Do you think the kids born in the last 5 years or so will grow up with a dumber society? Kids now a days play too many computer games, watch too much tv, read fantasy instead of fiction, professionals rely on google the list goes on......

They won't know any difference, they'll be brought up this way.

Intelligent Uni students would rather choose computer games creation than being a dr or law.

We're already short of professionals here in Australia and it's only going to get worse in the years to come.

wrong

one big mac thanks.

Don't paint all the same kids with the same brush. While I think kids today are a lot dummer than past generations there are still plenty who are extremely clever.

Plus, since when did playing computer games = stupid? :P

Do you think the kids born in the last 5 years or so will grow up with a dumber society?

it makes no differnce.

until you all accept our lord jebus christ into your ass you're all going to hell

to all you religious dudes who are reading this, plz don't take that as an insult. YES - I think that there is something to all that crap you guys have in whichever version/revision of teh manual bible/script/scroll you choose to read and run off... it's just that I don't think we got it right when MS Windows XP your religious operating system of choice was first released. Hell - I still consider a throw of the runes when indescisive.


save me jebus - I forgot to set my e-bible to enable auto-updates.


if we're all heading to a future where we take science a little more seriously without ignoring that which makes us human it'll all be good. somehow, I figure this will happen regardless of what we do and say here in this forum.


last edited by koopz at 23:20:19 03/Feb/07

runes ROCK, wooden dey?

last time i looked, which was about 3 or 4 years ago, it looked like we were short of laborers (ie hairdressers etc)

That's cause kids today are afraid of hard work

/waves walking stick (with hidden knife in hilt) around menacingly

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrocket, to find out how dumb society will become in 500 years time just watch:

http://redsox.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Idiocracy/idiocracy_poster_small.jpg


last edited by Booyah at 00:01:07 04/Feb/07

<irony>While I think kids today are a lot dummer than past generations there are still plenty who are extremely clever.</irony>

I think kids today are a lot dummer than past generations

http://www.lasvegasgleaner.com/photos/uncategorized/morans.jpg

oh yeah they are dumber but not because of games. its because schools here suck. on and people with no licenses are allowed to have kids.

until you all accept our lord jebus christ into your ass you're all going to hell

holly evil jesus praise the lord

last edited by TufNuT at 01:52:04 04/Feb/07

Intelligent Uni students would rather choose computer games creation than being a dr or law.

Hell yeah, who wouldn't? Can't see how thats going to breed a society of dumb people though, you actually have to be rather intelligent to make games.

Sorry, didn't mean to put annoying facts in the way of your wonderful tale of woe, it wont happen again.

read fantasy instead of fiction

What?

read fantasy instead of fiction

The scary thing is, no one picked up on that until now.

We're all getting dumber by the second i tell ya.

If you read fantasy it gradually makes you dumber I read it on the internet.

I disagree. If you're prepared to limit your statement to the western world, then we are the smartest people that have ever lived. Most people have received a minimum of a Grade 10 education. 10 -years- being educated. Record numbers of people go on to university to gain specialised knowledge to contribute to the advancement of society.

Compare that to any point in our history and we are by far the smartest and best educated people thus far.

Intelligent Uni students would rather choose computer games creation than being a dr or law.

bloody upstart uni students wanting a career in a field that interests them...how selfish!


last edited by korbs at 09:34:43 04/Feb/07

Television, the drug of a nation.

Once again, I met an individual who was remarkably well adjusted in many ways. I wasnt too surprised to hear they grew up without a television.

Television is the scurge of our Western world. All those sit-coms,cartoons, movies and such give us and our kids a false, almost mechanised view of life. Also the amount of time a random individual watches T.V. is disgusting, so many hours that could have been used to do many other activities, such as reading, writing, constructing, family/friends, exploring, thinking. In short, TV is sapping people of their life.

i don't think anything has ever changed. People are just as smart/stupid as they have always been. The only two differences these days are:

* It is easier for poor people to become well educated (but unfortunately, this rarely happens, as the poverty cycle is usually not perpetuated by external factors but just by genetic laziness/idiocy)

*It is easier for people to live a lazier life. I don't think that the hour or two a day I spent as a child playing Space Invaders/Tapper/Zaxxon on an XT is any different to little Johnny playing Zelda etc on his Wii.

