Well.. how did all you year 12 f***ers go?

I haven't recieved mine yet... I'll get it in the mail traditional stylez on Monday. From Nudgee College, only 1 guy got an OP 1 and it wasn't the Dux of the School, i find that amusing =D

How did you all go?

Only 1 guy got an OP1 at nudgee? f*** me. 10 grand+ a year u'd want the school to do better than that.

Grammar gets anywhere from 25-55 a year!

Good luck c***s, don't stress too much if it's not as good as u hoped - unlike what the schools like u to believe, its not the end of the world. far from it.

I never wanted to go to uni as the course wasnt for me, I wanted private study and certs, which I did. Interestingly enough, i got an OP of 25, simply because I was lazy and didnt go to school all that often. Iv worked in a few places, some of them pretty high up roles, and never, have I been asked what my OP was in hs :)

OP really defines what UNI course you get into I reckon.

14

I had very little drive and put in next to no effort...Maybe if i knew what i wanted to do it would have given me some insperation to work. But i didnt have any idea two years ago and still dont :/

i didnt even finish school and ive never been asked anything about schooling in a job interview.

also did private study and certs not that i use em either way.

I still believe OPs are over rated and in a lot of peoples cases, useless :P

I left school in grade 10 and then did a cert of tert prep. I still got a better OP than my brother who did upto grade 12 and another year after of study to get a better OP

funny how the people do badly always say OP's aren't important...

and how is it i get to see my OP ?
I'm not all that fussed, i can wait til monday, It won't be anything special anyway

OP means jack s***. Look at me, I'm a cainer and my OP was average. Probably cause I was more interested in computers than studying s*** I found not important and boring.

funny how the people do badly always say OP's aren't important...

It's not that. It's basically just that after a year of easy study in some arts course or somehting u can upgrade into any course u want anyway.

And going straight into a harder course 1st year out of uni would suck anyway.

It's basically just that after a year of easy study in some arts course or somehting u can upgrade into any course u want anyway.

i suppose if you prepared to sacrifice the time, then yes. i did law straight outta school. f*** doing arts first or some pinko s***.

^beaten to it

umm studying more bulls*** that your not interested in would suck. so if you want to leave school and start a university degree in something that your interested in, op is important.

last edited by d0mino at 12:51:24 17/Dec/05

OP's are only for uni entry and even then if you have enough money it doesn't matter

Yeh, but there is so much more to life than University. So I say to school leavers don't stress because there is lots of careers you can do which don't require a good OP. And even if you really wanted to do a Uni course and you didn't get in, there is other ways to get in, or maybe you should think, is this really the course I wanna do?

You don't need a degree to make money or be a success, or prove your intelligence. Don't waste your time and money doing a course because mummy and daddy want you to, or for the wrong reasons. I know so many people with degrees who don't even use them and still paying off HECS.

I got really depressed when I didn't get into the EXACT course I wanted. I missed out on IT @ QUT by 1 rank. But looking back, I couldn't give a s***. I will never do an IT degree, and with 7 years experience I don't even need one now. I went to Uni for a while but I got bored and got a job.

10 grand+ a year

lol sif Nudgee is that expensive. Have you seen how many black people go there?

And I think OP's are important, even if it is only so you can get in to uni. If you want a high paying job, you pretty much have to go to uni.

And for all the people that go "who cares, you can upgrade", upgrading is a huge waste of effort and money... at ~$600/semester/subject, f*** wasting a whole year to get somewhere that you could have got for free.

If you couldn't have been f***ed putting in a tiny bit of effort at school, why would you suddenly change your study habits because you're at uni where you have about 100x more freedom and chances are will be drunk/stoned every day anyway.

Upgrading is s***house.

That said, uni isnt everything. If what you love doing isn't a high paying job that requires uni, who gives a s***, it's what you love doing.

i'm a douche and didn't change my pin or something, so i have to wait til monday.

I got an op 15 and still got into uni same course i wanted transferred over to fagget qut after a year and got full credits.

If you want a high paying job, you pretty much have to go to uni.

You dont really believe that do you?

Believe it? It's true.
Sure there are avenues where you can earn lots having not gone to uni, but statistically the majority of people in high paying jobs would have gone to uni. It's a fact. Qualified people get paid more than unqualified people. I'm not saying you have to, but you've got a better chance.

depends on the company, the company i work for pay more on personality and yoru ability to sell yourself rather then what qualifications you have. and out of all the people ive met that have completed uni id say 5% actually work in the field they studdied. and the 5% that are working in there fields would use piss all that they actually learnt.

