Recently someone in a thread that was either about wow or wow related posted a link to a writeup about the phychology behind wow type games, and how it gives little reward for a lot of simple effort and that the reward is given pretty much at random so that you don't know exactly how much of something you need to do to get the reward (or they just used the word and it was the first thing i found googling that word)

Can someone point me to the thread please, my qglsearch ability sucks.

Sounds like Pavlov's Bell.

I typed something along those lines as my GF is a Psychologist - didn't post any articles / linkies though.

is this it? Surely not, beacuse I just went to Search and typed in 'warcraft'

trog, nope.

Is there some other term than Pavlov's Bell/Dog? Cause i'm pretty sure it was just a one worder, and i can't believe i googled it and got a WoW related page, so someone must've linked it.

http://www.negative99.com/archive/190 ?

http://www.halfsigma.com/2006/10/status_masturba.html ?

I found this one, its actually based on EQ studies, but has a plethora of information about mmogs in general. I am pretty sure you are referring to this page http://www.nickyee.com/eqt/skinner.html ... but I could be and probably am wrong. His newer revisions are here http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/ . Guess it proves good games are as much psychology as anything else.

It's behavioral conditing, specifically operant and classical.

Essentially a MMO is a virtual skinner's box.

Obes, that first link is a good example that explains behavorial conditioning though games. There is probably something on Gamasutra and Terranova - actually, I'm pretty sure there is something on Terranova.

sounds like a pokie to me.

i can't find the article, but it's Operant Conditioning. Thanks guys.

Why when i use QGL Search for 'Operant' (no quotes and with or without case) does it not return any threads, since at the very least it should return this one?

Actually it was that NickYee one, i just must've translated Everquest in to WoW in my head.

Thanks

last edited by natslovR at 19:08:35 06/Nov/06

those nick yee links were a good read

http://www.nickyee.com/eqt/skinner.html

nice article, made me think its the aspects of real life that make the game addictive/popular...

the theme of having things easy at first then getting harder as you progress is common in most games though

Why when i use QGL Search for 'Operant' (no quotes and with or without case) does it not return any threads, since at the very least it should return this one?

what am I, a tailor?

what am I, a tailor?

LOL, so telling my boss that next time he 'questions' one of my software's features

Was it this one? Was taken from this site.

60 levels, 30+ epics, a few really good "real life" friends, a seat on the oldest and largest guild on our server's council, 70+ days "/played," and one "real" year later...

Mr. Yeager asked me to write this "guest blog" for him. I figured I should oblige him this request - it was none other than Mr. Yeager who first introduced me to (begged for me to buy, actually :-p) the World of Warcraft. It was the "perfect storm" for me; a time in my life when I was unemployed, living at my family's house far from my friends, and had just finished my engineering degree and was taking a little time to find a job. I had a lot of free time on my hands and WoW gave me a place to spend it.

This could be a many page epic tale, but I figure I'd give you the brief history and pertinent information. The guild Mr. Yeager got me into and with which I became an officer is the oldest and largest on the server I played on. It is around 18 months old and extremely well-versed in endgame instances. I was both the "mage class lead" and an officer. I have many very good friends I met through WoW (in real life - no kidding) and even have been "involved" with another councilor in real life (yes, I know, I'm weird for meeting girls through an online video game but honestly, ask Mr. Yeager, she's head and shoulders better than all the girls I met DJing, waiting tables, in college, and bartending at clubs in Philly). But I digress...

I just left WoW permanently. I was a leader in one of the largest and most respected guilds in the world, a well-equipped and well-versed mage, and considered myself to have many close friends in my guild. Why did I leave? Simple: Blizzard has created an alternate universe where we don't have to be ourselves when we don't want to be. From my vantage point as a guild decision maker, I've seen it destroy more families and friendships and take a huge toll on individuals than any drug on the market today, and that means a lot coming from an ex-club DJ.

It took a huge personal toll on me. To illustrate the impact it had, let's look at me one year later. When I started playing, I was working towards getting into the best shape of my life (and making good progress, too). Now a year later, I'm about 30 pounds heavier that I was back then, and it is not muscle. I had a lot of hobbies including DJing (which I was pretty accomplished at) and music as well as writing and martial arts. I haven't touched a record or my guitar for over a year and I think if I tried any Kung Fu my gut would throw my back out. Finally, and most significantly, I had a very satisfying social life before. My friends and I would go out and there were things to do every night of the week. Now a year later, I realize my true friends are the greatest people in the world because the fact I came out of my room, turned the lights on, and watched a movie with them still means something. They still are having a great time teasing me at my expense, however, which shows they still love me and they haven't changed.

These changes are miniscule, however, compared to what has happened in quite a few other people's lives. Some background... Blizzard created a game that you simply can not win. Not only that, the only way to "get better" is to play more and more. In order to progress, you have to farm your little heart out in one way or another: either weeks at a time PvPing to make your rank or weeks at a time getting materials for and "conquering" raid instances, or dungeons where you get "epic loot" (pixilated things that increase your abilities, therefore making you "better"). And what do you do after these mighty dungeons fall before you and your friend's wrath? Go back the next week (not sooner, Blizzard made sure you can only raid the best instances once a week) and do it again (imagine if Alexander the Great had to push across the Middle East every damn week).