Idiots will have idiot children. Clever people will have clever children. People who are educated and have alright jobs yet fail to make good life choices (ie living payweek to payweek, pissing up money on useless s***) have been around for hundreds of years and will continue to do so for hundreds more.

I'll just sit back, analyse society and try to learn from other's mistakes so I can do my best at life. It is important, i find, to be a big observer and listener into 'the other side' of life and decisions, and sometimes, depending on who you are, the alternative decision is the right one, ie LPG.

eK
You know moran is the guys last name right?
bud morans

read fantasy instead of fiction

LOL, well at least rrrocket proved his point.

I just think it's sad that the original post is so loaded with grammatical, lexical and logic errors. :(

I do agree to some extent. Look at how children are raised today. Every child I know has to have some garbage roaring at them from teh TV while they do any other activity, even if they're not watching it or not even in the room. As always, I blame the parents.

oh yeah they are dumber but not because of games. its because schools here suck. on and people with no licenses are allowed to have kids.

I’d also put a lot of the blame on parents. If parents don’t understand the value of education, then the kids won’t either.

Hahaha what a bunch of old foggies you are. There is one thing you need to know about the world, people don't change much. They were saying the same s*** about us when we were kids. They just didn't have an internet to blog it on.

Fact is more kids can read and write today than they could 100 years ago, and since gadgets become such a large part of our lives more kids are getting interested in science and technology as well.

Hahahaha

Case & point rrrocket.

May God have mercy on kat's children.

They go to confession often. No need to worry

EK, this guy gets around!

http://users.bigpond.net.au/et/images/573fda7a30.jpg


last edited by E.T. at 16:41:58 04/Feb/07

Had many conversations with a very intelligent friend of mine who reads sci-fi - reason being is, his dad used to ban any fiction books he found in the house to force him to do school work. Now reading sci-fi novels is like a drug for him and jesus, you should see all the books he has read. Has nothing to do with society. If anything, it keeps him out of society and most of the time, he's an outcast from society due to his intelligence.

As for "dumber society" - my answer is no, no worse than 5 years before, or 5 years before that. In fact, I think the fact computer savvy people can lookup things on the internet, can make people more informed and in effect a smarter society. I made a doctor look like an incompetent boob due to my research using google - how many other generations could do that?? Besides, intelligence you will find is often related to genetics anyway. Nature or nurture? You decide. I say nature.

As for, they won't know any different, they will be brought up this way - people will, and have been for years, born into a current level of technology/evolution. As time goes on, we evolve more, life changes, this will become more and more apparent, if it hasn't already. Think I'm stating the obvious there.. We evolve on the knowledge of the previous generations as we have it handed to us. We then use that and evolve it to a higher level and hence, where we are today.. It's not like we're all sitting around f***ing our sisters and re-inventing the wheel. I doubt we'll ever end up on the moon or another planet though. hehe

As for people's Uni choices, look to the government and schools for that one. When I went through school (long time ago now) but like, the careers counselor pretty much said "ok, what Uni course are we going to get you into". There is a skills shortage for tradies currently, but that sure as f*** doesn't have anything to do with technology, it's because people f***ed up and didn't encourage my generation to get into a trade. Short on professionals my arse.

Stupid people have been breeding for centuries. You hear chatter about some people are choosing not to have kids until later in life or not at all. Again, this has been happening for centuries too. The statistics may of gone up, and I'd put that down to people wanting to have more "me time". So basically a selfish thing that has been installed in their brains through the current society we currently live in, which I guess could be attributed to, all the f***ing technology we are exposed to and have to have, which actually gives us less time. But I could be wrong, could just be, the effect of technology, the way the world has evolved, etc has basically created a s*** environment that people don't want to bring kids into.

