone his crimes against his people and his neighbouring countries but i believe that the only way to rule a country with so many races/factions/sects/schools of thought as ONE UNITED COUNTRY - ie the republic of iraq - is with an iron fist, completely dominating everyone under one rule. Something democracy will never be able to achieve in Iraq. All democracy would do is further divide the country into fractions of fractions simply because the biggest faction/sect/race means it'll be the winning one, and that simply is not fair. It's democracy's fatal flaw

I agree with that statement 100%. But I believe democracy is still every person's right and it is worth trying. I doubt there was ever going to be a bloodless, warless way to progress to democracy for Iraq.

What I do appreciate is that Iraqi's didn't want some external country coming in and running their lives for them (contrast this to East Timor or Solomon Islands).

It is a s*** awful mess. There is a power vacuum and the absence of a powerful military of some sort could lend to even greater atrocities.

last edited by infi at 09:54:00 12/Apr/07

I agree with that statement 100%. But I believe democracy is still every person's right and it is worth trying. I doubt there was ever going to be a bloodless, warless way to progress to democracy for Iraq.

Which part or parts do you agree with from:

Having said all that, i dont condone his crimes against his people and his neighbouring countries but i believe that the only way to rule a country with so many races/factions/sects/schools of thought as ONE UNITED COUNTRY - ie the republic of iraq - is with an iron fist, completely dominating everyone under one rule. Something democracy will never be able to achieve in Iraq. All democracy would do is further divide the country into fractions of fractions simply because the biggest faction/sect/race means it'll be the winning one, and that simply is not fair. It's democracy's fatal flaw

Just that democracy is flawed in this case? Or that the ONLY way to rule Iraq is with an iron fist? Because if you agree with it all (100%) then it's kind of a contradiction. On the one hand you are agreeing that there is only one way to make things work (and that isn't democracy) while then going on to say democracy is worth a try?

no i agree with the concept that from a practical point of view it may seem apparent that dictatorship is the only way to run a country that is so diverse.

The concept of nationalism has only been around for a couple of hundred years and the lumping of a number of ethnicities together inside arbitrarily drawn borders can cause headaches. i.e. Former Yugoslavia.

There are equally problematic flaws with a dictatorship: who gets to be dictator and why? No courts, no accountability, no freedom of press. Is the fact that a country's factions fight and kill each other outweighed by the loss of all those freedoms?

hilarious stuff from both sides of the argument

irony ++

hah look who decided to show up.

Infi + strex + spidz = team america world poofs.

f*** yeah.

Spoiler:
who gives a f***, whats done is done

who gives a f***, whats done is done

Yeah and we'll just say the same thing after iran, syria and bankstown get invaded and be left for dead.

What a bright future we're heading to.

Still doesn't change the fact the US went in there with no plan.
And lots of other countries could have been used to plan it. Places like Indonesia, Singapore, South Africa, various slavias

But I believe democracy is still every person's right and it is worth trying

Does that mean we should invade Singapore ?
Its the democracy, you have when you don't have democracy.
It has one of the highest execution rates in the world. The government "People's Action Party" has won every election. And people were locked up for offering alternatives. eg. Said Zahari and Chia Thye Poh. Its technically a democracy but has everything you despise but dictators.

btw... in the list of countries currently under military dictatorships, you have to include Thailand and Fiji.

On a side note, what should we do about monarchies ? (more so the non constitutional ones). Or single party states ?

Does that mean we should invade Singapore ?

Find a wealth of natural resources to plunder and the cartel known as the coalition of the willing will be there dude.

Although there are larger humanitarian causes in the world right now (Democratic Republic of Congo. 3.5 million dead from violence, famine, and disease since 1998 as an example) we are not the direct cause of the problem there. Iraq is a mess now, and we should help get the country on its feet again. Given the history of the region, there is little doubt that some of its neighbors are drooling over the possibilities if we don't.

Systems of government are just that, Systems. They cannot be good or bad, a system makes no moral choices.
The people in power of those systems, however, can be good or bad and many shades in between.
A dictatorship with a crazy corrupt person in power is just as bad as a democracy with many crazy and corrupt people in power. The way in which that crazyness comes out is differnt.
Dont blame the type of government for causing atrocities, blame the people running them.

bankstown? as in nsw?