OPs are only important if you plan on going to uni. That being said, I know a few people who managed to sneak though the gates with OPs > than 12 and they have real problems in many technical courses.

Who was the only person from nudgee who got the OP1? I find that hilarious. Even though I go to nudgee.

lol, High School scores. Ahhhh, what a load of s***e :)

I got an ENTER of something like 51, I'm currently finishing uni, getting HDs in third year subjects.
Meanwhile all the people who got 80-90+ have either dropped out (or been kicked out) of their courses etc - in fact, of the people I went to high school with, I know of four who finished their degrees (our of 140).

Add to that that I'm going to graduate on plenty more than 65k...

High School scores mean s*** because they only refer to how much work you put in. If they want them to be taken seriously, you need two scores - one for effort, one for natural talent. I really couldn't give a toss about the former. When I put someone on five things at once, I want them to be able to cope. Not come in 6 weeks late.

I got an op of 3 in 1999 and went to tafe to do diploma of it network eingeenering, dropped out with three modules to go and went on my merry little way, no one cares what your op was except uni's, so dont stress

depends on the company, the company i work for pay more on personality and yoru ability to sell yourself rather then what qualifications you have. and out of all the people ive met that have completed uni id say 5% actually work in the field they studdied. and the 5% that are working in there fields would use piss all that they actually learnt.

Well I think the point is that you are not in a high paying job. I dont care if you are getting 80K a year. Its still not high paying. (relatively speaking)

And thats right, the degree you do doesnt have to relate to your job. A very large percentage of people in the banking sector did not do economics/accounting (for example). The degree shows your level of intelligence and ability to learn. Most of what you do in many jobs is learnt on the job, however, they still look at what you did at uni to grade your aptitude.

last edited by qmass at 19:15:59 17/Dec/05

If you want a high paying job, you pretty much have to go to uni.

f***ing rofl

Thats nice Raven, but what degree is it?

and out of all the people ive met that have completed uni id say 5% actually work in the field they studdied

I currently have 2 Electrical Engineering jobs.

One job requires very little engineering experience and renders most of my previous study completely useless as all of the required information is learned at the job. The mentality among that group is that "uni is not useful". This job pays very well, but is quite boring ... quite possibly the buildup to a mid-life crisis.

The other job I have relies heavily on what I have learned at uni. I would not have lasted long if I hadn't put in some mad effort in trying to get a 7 for a few courses, and in the process became very knowledgable in the fields that I am working in. This job doesn't pay as well as the other, but damn it is enjoyable and I can't see myself anywhere else!

Saying that uni is useless full-stop is a load of s***, as it really depends on what kind of job you are after. There are always jobs that pay well and don't draw on uni knowledge that much ... but everyone is different and not everyone will enjoy them equally. Anyway, uni is meant to make you learn how to learn, and to formally "prove" that you are goal oriented (not the best way) ... not to give you any specific knowledge, despite what lecturers might want to make you think.

its all relitive really. i got a 14 and work with guys who got 1's and 25's and we all earn the same, i also know alof of very high earning ($250k+/yr) people (including my boss) who never went to uni or even finished high school. The thing i've found if you want to make money you have to be good at what you do, if you want to make lots and lots of money, you have to own a bussiness and have good business skills - which i believe your born with and dont learn.

but either way schools do put way too much "life or death" emphasis on it, so just chill out :)

things like law/med/engineering/science u need good OP's


trades and some management and stuff u dont really need a good OP

and if u wanna spend time working up through a company, desk job s***, then u dont really need a good OP



uni is the best part of life imo, the partying, the people and of course some of the content, so i would advise if u want that lifestyle, then try to get a good OP

I got a 1, went to uni and ended up in a course that only required an 8. I now work in marketing for a property developer and I don't think Uni taught me jack s***. That said, I had a great 5 years at uni and despite the fact that I learny nothing, I wouldn't be where I am now and doing what I do now without my degree and/or OP.

When I finish my MBA I'll get more pay instantly purely because I have an MBA. Nice system!

If you want a high paying job, you pretty much have to go to uni.

f***ing rofl

Exi, builders who drive HSV's arn't highly paid...


I think that it used to be a lot easier to reach high positions without formal qualifications, even if the qualifications don't mean s*** when doing your job. These days there are so many people competing for the jobs there needs to be a way to sort people out. Sure, there will always be the people who are good at what they do and will be rewarded for it, but in most cases, in the professional world, you need a piece of paper to get somewhere.