I'm drunk, sorry for sharing myself. I'll probably delete this post tomorrow when I sober up.

its called technology, why would people read books and waste time looking for information when you can find it in 2seconds flat on the internet.

Also, how does reading fiction compared to fantasy have anything to do with how "intelligent" someone is. thats one of the stupidist comments i've heard. Do ppl who read fantasy novels lose brain cells whereas ppl who read fiction greatly gain them?... boring history vs creative writing that opens ppls minds and installs hope/wonder etc

You've obviously lost enough brain cells.

It's non-fiction already.

fanstasy / non fiction same s*** different spelling

Most people have received a minimum of a Grade 10 education. 10 -years- being educated.

Too bad the quality of that education in that 10 year period has plummeted.

As Booyah said, go watch Idiocracy.

Moral people are much harder to find - people are far more authoritarian. Or, perhaps I should say, authoritarian people are far easier to come by.

no, you shouldn't say

Moral people are much harder to find - people are far more authoritarian. Or, perhaps I should say, authoritarian people are far easier to come by.

This statement makes absolutely no sense to me, not only because someone who is moral can also be authoritarian but also because I don't see how it relates to the topic of society becoming dumber.

Also as a side note and purely an opinion...

I believe that genetics plays some part in intelligence though at the same time, being brought up in an environment where you are encouraged to have your own opinions/beliefs (and to think about the reasons you want/have them), analyse your choices in life and the implications for others (and not just told something is "right" or "wrong") and to be in a routine of working hard is also just as important.

You may not always have genetics on your side but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't do well in life.

This statement makes absolutely no sense to me, not only because someone who is moral can also be authoritarian but also because I don't see how it relates to the topic of society becoming dumber.

It was basically my way of saying "religious people, ie, those who get their morals from religion, divine command, or some other authoritarian rule, are actually less moral, and far less intelligent than those who generate their morals from rationale and altruism".
And since so much of our society is religious, it's also fair to say much of our society is retarded.

fanstasy / non fiction same s*** different spelling

What the hell? Not the same s***. Not even same stink.

Fiction: Made up s***. Stories. Think The Hobbit, The Hunt for Red October, Little Red Riding Hood. Fantasy is a genre of Fiction.

Non-Fiction: Not made up s***. An encyclopaedia is a work of Non-Fiction.

sc00bs - you're an idiot haha

What the hell? Not the same s***. Not even same stink.

I thought you had butchered his quote when I read that, thinking surely no-one could be that stupid, and had to go back and check.

I think sc00bs just illustrated the point being made in this thread.

It was basically my way of saying "religious people, ie, those who get their morals from religion, divine command, or some other authoritarian rule, are actually less moral, and far less intelligent than those who generate their morals from rationale and altruism".
And since so much of our society is religious, it's also fair to say much of our society is retarded.

Hmm, I don't know if I agree with that. I think we ALL have beliefs (religious or life-based philosophies) that influence/dictate how we act and that to SOME extent, those beliefs have to be based on logic.

Even religious phanatics generally believe in "good" and their ideas for e.g. treating others well, seem to be based on some logic (treating others well = a good society/being a good religious follower = happiness = good). Just because ppl have differing opinions which may be influenced by religion, I don't think that NECESSARILY means that they can't appreciate others differing opinions/beliefs and see how they could also be logical.

I'm not sure how all of this relates to the topic of our society becoming dumber though - different beliefs are inevitable; laziness and narrow-mindedness are what typically seem to make for a dumber society imo.

Do ppl who read fantasy novels lose brain cells whereas ppl who read fiction greatly gain them?

It would help when arguing passionately, to actually understand the terms you are using, especially in a "dumber society" thread :)

Anyway, I don't believe Fantasy nor Science Fiction contribute much to your intelligence, with intelligence being defined as your capacity and rate of learning. While 'smartness' being how much 'fact' your know, whether it's general knowledge or some specifics of Quantum Mechanics.