What does this mean? Well, to our average "serious" player this equates to anywhere between 12 hours (for the casual and usually "useless" player) to honestly 10 hours a day, seven days a week for those "hardcore" gamers. During my stint, I was playing about 30 hours a week (and still finding it hard to keep up with my farming) and logging on during my work day in order to keep up with all the guild happenings and to do my scheduling and tracking for the raids. A lot of time went into the development of new policies which took our friendly and family-oriented guild further and further away from its roots but closer to the end goal. Honestly, what that end goal is I'm not totally sure - there is truly no end to the game and every time you feel like you're satisfied with your progress, another aspect of the game is revealed and, well, you just aren't as cool as you can be again.

There are three problems that arise from WoW: the time it requires to do anything "important" is astounding, it gives people a false sense of accomplishment, and when you're a leader, and get wrapped up in it, no matter how much you care or want people to care, you're doing the wrong thing.

First off, let's go back to the time it takes to accomplish anything in the game. To really be successful, you need to at least invest 12 hours a week, and that is bare minimum. From a leadership perspective, that 12 hours would be laughed at. That's the guy who comes unprepared to raid and has to leave half way through because he has work in the morning or is going out or some other thing that shows "lack of commitment". To the extreme there is the guildie who is always on and ready to help. The "good guildie" who plays about 10 hours a day and seven days a week. Yes, that's almost two full-time jobs. Funny, no one ever asks any questions, though.

The worst though are the people you know have time commitments. People with families and significant others. I am not one to judge a person's situation, but when a father/husband plays a video game all night long, seven days a week, after getting home from work, very involved instances that soak up hours and require concentration, it makes me queasy that I encouraged that. Others include the kids you know aren't doing their homework and confide in you they are failing out of high school or college but don't want to miss their chance at loot, the long-term girl/boyfriend who is skipping out on a date (or their anniversary - I've seen it) to play (and in some cases flirt constantly), the professional taking yet another day off from work to farm mats or grind their reputations up with in-game factions to get "valuable" quest rewards, etc... I'm not one to tell people how to spend their time, but it gets ridiculous when you take a step back.

The game also provides people with a false sense of security, accomplishment, and purpose. Anyone can be a superhero here if they have the time to put in. Not only that, a few times I've seen this breed the "rockstar" personality in people who have no confidence at all in real life. Don't get me wrong, building confidence is a good thing and something, if honed appropriately, the game can do very right. But in more than a few cases, very immature people with bad attitudes are catered to (even after insulting or degrading others "in public") because they are "better" than the rest. Usually this means they played a lot more and have better gear. I'd really hate to see how this "I'm better than you attitude" plays out in real life where it means jack how epic your loot is - when you say the wrong thing to the wrong person it's going to have repercussions and you can't just log out to avoid the effects of your actions.

And people put everything on the line for these accomplishments with which they associate much value. I know of children and spouses being forced to play and grind for their parents, threats of divorce, rampant neglect, failing grades in school, and thousands of dollars spent on "outsourcing" foreign help. For what, you ask? Honor. The desire to be the best for at least one week. To get the best loot in the game. What do these "heroes" receive? Why, cheers and accolades of course as they parade along in their new shiny gear... which is obsolete the first time they step into one of the premier instances. The accomplishment and sacrifice itself are meaningless a few days later. Then it's usually off to the races again.

Finally, when you're a leader there is a call (or more appropriately a demand) for success. Usually those you represent want to keep progressing. They want to keep improving. They want more access to the best things. It is on you to provide it. In my experience, when you fail to progress fast enough, waves ripple throughout the guild and people become dissatisfied. It's your fault, no matter what. Everything you've done to keep things fair and provide for everyone does not mean a damn thing. A few will stand up for you, but when you have 150 people who all want 150 different things, you end up listening to 150 voices complaining about the job you're doing. This volunteer job usually takes at least 10 extra hours a week (on top of regular playing). Towards the end of my year of service, I apparently couldn't do anything right with my class. I had to rotate people to make sure everyone was getting a fair shot. I wrote actual mathematical proofs the allowed for fair and effective (yes, both) raid distribution according to efficiency, speed, and guild class population. I even rotated myself more than any other class member. People still took it upon themselves to tell me what I was doing wrong (constantly) and how their way was more fair (usually for them).

The thing that kicked me in the ass more than anything else was I really cared if my guildies were getting what they wanted out of the experience. I truly thought my efforts would make them happy. I wanted to make a difference to them. The greedy and socially phobic high school kid I thought I could help through the game, all of the couples (both married and not) who were falling apart because of the game I thought I could rescue, the girl who was deeply wounded by a guy who left her for the game but was herself addicted I thought I could save, not to mention a host of others, I thought my efforts were helping. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks: I was providing them with an escape from their problems and nurturing the very thing that was holding them back. Oh yeah, it hit me like a ton of bricks after I had changed so much and lost enough of myself that the most wonderful girl I ever met broke up with me.