Hahaha, how did I know that Eds would go on about how he got a 25 and how much he rates himeself. Search every thread on OPs and he does it in every one. Get over youself dips***.

Also, how much of the degree you use on the job depends on the field/job you're working in. It's stupid to say "I work in job x and got degree y and it was useless!". How about you study what interests you, get a job that motivates you and stop comparing penis size over a gaming forum.

Also, yes you can make an assload of money without a degree, and you can make s*** all with one. Reload! doesn't mean to say you can't. He means that on the average, the uni leaver with a degree will earn more than someone without. There's money in anything as long as you do it well. Now can all you f***wits stop hi-jacking the OP thread and let the gr12's boast/winge about their OPs.

Congrats to those who achieved OP's with which they're happy. Bad luck to those who didn't.

As for the OP discussion, no you don't need a great OP, but it sure does help. It amuses me that people who bummed around at school think that they're somehow going to buckle up and actually do work at uni. People that are able to do that are incredibly rare.

Spidz what degree did u do and why did you not do Law, Med or Eng with your OP1?

Kinda s***s me that ppl who are obviously very intelligent waste an opportunity like that.

Also to the ppl who think that making 50k is s*** money ... please what planet are you guys living on? ffs?

Maybe he didnt wanna do any of them because hes not interested in them.

High School scores mean s*** because they only refer to how much work you put in.

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most employers value someone who works harder than someone who is smarter

what cs_master said.


Also considering I've been out of uni 1year now, and I'm on a +50K package, I'd say 50K aint much but its alot more than alot of people w/o a degree are on in there early 20s.

Also considering my manager makes ~ 400K there is some money in engineering.

Believe me 50 grand a yr is alot of money. Most ppl are lucky to be making 35k.

P.S No one is worth 400k a yr

if your decisions can make or lose 5 or 10 million a year than 400k a year is worth it

if your decisions can make or lose 5 or 10 million a year than 400k a year is worth it

No, not really.

you don't understand business then

Spidz what degree did u do and why did you not do Law, Med or Eng with your OP1?

Kinda s***s me that ppl who are obviously very intelligent waste an opportunity like that.

Also to the ppl who think that making 50k is s*** money ... please what planet are you guys living on? ffs?

I started off in Law and hated it. I ended up with Bachelor of Business with Marketing & Media Majors, Bachelor of Arts with Journalism & Poltical Science Majors and a generic Bachelor of Economics.

I wouldn't get out of bed for $50k a year.

you don't understand business then

Good, I'm in the same boat as you then.

I got a 12. Very happy with it as i never did homework or tried at school and got that. It gets me into the course i want (Bachelor of Business) then year after that i will upgrade to Law. So im happy with my OP its got me where i want to go. w00000

op1 uai/enter of 99.8 representing

sup

50k a year is more then enough to happily live on. I shudder to think what it would be like where 50k a year still isnt enough! :D

Hahaha, how did I know that Eds would go on about how he got a 25 and how much he rates himeself. Search every thread on OPs and he does it in every one. Get over youself dips***.

Let me give you a reality check.

A) There was no claiming on how much I rate myself.
B) Yes, I have prolly posted the same in each OP thread, my views havnt changed.
C) I dont see what I have to get over besides your slut of a mother each day.

I was basicly saying that not having a OP or a low OP is not the end of the world. It is possible to have be successful and happy in a job and also make quite a bit of money while your at it.
If you wish to be a narrow minded f***** and think your so great if you have a low OP then thats your choice, but dont try and bring me down to your level of ignorance. I may not be a brain surgeon, but Im happy with my job, with my paycheck and with my qualifications.

So in closing.....blow it out your ass

Haha, my mum has more class than to settle for a fatty like you.

It doesn't matter, the thread was about how gr12's this year have gone. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones views on OPs, uni or anything else. Yet you had to turn around and be all "OPs dont mean s***, I mean look at me I didn't try at school and I'm so successful I can brag about it on a gaming forum"

So here's a reality check for you:

1) Noone cares what you think about OPs
2) Noone cares that you think you have a good job
3) Most people know that OPs aren't the be all and end all of anything. Noone is arguing they are. So why don't you read people's posts for a minute and stop spouting your bulls***.

Now back to what the thread is about, people's OPs this year. No more crap out of you fatty.

C) I dont see what I have to get over besides your slut of a mother each day.

you lost any credibility you might have had with that remark, not even remotely funny or insulting, just you being a tard

Yeah i got an OP 11, that was almost 2 years ago now, amazing how time flys!