That being said, I believe Fantasy contributes almost nothing to smartness. It's all about arbitrary lands, magic, dragons and s*** ... stuff you would never encounter ever in your life, and can never draw upon that knowledge.

Some science-fiction on the other hand really blurs the line between fiction and fact, and can be considered to make you smarter about specific topics.

Take for example the Mars Trilogy (by Kim Stanley Robinson), "chronicling the settlement and terraforming of the planet Mars". He tried to accurately project how humans would go about travelling to and settling on Mars in a way that's very hard to disagree with. He did enormous amounts of research into the current activities of NASA, etc .. and the amount of scientific and logistical detail he goes to is absolutely insane.

Granted, the subplots and relationships described in the books are all fiction, but it's a good insight into the challenges that humans might meet in planet-exploration.

Reading to your children does help them in regards to learning and reading as they get older.

Reading books - fiction or non fiction does help people intellectually.

I don't think reading forums and online role play games can be compared to reading books.

Go to any school these days and you can tell the children who have had books read to them and those who haven't. Unfortunately these days it seems to be reading anything helps you or worse any stimulation helps. Watching tv or reading cereal packets cannot be compared and yet it is.

last edited by Kat at 11:45:02 05/Feb/07

That being said, I believe Fantasy contributes almost nothing to smartness. It's all about arbitrary lands, magic, dragons and s*** ... stuff you would never encounter ever in your life, and can never draw upon that knowledge.

Almost completely untrue. You have likened reading fantasy as being close to a vegetative state in terms of development of intellect, ignoring the extremely beneficial gains made in literacy and expansion of vocabulary. The primary reason that today's standards of spelling and grammar are so incredibly poor is that reading as a leisure pastime has fallen away.

The act of reading in itself reinforces the mind and elevates 'smartness'. You are correct in that you don't gain a lot in the way practical knowledge from reading completely fictional stories.

But reading, whatever the actual content, is a worthy intellectual endeavour. One of the most important things to do as you grow up (and as you grow older) is to regularly stimulate the areas of the brain assciated with language, cognition and reasoning.

Every school librarian in the country will attest to the fact that it doesn't matter so much what you get kids to read, as getting them to read period. English teachers often try to broaden the appetites of children who are fascinated with fantasy and this is a good thing to do, so long as the reading itself is maintained.

You are correct in that you don't gain a lot in the way practical knowledge from reading completely fictional stories.

That was my main point.

But reading, whatever the actual content, is a worthy intellectual endeavour

Agreed,.. reading is a good exercise in general, but I'd rather read something that I would likely use in future and also promotes new ways of thinking or seeing the world.

For example, '1984' would probably be the best read I've had in the last year or two as it really makes you draw parallels between what happened in the book (as well as the times during which the book was written) and similar events occurring today that you normally wouldn't have thought much of.

Having read heaps of Fantasy books at high-school on the other hand, I can't say I gained anything special from them. Sure it stimulated my brain, but it was more a case of entertainment. I don't think about the books nor characters or anything at all, as it was all pretty arbitrary and not really relevant to anything.

The benifit from reading is mostly the stimulation and exercise of various bits'n'pieces of the mind. If the mind if stimulated in similar ways by another method it should have similar results.

I have 2 sisters, both older then me. They both read alot of books, at any one time they usually have 3-5 books 'going'.
Myself, I didn't read much at all. I played alot of computer games, which stimulated my mind in various ways.
We all have very similar levels of intelligence, they both have a better vocabulary and can spell better then I, however I cain them with logical leaps and rate of understanding.

I feel significantly dumber by reading this thread.

For example, '1984' would probably be the best read I've had in the last year or two as it really makes you draw parallels between what happened in the book (as well as the times during which the book was written) and similar events occurring today that you normally wouldn't have thought much of.