I do think a phased withdrawal of the US is in the best interests of the Middle East but none of the complainers have offered their opinions on what happens next.

can Iraq's neighbours be trusted to help enforce peace in the region?

will the UN be willing to send in a peacekeeping force?

Once the US leaves (which they will most likely do within the next 2 years given that both houses of US Parliament have accepted the 2008 timeline and the republicans will no doubt lose the next presidential elections), the sunni will be free to carry on their insurgency.

The shiites who outnumber the sunni will be free to retailiate with far greater force. The kurds will be free to declare independence. Turkey will be threatened by the Kurds and seek to deny their independence with miitary force.

It is unfortunate the Sunni boycotted the general elections as they are now unrepresented in the parliament. Perhaps if new elections were held this would help engage the Sunnis into reconciling.

There is some interesting reading in this article, How to get out of Iraq.

But I believe democracy is still every person's right and it is worth trying

Would it not be better to have that statement written as:

but I believe a stable, fair and just form of government is still every person's right and it is worth trying.

It doesn't have to be democracy, is needs to be whatever works. As has been stated before, perhaps shoving a round peg into a square hole just doesn't work. Sure give democracy a try, if it doesn't work be prepared to try something else, don't force the issue. Remember tho, that the choice of government will most likely involve the spilling of hundreds of thousands of liters of blood. So the choice shouldn't be made lightly.

well any form of stable government which delivers political freedom and human rights is preferable.

Yes infi we're complainers. We may not have a feasible solution for the mess YOU created, just as you and your coaliation of the drilling dont have anything to offer either except stay in there for some more and add more to the death statistics and the litres of blood spilt on both sides.

Only difference between us complainers and you obtainers (besides the US making a killing out of it - pun intended) is that you seem to justify all of this madness like somehow we're all suppose to succumb to the oppressing dictatorship-like invasion for the so called "democracy" while you suck us dry. Just gimme 300 spartans and i'll end this s***.

and paveway, yes bankstown in nsw.. because of all the lebos there. I was taking the piss.




last edited by Suckah-Free at 13:49:29 12/Apr/07

so what happens next? i assume most iraqis desire peace...

last edited by infi at 13:47:41 12/Apr/07

I dont really know what happens next. Bring back saddam? Wait he's dead. Bring back my wife, and i'll think about saving the rest of the world later.

People seem to think that by posting in threads and agreeing with other people they are changing the world. They are not. They are posting in threads online. The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. Being outraged online is a form of entertainment, and refreshing a thread to receive a hit of consensus packs the thrill of genuine activism without requiring any sweat.

Tycho Brahe, April 2007

Was posted by Tycho on Penny-Arcade about a different topic but seems to fit well here.

So basically Tycho is saying he is s*** hot and wanted everyone to know. Very noble.

Orly? If you say so infi! You kinda fired up mun...

I thought it more a statement about the pointlessness of internet debates. You'd be lucky to change someone's mind let alone an actual outcome.

Its amusing and entertaining and all that, just a bit futile.

yes it is entertaining. helps whittle away the hours until a more entertaining thread comes along.

i don't know about futile. i know that a lot of discussions on this and other boards have sparked me to research further into issues being discussed. if people's awareness of subject has been increased by a discussion, that can only be a good thing.

Wait he's dead. Bring back my wife, and i'll think about saving the rest of the world later.

wait so you went over and married a chick you have known for 5 minutes and didn't even bring her back with you? nice.

The only difference between now and before is that (most) of the people getting killed aren't raped and tortured first. surely that's some solace?

Hogfather...

Ignorance, not knowing whats going on, is when and how democracy fails.

Discussion in any format in any forum (by forum I mean the larger sense of the word not the online sense) is better then blindly accepting a mass media or government position.

Whether people agree or not is not the point.

If it encouraged anyone to do some research or even to develop an opinion then something has been achieved. Infi has valid points the US can't just walk out now, sukah-free has valid points maybe a democracy isn't for everyone. No one here is trying to solve all the worlds problems, but hey by discussing it we are more part of the solution then someone who goes "meh".

Does that mean we should invade Singapore ?

f*** yes

it's pretty much a dictatorship as you said, the people have the free will to vote but govt controlled media and so on is hardly giving other parties a fair suck of the sav

in fact let's strafe singapore with napalm

It's not futile I did an invalid vote this year because of a post on this forum. I said true liberals vote green. Someone responded true liberals can't vote as it is exerting authority over others (or words to that effect).

f***ing air tight.