I think its only necessary for university, as it definately depicts what courses you can get accepted into. Apart from that its totally useless.

no f***en joke, every year this time usually, when op's come out.... Eds comes out, to post his bulls***. someone should do a search on it...

man you are obviously bitter on the education system cause you got a 25, and you've copped heaps of s*** about it. now you are out to prove something. and ahhh you were probably also bullied when you were in school, cause of your obesity.

just relaaaaaaaaax..... who cares...

50k a year is more then enough to happily live on. I shudder to think what it would be like where 50k a year still isnt enough! :D

Buy a house, a nice car, have a few kids. Where'd that $50k go ?

the majority of this forum probably wont get married

LOL internet stereotype!

Buy a house, a nice car, have a few kids. Where'd that $50k go ?

Into an oversized house, sitting on an expensive, unnessesary plot of land with a overpriced car and a couple of spoilt brats :P

amyescence = Einstein.

you got an op 25 eds? lol, so you're a dumb c*** and a fat c***

Hahahahahahahahaha

To start with, im still a little overweight but these days, im not fat anymore.
second, arnt you hunter? didnt it take you like 2 years to get a job in IT as a frigging delivery driver? AAHAHAAHAAHAHAH

Hahaha OP 25. I reckon it would be harder to get a 25 than it is to get a 1

fpot = f***pot

to get an OP of 25 u must have a negative IQ

No, not really. You just have to attend class and put some effort in. I spend most of my year 12 senior working. Went on to work for 4 years doing that stuff, then moved back into IT where I still am.

I bet your parents were proud

Anyone who thinks an OP is an accurate measure of intelligence has a negative IQ.

heh, my parents were pissed :P

they dont care anymore tho.

It is a general indication of how much effort that person puts into study. It is not as important as everyone thinks but if you get a good OP it saves you those few years f***ing around to get into whatever course you want to do.

Anyone who says it isn't important is just cut because they got a s*** OP.

Hey, I never said its not important, i just said its not the end of the world :P I understand that people want to study and go to uni and do stuff, but myself and others I know didnt worry about OPs and uni and still are doing well.

i got an op of 16

i took about 50% of school time off
i changed subjects constantly
i didnt do homework or study
and the only subject i got a VHA in was ipt.

oh yeah, and i did a semester with only 4 op subjects in, so that mightve f***ed it a little..

i got 1 vha, 1 ha, 2 sas and 1 vla

but i blame the vla (maths b) on the teacher, and i dont think anyone in our class passed, while the other maths b class with a different teacher almost all passed.

edit: oh and in order to graduate with my amount of time off i had to see a psychiatrist and get special consideration

last edited by Jeramiah at 14:15:39 18/Dec/05

what use is an OP in a coffin with cat5 wrapped around your neck

Into an oversized house, sitting on an expensive, unnessesary plot of land with a overpriced car and a couple of spoilt brats :P

50k is a pretty low-average wage for professionals. Most graduate level professionals start near 50k a year, if not more.

Most graduate level professionals start near 50k a year, if not more.

Depends on what they do tho really. I know a few IT grads that left expecting $50,000 grand a year but can only get jobs doing level 1 help desk and what not because they lack real world experiance.

I dont know about other things tho, like business and marketing and what not.

^ Translation: Don't talk it up until you've actually achieved something.

50k is a pretty low-average wage for professionals. Most graduate level professionals start near 50k a year, if not more.

hahaha you're funny.

OP 2 - represent!

Still, I know that my cousin scored a 14 (she was sick for a lot of the year but didn't want to repeat as she was already a year older) and after two years of messing around in psych, she had upgraded to the equivilent of a 4. It kinda degrades it then. Either it should count a lot, like it does in high school, and so it's harder to upgrade, or it doesn't, and high school's should stop telling you otherwise

id like to start off at 50k as a f***ing IT grauduate but the reality of things is I would need about 2-3 years full time experience on top of the experience I already have and some certs to actualy get that o_O f***ing IT is s*** really, need to get an MBA into me

Well im coming out of school with whatever OP I get tomorrow, and i Certificate III in Information Technology. Someone hook me up with a s***ty helpdesk job or some such thing to get me started in the world hey? That would be lovely.

Upgrading isn't necessarily a waste of time and money. If you didn't get a high enough OP for the course you wanted, enrolling in a similar course at the same Uni is the way to go. I say the same Uni for 2 reasons:

1. You are likely to get more credit when you upgrade.
2. Some Unis let you upgrade to another of their programs after 6 months. You definately have to wait at least a year to upgrade to another University though.