Good fiction explores themes in a thought provoking and relevant fashion. This is true across all genres; there is equally as much vacuous fiction to be found in sci-fi, fantasy, action, mystery etc.

I would challenge anyone to find much that was thought-provoking in a typical Mills & Boon novel, for example.

Having read heaps of Fantasy books at high-school on the other hand, I can't say I gained anything special from them. Sure it stimulated my brain, but it was more a case of entertainment. I don't think about the books nor characters or anything at all, as it was all pretty arbitrary and not really relevant to anything.

The sort of fantasy that appeals to the developing (or juvenile) mind tends to be simplistic. Characters are typically rigid archetypes, and don't undergo a lot of development throughout the story. This is often true in Dragonlance and other popular pulp literature of the genre. While entertaining to read, you won't draw a lot of substantial, real-world allegory from the shallow and obvious telling of Raistlin Majere's descent into evil.

There is a lot of fantasy fiction out there that fits into this mould, as it sells extremely well, like a crappy Hollywood blockbuster movie.

However there is a good body of 'real' fantasy literature. A modern example is probably Stephen Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant sequences. Adult themes of sexuality, impotence and rape are explored, along with philosophical issues of reality etc. Some of the greatest literary works of all time are fantasy titles - The Lord of the Rings and Alice in Wonderland to name a couple of the more obvious. Better modern fantasy tends to steer clear of cliches like elves and dwarves and magic swords.

There is also a huge steaming pile of non-fiction tripe. There are a lot of people pushing out great turds that sell extremely well.

Reading bad literature is generally better than losing hours in front of the tube watching Big Brother though!

different beliefs are inevitable; laziness and narrow-mindedness are what typically seem to make for a dumber society imo.

Definitely, the problem is religion lends itself to narrow-mindedness, it makes people easier to control.

That being said, I believe Fantasy contributes almost nothing to smartness. It's all about arbitrary lands, magic, dragons and s*** ... stuff you would never encounter ever in your life, and can never draw upon that knowledge.

Sounds like you've read some crap fantasy. It seems you've disregarded many other elements of said fantasy novels to paint them with the same brush like that. Shakespeare was fanciful, ghosts, come on... why not label all fiction the same way?

I do agree with you though in saying a lot of fantasy is derivative tripe, but there are some pearls amongst the rough.

I feel significantly dumber by reading this thread.

I swear I get dumber almost every time I read the comments on various forums or those on articles on the internet. I don't know why I do it :(

How do you define smart/stupid? Are you including experience or “survival” smarts, or educated smarts?

* It is easier for poor people to become well educated (but unfortunately, this rarely happens, as the poverty cycle is usually not perpetuated by external factors but just by genetic laziness/idiocy)

I know where you’re coming from with this statement, and I think it’s a really easy statement to make … but I don’t think it’s really true. I don’t think the majority of poor people are poor because they are stupid or lazy, rather I think it is because they have little to no value on education and they don’t understand how to create wealth.

*It is easier for people to live a lazier life. I don't think that the hour or two a day I spent as a child playing Space Invaders/Tapper/Zaxxon on an XT is any different to little Johnny playing Zelda etc on his Wii.

If you move back outside of a single generation, regular leisure activities –outside of f***ing your wife and the odd village piss-up- are quite rare … unless you were filthy rich. Go back a couple of generations and most of us would have been working 10 hour days to make a crust.

Fact is more kids can read and write today than they could 100 years ago, and since gadgets become such a large part of our lives more kids are getting interested in science and technology as well.

You’re right, compared to people from 100 years ago we are – in general – a whole heap smarter. In fact, if you go back 1000 years, we are – in general – probably 10 times smarter again. *assuming we are talking about educated smarts

However, fact is, in the last 25 years less and less students are studying higher education in any of it’s forms. In fact – because of a world wide boom, many of the current youth generation don’t have any inclination to study or learn anything outside of their immediate desires because they don’t see the need.