I drew a cock on my ballot.

thats the kind of democracy iraq should have

I thought it more a statement about the pointlessness of internet debates. You'd be lucky to change someone's mind let alone an actual outcome.

I'd say I've learned a few interesting things from a few forum posters. For example, Booyah's posts have helped me get further insight into the Iraq situation. I've learned how to NOT drive from Paveway.

wait so you went over and married a chick you have known for 5 minutes and didn't even bring her back with you? nice.

ahh no.

3 months, that's 129600 minutes, about 129000 of those minutes spent in her house and the other 600 minutes spent digging graves. I couldn't bring her back with me cause she needed to apply for a visa in Jordan and standard processing time takes 6 months after all the paper work is completed. Also I've known her from before, so that should keep your mouth shut for sometime until you can think of more s*** to dribble.

f***ing munyook.



last edited by Suckah-Free at 01:51:30 13/Apr/07

you should learn how to drift from me

no i agree with the concept that from a practical point of view it may seem apparent that dictatorship is the only way to run a country that is so diverse.

f*** that, lots of countries are diverse and work quite happily as democracies. If you're "diverse" enough that you want to kill other people that are different to you to the point that it destabilises your entire country, well, you're pretty much f***ed anyway.

Suckah-Free's point about that being the only way the country was held together is interesting. Can't they all just... get along?

or if there is no overriding sense of national unity anyway, why not just let the country break up yugoslavia-style?

probably not the clearly demarcated territory - man I'd hate to be the poor sod whose job it was to draw those borders

but i'd agree with democracy being a human right and there has to be some formula that makes it work

but i'd agree with democracy being a human right and there has to be some formula that makes it work

Maybe, but its probably one of those human rights that's best left to be earned or achieved yourself as a country, rather than have imposed upon you

imho ... Maybe it just needs a dictator there for long enough to force them to forget old hatreds and cultural divisions. To force them to think as a nation. Get them working, give people the belief that there is a way up and a future. Get them playing (and winning) international sports as a nation. Make them proud to be part of that nation. Then once they believe they are a nation you can introduce them to democracy, because the people will be interested in the nation instead of their region/religion/sect/town.

Think of a nation as a child. At first you have to give it strong guidance and build their self belief. Then slowly introduce them to making decisions. And eventually turfing them out of the nest to live their own life with all their own decisions.

And if you think its condescending, its basically what they do at basic training to a recruit, when they "rebuild" a person.

Of course it gets further complicated because of the US-Arab tensions, the local tensions (Iran, Kurds etc), and all the people who want the oil.

But we do need to rebuild it, because we broke it.

(none of the above is a solution, just an observation comparison thingamajiggy)

so why aren't you the president of iraq obes

Systems Administrators: The new Cabbies/Barbers

Know all the answers. But do they do anything but whinge? No.

Cos the bombs might stop me from playing LOTRO.

Also its a democracy people would have to vote for me (I wouldn't vote for me) plus I think you have to be born in Iraq to be president! ... beside they need a good dictator not a president.

(Point of discussing it is to prevent boganitis from limiting your conversation to the size of your exhaust or how fully sik the stickers on your door are and expanding your voting habbits beyond the donkey). That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

whilst talking about exhaust size is certainly not something i partake in, neither is trying to solve the worlds problems. I keep my head out of foreign affairs as, except for media coverage, what impact does it have in your life?

IMO Enforced democracy is as ironic as calling a nuclear warhead a peace keeper. After all it took the west centuries to achieved what we now called modern "democracy" - America included. It took them how many wars before they have their own democratic system? I think it's therefore hypocritical of them to suggest that perhaps the mid-east people do not yearn for freedom (LOL yeah that gets used a _lot_) so therefore "we" the more "civilised" people have to educate them by...you know tell them want to do and stuff by taken over their country.

It's an imperialistic mind set which they can't seem to shake and often wonder why people don't like them. And it doesn't work in the long run.

last edited by Opec at 10:06:12 13/Apr/07

I keep my head out of foreign affairs as, except for media coverage, what impact does it have in your life?