For example, if you didn't get into Business, enrolling in a Arts will pretty much let you choose all the same courses you'd be doing in 1st year Business anyway. If you didn't get into Law, enrol in Business. Didn't get into Engineering, enrol in Science etc.

Also, you don't have to get awesome results to upgrade. Usually it's a matter of just passing everything and you can pretty much upgrade to anything excluding Law, Dentistry, etc, where you'd probably have to get 5's and 6's.

So don't worry if you didn't get a high enough OP, it's very easy to upgrade and takes up less time and money than some people think.

I didn't put any effort in Highschool. Ended up with a 13 (Which I was actually happy with) If you procrastinate in Highschool, Uni wont be any different, usually worse.
Got a GPA of 5.2 after 4 years, With 2 2's in there. (Having a 5 hours gap, for Surveying Students, and cheap beer at the bar is a Bad idea Mmm'Kay?)

Got a good OP? Great!
Got a Bad OP? Thats too bad, better luck in future ventures.

Also, person in my course with OP of 4 was on GPA 4.1 (But finished >_>)
OP isn't the be-all and end-all. Nice, not necessary.

As others have said, Sif be an Art's bum for a year though.

Buy a house, a nice car, have a few kids. Where'd that $50k go

My daddy makes about that....
That 50k went into 2 4WD's, Work Ute, Ski Boat, Big house, Lots and lots of Big Family Vacations, Big block of land, Shed full of Water Skiing gear, crap loads of tools and countless other things.

I'd be more then Happy to make 50k a year (After i'm out of Uni I should be on slightly more)

(Also, Mum works as a Teacher, but they get s*** pay, so it doesn't count)

last edited by Scooter at 17:29:16 18/Dec/05

If you don't think OPs are important and you cbf getting a good education then welcome to the working poor in 10 years time.

If you don't think OPs are important and you cbf getting a good education then welcome to the working poor in 10 years time.

Wrong.

hahaha you're funny.

Pretty much, any government graduate program starts at $40-45k, and governments pay on the low scale of professional pay. I work for a consultancy organisation (as a consultant) and if I went to full time (I’m still a full time student) I’d be on nearly $60k. What position do you hold? I could be wrong, but weren’t you an office admin who holds no degree?

Looking at the Hays salary survey programmers get on average $50k per year (range from 40k-50k).

id like to start off at 50k as a f***ing IT grauduate but the reality of things is I would need about 2-3 years full time experience on top of the experience I already have and some certs to actualy get that o_O f***ing IT is s*** really, need to get an MBA into me

I haven’t even finished honours and if I move my part time work to full time I would be well over 50k a year.

I’d steer clear of Masters by coursework programs unless you really understand the differences between the masters by coursework and the bachelor level program. Also, something to consider; is the amazing amount of university students graduating from business programs flooding the market? How many more business students can entry-level business support?

Don’t get me wrong, a Masters program can be pretty useful. However, you have to be careful not to go for a Masters program just because it sounds cool.

(Also, Mum works as a Teacher, but they get s*** pay, so it doesn't count)

Both my Mum and my Step dad are teachers, they are both on ~$60k a year.

I’d be on nearly $60k. What position do you hold?

Well not everyone goes into government work.

elvis with a degree and got a job as an IT manager getting paid $25k a year.

Way to encourage people into the IT industry

*edit and you are right, I hold no degree and I got paid more than that as a junior*

last edited by Kat at 19:06:33 18/Dec/05

i got an 11, and two years later i make 40k in I.T. @ 19. doing some more cisco/ms certs this year (paid for by my employeer).. lovin it =P

i have paid $0 for qualifications thus far, bar 6mths of uni in a course i hated. i feel bad for ppl who spend time and money in IT degrees when experience counts for so much more.

get a job at the bottom, and get qualifications while you work - most of the time your employeer will pay for them!

in two years time, i will s*** all over anyone who spent the last 4 years at uni :P and i'll have been earning $$$ this whole time, instead of spending it.

that said i dont recommend f***ing up your OP, as it would make s*** alot easier. why pay for upgrades n s*** when you got it all free?

things is mdma once you start going up the ladder you really need those tertiary qualifications sometimes so dont forget that


Typo, for the type of work I do and plan to get into, development and proof of my buiusness skills would be good, i mean ive just finished my uni and dont really look forward to going back there but i forsee having to go back sometime down the track

yeh i might get my degree in a few years, part time while i work.. maybe! :P doubt ill need it tho

Believe me 50 grand a yr is alot of money. Most ppl are lucky to be making 35k.

f*** that.
I have absolutely 0 qualifications, am 18 years old and earn $22K/year working 23 hours a week in a job that seriously any piece of s*** could get. Unless you're a fkn missionary or something wack helping people in the middle of nowhere, if you're happy earning 35K a year you're a s***c***.