I remember clearly after fumbling around life for a few weeks that I dragged myself into the bathroom to get ready for work. I was tired because I was up until close to 2 AM raiding. Every week I read though email or I would run into one of my "real" friends and I'd hear "Andy, what's up, I haven't seen you in a while." I looked in the mirror and in a cinemaesque turn of events and a biblical moment of clarity, told myself "I haven't seen me in a while either."

That did it. I wanted to do the things I wanted to do again and be with the people who appreciated me even if I abandoned them for a year and sucked to high heaven as a friend. The prodigal son returned and my friends were happy. The best advice I got was from the girl who dumped me for being a jackass (and after I decided to really quit and be "myself again" became one of, if not my best friend in the entire world), who said "your real friends like you even when you screw up." It's true.

Funny side note was the reaction I got from the guild that I spent a year pouring my heart and soul into. I made my post in the guild forums saying I was leaving (half of it RPing - something that doesn't happen after you start raiding) and that it was time for me to move on. Three days later I didn't exist any more. The machine kept on moving without this gear. A few people asked me over email (and when I logged on to clean out the old bank) when I was coming back (I'm not going to). There are a few others I keep in contact with and am planning on going to visit sooner or later so I can hang out in person and they can finally meet me. But in the end being forgotten about so soon after still left a bittersweet taste. But one that was a lot easier to swallow than the one I chugged down every day for the better part of a year.

Don't get me wrong, WoW did a lot of things right. At times it was a fun game that allowed me to keep in contact with friends who lived far away. More importantly it introduced me to some of the best real life friends I've ever met. However, it did take an undeniable toll on me and is taking a far greater one on many, many people when taken too far.

Damn Rev, that was a pretty interesting read.

that guy is a noob

Translation: Waaaah! my guildies didn't stroke my over-inflated ego enough, waaaaaah!, time to try this other pack of suckers again waaaah!

Too many people take themselves too seriously in WoW. Some guilds are run like businesses, in that they have mission statements, entry criteria and evaluation processes.

Thats for sure. When I joined a raiding guild, I had to make a guild application. I then got currency for attending scheduled raids which I could spend on loot. It was so much like work it scared me, heck even the politics reminded me of work.

The skinner box is accurate, but a large proportion of the addiction for a lot of people is the guild and putting effort in for the good of the guild. It creates a dependency between people, they all need each other to get stuff done.

I think something was lost in your translation Xy.

Policy and Procedure would not be nearly as necessary if Blizzard would fix the damn drop rates. "DKP" only exists because of that...

But blizzard wants DKP to exists. They want to ensure that your guild has to organise all these systems to make things happen. Time you spend managing your guild outside of WoW with all the DKP systems and raid signups and guild forms is time invested in your guild. And time invested means you are less willing to quit.

Its easy to quit once you realize its not fun.

Policy and Procedure would not be nearly as necessary if Blizzard would fix the damn drop rates. "DKP" only exists because of that...

Blizzard doesn't want to increase the drop rate on items, they want you playing the game for as long as they can help make you. That's the behavioral conditioning coming into play. At level 1 you get heaps of small rewards, but as you level up the rewards become less and less frequent, thus making you play longer and harder to reach those rewards.

So, the end result is that players end up wasting their lives playing something that gives them, in the long term, nothing.

Its easy to quit once you realize its not fun.

It sure is.

Its easy to quit once you realize its not fun.

QFT. WoW had me down and out for quite some time, quit work stoped talking to people. But i realised, WoW this is boring. so i quit. The end. never looked back.

quit work stoped talking to people

....................

'never saw the point of this :/


Dungeons and Dragons was frowned upon long before my time for a reason

I quit WoW last night and cancelled my subsription seeing as the 13th Nov was the next pay date. Deleted it of my drive and cancelled my Paypal account also since I wont be buying gold anymore.

Feels good, although it was weird logging out for the last time. Sorta like going away on holidays and then leaving to come home on the last day but you don't wanna go.

LOL

well done Rev - I'll see if I can top that (on a personal level) this month by quitting smoking... ;)

Weak Rev, weak.
I have to quit cold turkey when I go to Canada in 2 weeks.. bah!

Infact, Im meant to be doing my resume right now, but instead, I'm gonna go log all my characters and add up my /played :)
(of which has dwindled..)

bbs!

So as it happen.. I got halfway through checking my /played on my chars, when I got to my 51 hunter at the AV entrance -- ohh, I'll just check to see how a random game is going.

20mins later, Horde finally wins a friggen game, and now I get an IBS or a new bow..


Anyway, 122 days /played total over all chars.
Fulltime work and a girlfriend -- guess I had an ok run :)

sad heme

get away while you still can