Tax increases to fund our involvement ? (either my taxes go up, or my services go down)
Possible widening of the conflict resulting in your conscription ?
Possibly taking a job in Iraq to profit off the corrupt everybodies!
Mates taking jobs in Iraq.
Depleted armed forces being involved overseas leaving our defence force under manned. Naru might invade!

And when you say "media coverage" I bet you watch the Packer / Murdoch sources.

When should the average person start to comment on it, or form an opinion ?

An election this year ... you just donkey voting ? voting like you did last time (which is the way you have always voted which is the way your parents voted .. advanced donkey voting) or the way the news.com.au tells you to ?

... people literally dying to give a country democracy and you care so little for democracy that you won't even have your own opinion and would have a go at those that dare to have an opinion and will share it. Kind of backs the argument for the why the f*** did we get involved in Iraq at all.

Okay, fair call. Obviously this has a heavier impact upon you and therefore spawns your greater interest in the topic.

And when you say "media coverage" I bet you watch the Packer / Murdoch sources.

I try hard not to watch any form of news. I fail to see where I benefit as a person when it comes to, really, other people's affairs. The only real media I seek is financial, ie oil, interest rates etc. I just find that there is little i can do with the information provided to me by any form of media.

The West has been dominating the world for such a long time we need a shake up. We are arrogant in thinking our way is the only way. Not everybody in the world agrees with us and we need to understand this. These countries have a long history and culture of people with a "perceived" lack of freedom how do you expect all this too be changed overnight? You can't make omelette's without breaking eggs. The west cries every time it gets a bloody nose we are becoming too soft.

Iraq was previously run by an idiot! This idiot put himself, and his country, into a position where his previous supporters turned on him. This idiot has since been put down like the rabid dog that he was. Unfortunately, he was taken out without having a proper alternative solution in mind. Now, chaos is in control. Idiots being overrun by idiots, being dominated by idiots.

People mention oil being a part of it. In the first instance, the only reason the region had the initial support of other countries was oil. Countries threw money into the Middle Eastern region because oil drove the entire modern world. If the Middle East didn't supply the majority of the resources required to drive the modern world, would anybody have given a damn that local dictators were exterminating some of their local populous? Certainly not! Without oil, the Middle East would most likely resemble some of the poverty stricken social structures that are now reliant on foreign aid. However, some parts of the region do have oil, and they were unfortunate enough to have had leaders who also pissed off the big boys who have the big toys. They bit the hand that fed them, so to speak.

One of the biggest problems throughout this whole affair is that the region is dominated by the few religious f***wits who have the ability to talk other f***wits into blowing themselves up. We have free needles and shooting galleries for pathetic junkies, so maybe a solution is free shooting galleries for religious f***wits who want to blow themselves up. We could install bomb shelters all around the desert, where idiots could walk in and obtain a bomb kit before going in and blowing themselves up. If they want personal satisfaction before they spread their arse all over the wall, then we could put cardboard cut-outs of hated leaders in them so these morons can spew profanities at them before they end it. Then, somebody can come in and scrape their s*** off the walls, ready for the next moron.

The Middle East needs to understand that when the region settles down then the invading force will leave the area. You cannot undo the invasion of the region, and the force will only leave the area once the populous grows up and learns to manage its own affairs.

FB

We could install bomb shelters all around the desert, where idiots could walk in and obtain a bomb kit before going in and blowing themselves up.

I know that is probably a joke but these suicide bombers' sole motivation is to cause terror and destabilise the reconstruction progress. There are international organsations in Iraq trying to rebuild schools and re-lay power lines, and these are seen as soft targets by the (mostly Sunni) insurgents who resent their loss of power in Baghdad - so they set off bombs having been told by the religious fruitcakes that they will go to Heaven and be served by 40 virgins or whatever.

Also latest news:
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21549520-952,00.html

Sean Penn: Last year I went to Iraq. Before Team America showed up, it was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles.

:D

You keep mentioning sunni insurgents but do you even know that are thousands of iranies pouring into the country from iran and are wrecking havoc in both sunni and shiaate cities? these irannies are extreme shiaates who are strong advocates of Ayatollah Khomeini until this day. You see those shiates on tv slashing and cutting themselves in rememberance of their imams? That's the same crazy people that are crossing the borders and their motives for insurgency go back to the iran and iraq war when iran incured massive civllian losses. Now they are here to pour all of the hatred in their hearts to harm just about everyone, especially sunnies. They believe that because sadam was sunni then all sunnies are supporters of sadam. They are oblivious to the fact that saddam was secular (sunni by name) and he even chopped through practising sunnies in fear of a movement against him.