I.E. we are becoming – as a whole – less educated.

i 1nce red a book abot a sumbarine ........... it blue up lol

However, fact is, in the last 25 years less and less students are studying higher education in any of it’s forms. In fact – because of a world wide boom, many of the current youth generation don’t have any inclination to study or learn anything outside of their immediate desires because they don’t see the need.

I.E. we are becoming – as a whole – less educated.

I don't think that's correct. If I wasn't apparently working I'd spend the time to look up some Bureau stats...

My old man tells me that 25 years ago that most people didn't do year 11 and 12, stopping at Year 10, and a very small percentage had Univeristy education. I'm the first on my Dad's side to get a degree, but it looks like my cousins will follow. The same is true on my mother's side, our generation has the first degrees.

Even with the recent erosion of high level students this would probably still be higher than the 60s and 70s and earlier. Certainly going back further where education was the domain of the wealthy general education was a LOT lower.

Most people used to drop out and complete trade traineeships. This has dropped significantly these days, resulting in our tradies shortage. I'm sure I've read the official reason for this as being high desiirability for white collar employment, but I don't have a source.

Education levels may have tapered recently but I wouldn't bank on a drop.

I'm the first on my Dad's side to get a degree, but it looks like my cousins will follow. The same is true on my mother's side, our generation has the first degrees.

I'll be the first in our WHOLE family tree to get a degree.

Pretty crazy :D

The next millionares will be tradesmen.

EDIT: Don't forget that 25 years ago is 1982.

I don't think that's correct. If I wasn't apparently working I'd spend the time to look up some Bureau stats...

The last time I looked up ABS statistics the number of graduates in Australia had dropped from 18% to ~13%. Also, the number of people who are going into any tertiary (i.e. anything after highschool) study overall had dropped as well.

If I wasn’t apparently working too, I’d spend some time on the ABS website and find the statistics we found. Maybe I’ll incite xyzzy to log on and do some work :P

My old man tells me that 25 years ago that most people didn't do year 11 and 12, stopping at Year 10, and a very small percentage had Univeristy education.

Most people only study to grade 12 because their parents make them – actually same goes for University.

In the 70’s many upper-middle class kids (and better) would have been aiming to go to University. Don’t forget that kid’s who were skilled at school had plenty of options for full scholarships.

Also, remember in the 80’s University became free to everybody, a lot of people who could never have afforded to go to University did so. This increased the number of graduates to phenomenal levels. I.E there was a huge spike. During the late 90’s and the very early 00’s numbers have dropped off across the board.

I'm the first on my Dad's side to get a degree

I’m the second. Although, my Cousin is the third.

Certainly going back further where education was the domain of the wealthy general education was a LOT lower.

You’re only including degree’s in your post school education. You need to open up semi-professional education paths, such as associate diploma’s. Many semi-professionals had associate diploma’s of SomethingOrOther.

This has dropped significantly these days, resulting in our tradies shortage. I'm sure I've read the official reason for this as being high desiirability for white collar employment, but I don't have a source.

You’re also forgetting the massive low’s that many trade industries had at the late 80’s and early 90’s? Does anybody remember when BHP fired 2/3’s of it’s employees about 10/12 years ago? How about when QR fired almost all of it’s trade employees about 15/18 years ago? That was a massive factor in driving people away from trades/trade like crafts.

I remember the way my parents were when it came to education “You don’t want to be breaking your back for a living and get fired on a moments notice when you could be working in an office”

Education levels may have tapered recently but I wouldn't bank on a drop.

There have been numerous mentions in the mainstream media about the lack of science, engineering, medical industries, humanities, information (non technology) for at least the last 7 years –that’s when I started reading about them. With only a few schools getting gains – ala business - and not enough to compensate.

There was a recent report from America – ok ok, it’s America, but the research was solid indication- where it interviewed thousands of school leavers across all socio-economic demographics about their post school intentions. A surprisingly large percentage of students who would historically carry onto university had no inclination for further study. The general conclusions was because the current generation of school leavers have never lived outside of a one of the best worldwide economic booms and don’t really understand the value that education can give you afterwards.