You keep mentioning sunni insurgents but do you even know that there are still sadam loyalists running around blowing s*** up? these people have nothing to do with religion, they're as secular as sadam was and are out in revenge for sadam's death. These people are still known as the "ba'athist" and they're are a good number of them out there causing random mischief and blaming it on others. Since their government was taken down they're willing to take the entire country down with them and will not spare anyone.

That's not saying there aren't any sunni insurgents out there but their capability is limited compared to that of the iranies. Who knows who else is out there - Al Qaeda militants? kurds wanting to fight for their independance of kurdistan? there were even reports of the US army blowing s*** up and blaming it on the insurgency to justify their stay or whatever but i'm not sure how credible that is... point is all you hear on tv are "religious extremists" and "iraqi insuregents" and it's easy for you to blame a particular group when in fact there are a lot more out there. It's a mess the US created, not just for iraq and it's neighbouring regions but for themselves as well.




last edited by Suckah-Free at 13:12:07 13/Apr/07

yes, i accept there are numerous groups pushing their own agendas and i am not saying the sunni are the sole agitators.

your horse must have really high legs obes, just how does a little man like you get off it?

clearly he meant ewoks

AND these "insurgencies" are further divided into sub groups, eg, Ekwan el muslimeen (muslim brotherhood), Ahal El Sunnah Wa El Jamma'ah, mujahdeen etc that can all be classified under the sunni umberella but in fact operate seperately and each do their own activities.

Then those sub divisions are even further classified.. eg - Ekwan el muslimeen have a fighting force and a political division but their aim is to gain power through politics. They put up banners and campaign their "policies" to increase awarness etc.

Believe it or not there are actually genuine clusters of people out there within these major groups that are trying to make a difference without resorting to blood shed but unfortunately not causing a big enough impact in the midst of all of the sectarian violence.

I fail to see where I benefit as a person when it comes to, really, other people's affairs.

Well at the very least, watching the news gives you many great examples of how not to behave as a human being.

Ruben, its a high horse to expect people to care about major world issues or to have an opinion over things that will effect them ? The only way you can possibly think something as big as the middle east issues is having no impact on you is if you have an ostrich "head in the sand" view of the world. Middle east problems = higher oil prices = inflationary pressures = interest rate rises pressure = wage increase pressure. I am no economist but even I can see "stuff" is connected.

If you don't like this thread, don't read it ? .. I like it... I have had infi and suckah change my view point on s***, and made me think about it a bit more.

Believe it or not there are actually genuine clusters of people out there within these major groups that are trying to make a difference without resorting to blood shed but unfortunately not causing a big enough impact in the midst of all of the sectarian violence.

Well the IRA seems to have stopped blowing up people so anything is possible.

the IRA stopped blowing stuff up and disarmed after Sein Fein were recongnised as legitimate. If the Sunni's re-engage the political process in the next elections this would be a fantastic start, but as was already mentioned this is only once aspect of the insurgency.

hi dumb c***s.

http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/blog/2006/11/15/iraq-the-death-squads-special-report.



tell me why this little girl has to suffer?
(picture i took while i was there)

http://members.optusnet.com.au/amaraziz/iraqi_girl.jpg

New WPO Poll

tell me why this little girl has to suffer?

s***, bitch is on a swing having a blast. I'm still at work ffs.

Fair Dinkum. This thread is really wearing thin. Farking Middle Easterners blowing up Middle Easterners. This is the history of the Middle East region. Savages beget savages, just the same as weak minded farkers who aren't willing to stand up for themselves get stood over.

Australia is a great country because we don't put up with that sort of crap. If an Aussie mutant ninja religious force decided to go around blowing things up, then they would be stomped on so hard that they would cease to exist.

The only way for change to take hold in the Middle East is when the weak minded populous decide that enough is enough. Until such time as they decide to band together into a force that is prepared to fight for their future, then the pathetic religious fanatics will always stand over them. If the general populous banded together then they would be a force that could not only evict invaders, stop fanatics blowing up their country, but they could also build a country into whatever they wanted.