That attitude is prevalent in youth centric societies, look at half of the posts in this thread.


last edited by typo at 15:54:11 05/Feb/07

The next millionaires? As in a generic statement “Tradesmen are often millionaires”? I doubt it greatly. Some tradesmen, who expand into running their own businesses based of their trade … sure, a few of them will become millionaires. Just like a minority of people in any industry will become millionares. The vast majority of them won’t either.

Look at tradesmen in mining sites, sure they are probably earning $250,000 dollars a year, but you have to pay $600 dollars a week ($31,200 p/a) to live in an air-conditioned shipping container – nearly 1200 dollars a week ($62,400 p/a) if you want to live in a room in a house, $2000 dollars a week in tax, 5 dollars for a can of coke at woolworths. Most of the miners/tradies at mine sites save exactly 0 dollars.

For non-mining tradesmen, you can make good money, but not millionaire money. Trade apprentices are pouring out at a healthy strap, with more fully qualified tradesmen the share of work will start to get smaller and smaller. Capitalism is a bitch.

I don't think that the hour or two a day I spent as a child playing Space Invaders/Tapper/Zaxxon on an XT is any different to little Johnny playing Zelda etc on his Wii.

OMG someone else has heard of Zaxxon! *dies*

Best... game... ever!

Yeah man, awesome game.

Zaxxon rocks.

I remember it saying 'Copyright 1983 Sega Enterprises' after i booted it off a 5 1/4" floppy.

And we even had a CGA monitor! More than just one colour: Aqua, Pink, Black and any shade of white/grey you like.

http://images.webmagic.com/klov.com/images/10/1049595534.jpg

rofl i remember that game

typo: Its entirely possible I'm showing my age, as you noted, and at 31 I'm probably out of touch with whatever they're calling this generation now (Z?). I was certainly pitching "25 years ago" as my Dad's school generation, which is actually more like 30-35.

s***, I left school at 18 13 years ago...

If there is a decline in professional graduates, tradesmen AND semi-skilled workers - as seems to be the case from the media & your forum posts - then what the hell is Johnny-20-something doing?

Given that unemployment is also histoically low, are "young people" today settling for McJobs or something?

It almost seems as if society is undergoing a process of dumbening.

typo: Its entirely possible I'm showing my age, as you noted, and at 31 I'm probably out of touch with whatever they're calling this generation now (Z?). I was certainly pitching "25 years ago" as my Dad's school generation, which is actually more like 30-35.

I know exactly what you mean. It only really occurred to me after I finished that post – hence the edit – and it was kind of sad :(

If there is a decline in professional graduates, tradesmen AND semi-skilled workers - as seems to be the case from the media & your forum posts - then what the hell is Johnny-20-something doing?

I know within IT there are a lot of people who, in the past, have been extremely successful without qualifications. I know that many large industries are having a hard time getting qualified IT/CS/SE graduates*, Aerotech, Mining, Logistics and so forth …so they are having to ‘get by’ with people without education.

Actually, I’ve seen this trend in other industries – such as business – where because of the general success of the economy people and the low unemployment rates people without formal education get a break somewhere, and end up working well.

Government is filled with uneducated tards who don’t know anything – something I found very ironic at DET – when it was still alive. Maybe a huge chunk of them are getting their starting jobs there and ending up somewhere else?

* I’m not saying that you need to be a graduate for IT, just that companies who are looking for graduates – who don’t suck – are having a hard time.

Although, all that being said. In retrospect the comment you made about it being a “dip” and not a lasting trend is probably true. People will get f***ed over and need a career change, or work out that the grass is greener on the other side and do their education later.

global dumbening, if you will fpot

Although, all that being said. In retrospect the comment you made about it being a “dip” and not a lasting trend is probably true. People will get f***ed over and need a career change, or work out that the grass is greener on the other side and do their education later.

Yeh that was pretty much my experience. I dropped out of Uni first semester, did the McManager thing through fast food & then retail for about 5 years, and realised that I was being owned body and soul for s*** money. I wouldn't say that getting a degree drenched me in cash, but I would probably be on 10k less now and work 20 hours a week more if I'd stayed there, and I'm in a pretty regional area.

It may be that its just that phenomenon on a larger scale. These bloody young people will soon realise they wanna do things like raise kids and have big fat mortgages, and that it costs money. Their lack formal qualifications may restrict their career choices (like it did mine) and they might get some training in.

I'm not so sure that the degree qualification will remain the standard for programming though. The more I do it, day in day out code crunching feels less like a fine professional "art" and more like grunt work for the brain.

OMG someone else has heard of Zaxxon! *dies*

another zaxxon head reporting in

used to play it on my mates tandy

giddyup

IT is pretty played out

But reading, whatever the actual content, is a worthy intellectual endeavour. One of the most important things to do as you grow up (and as you grow older) is to regularly stimulate the areas of the brain assciated with language, cognition and reasoning.

would reading forums etc count? i'm being serious cause lots of people are reading the internets instead of books these days, maybe it could even out

last edited by paveway at 10:27:56 06/Feb/07

would reading forums etc count? i'm being serious cause lots of people are reading the internets instead of books these days, maybe it could even out

Depends on the forum I'd guess. Arguing fine points of existential philosophy on a nerdy end of Usenet somewhere would definetly be stimulating cognition and language.

The average post on www.worldofwarcraft.com is something like:

"omg amirite? roflcopter!"

or

"posting in a legendary thread"

or

"cauals want epix too blues this sux!"

This would probably not be doing much to stimulate your brain. Much like the quality of literature you're reading has an impact on the benefit, so would what you're doing with your net time.

so we're all going to be the smeartest interneters cause we read qgl

ya rly

Scoobs: rofl i remember that game

yeah, was an awesome nonfiction game!

I'm not so sure that the degree qualification will remain the standard for programming though. The more I do it, day in day out code crunching feels less like a fine professional "art" and more like grunt work for the brain.

As programming becomes more mature I think you’ll find it will fall into a few lines.

Computer Scientists will focus in inventing new concepts, algorithms and techniques to do ‘stuff’. This could be new and improved Quality of Service techniques for ultra fast bandwith, or new and cool ways to interact with digital information. These people will require a degree.

Software Engineers will use the concepts, algorithms and techniques that have been created by Computer Sciences and then engineer elements that make them viable for expanded development. A good an simple example from programming is making an API for a complicated topic that allows many people to create interesting things. A second role of Software Engineers is that they will be required to Engineer large scale projects for large organisations to insure that a system can be built to technical specifications. Software Engineers will require a degree.

Developers will use APIs created by software engineers to build products that software engineers and technical analysts design. They won’t need to think of the larger scale picture, and even if they did, nobody is going to ask them. Developers won’t need a degree. I wouldn’t be surprised if it slowly merges into becoming some sort of trade like career.

reading qgl in addition to increasing brain power, also increases the size of your genitals.

i attribute dumbing down of society wholly to News Corp.

You're just dumber than a rock.

Ninety percent of people are stupid.

You couldn't be any dumber if we cut your head off.

I'm wondering if you got a hole in your head.

One of us is a fool.

- Dr Phil

wow, thats harsh dr phil

me fail english, that's unpossible

Ralph

global dumbening is a myth just like global warming but dumber & not as warm.

global warming, more like global BORING!

Maybe if the world is Dumbing down as some would like to belive it would give the world time to play with and distribute all the new toys it has thought up over the last 20 years.
We have more then enough tech to keep the world busy without inventing new tech. :D

http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/surviveourbrain/

We are at a stage not dissimilar to Rome before its downfall.

Lots of citizens who are service based. ie. Pollies, Military, sales people, educators, support staff.
Import all the skilled workers.

imo. Hail Caesar!