Bloody Sheep!!!! Don't come over here crying foul, we fought in the deserts against the Germans when they spilled throughout the Middle East. Get some balls and rally your people to stand up for themselves. Don't cry foul and point the finger. It is pathetic to watch. Get a life.

FB

Until such time as they decide to band together into a force that is prepared to fight for their future

Dude, that's the problem - that's exactly what they have done

tell me why this little girl has to suffer?

Is that the wife booyah bought?

Dude, that's the problem - that's exactly what they have done

Not yet Trog. They are fractured into groups who war against themselves as much as other people. Too many outside groups use the situation as a religious expression, and most bombs blow up Iraq civilians rather than troops. If everybody stood united, and said enough is enough. Stomp on the farkers who are running around with bombs etc, and stood united and said "We can run our own country." Then, and only then, will they see their position in life change. Then and only then, will that beautiful child be able to play on a swing without fear of being blown up.

THE WORLD WITHOUT america IS WONBERFUUL

THE WORLD WITHOUT america IS WONBERFUUL

Maybe!

A World Without Muslims is Safer!

Maybe!

Do we kill all the Americans, or all the Muslims. Do we howl at the moon and cry foul like pathetic little children, or do we stand up like men and solve the problems that we face. We blow each other up, yet we are killing this planet at an alarming rate through modern utilities and products. We cry foul over certain wrongs, and support other wrongs that are destroying our future.

We could Nuke the entire Middle Eastern Region, and never have to worry about that region for a long, long time. However, is that an acceptable option. Some would say yes, some would say no. You slam the Yanks for invading the region, yet your region took their money when they were dishing it out. You want a safer environment for your culture and children, yet you would like to see every American man, woman and child eliminated from the face of the earth.

Double standards, and pathetic arguments. That is all I see from some of the animated voices in this thread. Now go and crawl back under the rock that you crawled under from.

All I see from you is fence sitting and name calling

There is nothing that I can do to resolve the conflict Trog, and there is nothing that I will do. It is not my battle in life.

Therefore, apart from operating in an advisory capacity, fence sitting is all that I can offer.

If everybody stood united, and said enough is enough. Stomp on the farkers who are running around with bombs etc, and stood united and said "We can run our own country

That's easier said than done. If everyone was united then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

Astwatboy is lame.

That's easier said than done. If everyone was united then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

I agree Suckah. Work out how to unite the people, and then a solution can be found. Stand proud, stand tall, and shout defiance into the wind. You are who you are, and never let anybody change that fact. I know I don't.

One person is a protest, but several people are a rally. However, a multitude of people is an army. With an army, you can change the face of the world.

Stand proud, stand tall, and shout defiance into the wind

Umm... that's what people are doing..including the bombers, and they're not just shouting either :/

including the bombers

But I reckon that these are the problem mate. If people stopped blowing things up, let the area settle down, then self-government and peace is the next step. However, as long as violence is around then the invading force will stay there.

If people stopped blowing things up, let the area settle down, then self-government and peace is the next step. However, as long as violence and OIL is around then the invading force will stay there.

Yeah i agree, BUT, any self-government that will be put in place democractically will have heavy US involvement in it. The so called government that will be put in place is going to be one that will have to obey US orders right down to the T, since they're not going to risk putting another saddam or "terrorist" in charge. The US will dictate their own terms and conditions at every level of the elections. That means it's always going to be rigged. The current shi'ite government is just that - yet another patheric corrupt US puppet. What a joke.

Do you really think US/Israel will accept a democractically held election where the "terrorists" win it? did the US accept the democratically held election in Algeria when FIS (Islamic Salvation Front) won it? what about in palastine when Hammas won? or in Lebanon when Hasan Nasrallah (leader of hezbollah) won? what about when Ahmadinejad won the very fair democratically held elections in Iran which again was not acceptable to the bush regime. Do you know why? because Ahmadinejad criticized US foreign policies. Forget about Muslims and the Middle East, Hugo Chavez was democratically elected president of Venezuela yet he was still not accepted by the US because he too criticized American policies. Yes that's it, god forbid anyone CRITICIZE the US government! So where is this free speech that the US advocates? where's the democracy in the above mentioned examples? what's the point of accepting this imposed democracy in the first place? How do you expect the US to fight for this noble cause when they have a big fat double standard written across their forehead? imposed democracy - It's an oxymoron.

Ultimately any government put in charge in iraq will be one that will serve US interests. Reality is the US dont give a s*** about anyone else and it pisses me off when ignorant people will tell you otherwise because of a mere stereotype that exists in their heads:

- White undercut marine with US flag tatoo = good forces

- Turbin/towel head sand nigga with big beard = evil forces.


Yeah good on ya, go back to hollywood, it's that way --------------->



last edited by Suckah-Free at 04:50:59 14/Apr/07

It is sad Suckah, simply because there is no real immediate solution. I hope that one day your people will be able to experience a peaceful life.

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/3788/nunswithgunsxe7.jpg

haha

Bigzub / Suckah…

Until my assumptions are corrected, please just take it as curiosity.

So far in these posts your main contributions are arguments for why the war is unjust and destroying a nation, and many explanations of the nature and culture of the people, etc… both for which I thank you and do enjoy reading about, minus all the explicit language, but obviously your very passionate.

Anyway, the assumptions that I refer to are these…

Q: Why did you (if not you, your parents, grandparents etc…) move to a country like Australia?
(For now, I will assume it is for a job / education – if for democracy, that would certainly help further my point)

One of the benefits (but subsequent problem) is the capitalist environment that thrives in a democracy as oppose to any other political environment. A competitive capitalist world provides for innovation, jobs, greater education… arrogance…. But as much as I would love to be a tree loving hippie (not really), I enjoy a lifestyle that has been born out of this environment. However to sustain such an environment, you need to have luxuries such as political freedoms, freedom of speech, free religion, equality etc…

The answer to “why you live/ have lived in Australia” is the very thing that you say is destroying Iraq. The Iraq war was brought to you by a democratic capitalist society. Of course, as being demonstrated, it is not instilling very democratic like behaviour.

Q: Do you believe a country called Israel, exists / should exist? And exist peacefully alongside another nation/s of different religious belief?
(my perception from your comments is no)

You choose/chose to live in a country where these values are highly visible in everyday life.

To continue…
An Australian Imam of Islam continues to draw attention to himself and his religion (in what most regard a negative light), but is allowed to continue without once being prosecuted or executed by the government for what he says.

Pauline Hanson, although labeled a racist, was not prosecuted or executed by the government for having said what she believed.

You say a united country under a dictator where these values do not exist, is better then going through the pain of gaining a somewhat democratic capitalist environment. I would disagree. The cost of war is high, a price America has paid many times with vast amount of casualties to the very cause now being proclaimed. Independence, Civil War, WWII, to name just the major ones. Australia, has also donned this cap countless times. These are values that these countries do not take lightly and will fight for them.

Maybe the question should not be why we are acting in this case; maybe the question should be why we don’t act in many of the other instances. (However I believe someone else is already answered this – “there is always a cost to war, but there needs to be a return when it is on foreign soil”) And here lies the very problem of the system… not the values, the system.

My view is this;

I do believe in these values, that I have mentioned above and do defend them. I would prefer that other countries found these values from within and had the political will power (and sometimes force) to overcome oppression. But this is from someone who has had the luxury of being brought up in a “free” environment.


Also, on a side note,

I believe the values that illegal immigrants (refugees) bring to the country over legal immigrants from the same country are closer aligned to ours. As those illegal immigrants who are fighting for these freedoms/opportunities and/or escape from persecution in their own country, fight much harder to keep and cherish the new freedom that they obtain. I have a few friends in Australia that are/were “illegal immigrants”, Vietnamese and Philippines, and saw it countless times in California, with the Mexican illegals.

obviously, this is all relgions fault (again)

obviously, this is all relgions fault (again)

what'd relgion do wrong?

what'd relgion do wrong?

Nothing! Its the people who belive in said religion (any religion! Christianity is far from perfect) that make the issues.

I was making a joke at his spelling error :/

I know religion is for retards.

Geeeeez, I thought this thread was fading into the sunset, UNTIL

Some Twat came along and revived the thread, and in so doing, Spooked Cl1nt and got the Fireblood going again... ^_^

yeah and then FurryBear posted

^_^ ...

Japan didn't have a problem when america 'reshaped' its political structure post ww2... They seem to be doing pretty well now...

Why are there so many suicide bombing in iraq now? I mean i could understand if they were targeting the americans, but why are they blowing up their own civilians? Crazy.

to create terror. as was said before many of these terrorists are not actually iraqi nationals. they are sneaking into iraq to generate political instability because they are the sworn enemies of iraq i.e. iran.

man there is so much angst in that part of the world

they all have got sand in their vaginas and have to take it out on others

tell me why this little girl has to suffer?
At least now, she won't be raped and tortured by big bad Saddham!

http://www.september11news.com/02Sept10_GirlCandleJersCityNJVigilAPHulshizer.jpg Yes why should this little girl suffer???

Boxhead, I'll assume that this little american girl has somethng to do with 911 and 2752 deaths resulting from it ? ... in which case what has that got to do with Iraq ?

If however it was an american girl was mourning one of the 3500+ allied deaths in Iraq, or 25000 plus US injurys... Good question

I would assume those two gold columns on her shirt represent the TWIN towers. AMIRITE?

Infi the point I was making was that there was no link between Sadam's Iraq and 911/al-Qaeda, and that Boxhead's image showed a common lack of understanding of the topic. Even Bush's administration claims to have never claimed that, they may have a few times suggested it in the early days, but they basically deny they ever said anything like that. The DIA, FBI and CIA in offical reports all doubt any links, a US senate commitee found as one of its major conclusions

Postwar findings indicate that Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qa'ida and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qa'ida to provide material or operational support.

And the one offical document dubbed the "Feith memo" that created a link has since been discreditted by the pentagon (among others) which stated it

developed, produced, and then disseminated alternative intelligence assessments on the Iraq and al Qaida relationship, which included some conclusions that were inconsisent with the consensus of the Intelligence Community, to senior decision-makers.

In other words the US intel sector thought it was crap then and they still think its crap.

(Not to mention that more Americans have died in Iraq then in the "allah akbah" yelling crazy's 911 attacks).


Yet now "insurgents" (the new buzz word for terrorists, terrorists inspires terror and we have made Iraq better now!) run wild in Iraq ?

Supposedly the world is being made safer, but now if you buy a bottle of booze in an overseas duty free story post checkin, and your flight does not fly direct to Brisbane, expect to loose it ... for our freedom!


Just remember that Bush the man that commited our country to the Iraq war believes "intelligent design" is science not theology.

why that little girl has to suffer?

well people who think like this:

http://marinecorpsmoms.com/new_images/AdamMarshall.jpg

support people like this:

http://throw-a-tomato.com/image.jpg

who support people like this:

http://www.needlenose.com/images/HalliburtonSign.jpg

who then support themselves like this:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/images/security/iraq/crude/gasflare.jpg

who want to do this:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/images/iraq_currency.jpg

....then this occurs:

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraq204.jpg

and this occurs:

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/pix/iraq_bomb_cp_7459504.jpg

and this occurs:

http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/images/yon-pic.jpg

and this:

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/bushbeat/archive/images/iraq-torture-dogs-thumb.jpg

..and this occurs:

http://www.brandonblog.homestead.com/files/blog-capt.ny11404231311.jpg


and they all blame it all on this guy:... who's now dead.

http://bias.blogfodder.net/archives/archives/IRAQ Saddam.jpg


then they excersise their constitutional rights. rights they hold sacred and only applicable to themselves. and feel "safe"... from "things".

http://www.girlontheright.com/redneck.jpg

whether that be food;

http://www.constructiveanarchy.com/blog/freedomfries.jpg

or people they learn about in the food court.

http://www.middleeasterndance.homestead.com/files/muslim-girl-in-refugee-camp-banda-aceh.jpg

they blame everything they can think of:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-09/11/xinsrc_a14cead2e47811d7810d0010b5d28995_laden111.jpg

but themselves:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_B-1B_Dropping_WCMDs_lg.jpg

^ heh

lmnt, telling it in pictures. Nice one.

you left out the picture of a suicide bomber or explosives packed car with kids in it.

i left out alot of pictures infi....

tops element :)

nice B-1b

heh

would you like fries with your death?

lmnt can you now explain to me where babies come from

vagina's spook.

http://stakeventures.com/images/lilbabygoatse.jpg

tits