Stop being an arrogant barstard, you might be earning alright money but your still doing a s*** job. A plebs job.

reload!: You are so cool. 35k is 'okay' money. Sure everyone would like more but 35k is more realistic than 50k

I'm 22 got a OP17 did a diploma in IT couldnt find a IT job work for this hearing aid company as a Store Person now i am 2nd in charge of production!!!

maybe elvis only gets 25k cos he's a dumb f*****?

Well not everyone goes into government work.

At professional levels, Government pay is on the lower end of the scale. I.E. private sector work pays much more than government.

elvis with a degree and got a job as an IT manager getting paid $25k a year.

Most of my friends who have graduated are all on 40k per year or more. Even one of my friends who really pretty s***ty at the IT side of my degree have managed to land IT jobs.

Between the Hays salary survey (and other salary surveys), the experience of other graduates in both IT and SE and my own personal experiences, I’d have to suggest that maybe 50k per year really is on the low-average scale for professional graduate level employees.

reload!: You are so cool. 35k is 'okay' money. Sure everyone would like more but 35k is more realistic than 50k

35k is unqualified white collar positions like office admins and even that is pretty average for them theses days. f***, you don’t even have to re-pay HECS if you are under 32k.


last edited by typo at 20:41:35 18/Dec/05

ypo, for the type of work I do and plan to get into, development and proof of my buiusness skills would be good, i mean ive just finished my uni and dont really look forward to going back there but i forsee having to go back sometime down the track

Fair enough, but is an MBA more beneficial than a Bachelor of Business? I mean an MBA is up front and expensive (post graduate costs not undergraduate prices) and you only get half a degree worth of knowledge.

If you already know a bunch of related stuff or have already been working in a simular position then I could understand why an MBA would be more useful than a degree. However, it sounds like you already have a degree, so maybe an MBA is a good place to start.

I just think that many of the masters of coursework students would have been better doing other studies.

#edit: Now with new and improved spelling!

last edited by typo at 21:19:36 18/Dec/05

i think you should learn how to spell you retard

Tiny/Kat: You're both really quite stupid aren't you. You completely missed his point. He's saying it's a pleb job that anyone can do and that's why it's s*** money. Cause anyone can do it. Whereas if you educate yourself and work hard you can earn s***loads more. That's why he's saying he wouldn't be happy with that sort of money.

i think you should learn how to spell you retard

We can still use crappy grammar, right?

Meh, OP10 here (three years ago) and I'm in my third year of a course I really don't give a s*** about and I get by off youth allowance. My aim is to get my Ba, then go work in Japan for a few years to brush up on my language skills then see where I want to go from there. I would love to go into IT but that's a chump's game atm. The problem these days is that kids are getting into uni to avoid life, cos they're not ready for the real world. If for some reason I got kicked from uni, I'd try to find an electrician apprenticeship. Good $$$ there and a wide variety of work you can do with it.

I put in sweet f*** all effort in HS and didn't do dumbass subjects (I did english, maths B, chemistry, biology, japanese and economics). I still put in 0 effort and get passes and credits. Who was it that was talking about natural talent Vs hard work? I'd say I get by on natural talent more than anything. I need to find a job taht doesn't need hard work ^_^

reload, where did I say I was happy with 35k a yr?

I think you guys would be shocked what the average hard working battler has to live on these days, in the real world.

I got an OP12, many eons ago, which is pretty much useless :(

Stop being an arrogant barstard, you might be earning alright money but your still doing a s*** job. A plebs job

hey if it puts food on the table... right tiny?

Way to make my point for me tiny and kat you complete f***tards. Taggs got it right. My point was any piece of s*** (ie me) can make that kinda money. Whereas someone with an education (clearly not you) can easily make more. duh

Typo, shut up with the 50k a year is normal for graduate line .. you obviously speak from personal experience alone and/or all your mates are in IT/engineers etc.

Science, ag science, vets, business, law graduates = ~35k is the norm (but im sure there are plenty of exceptions both ways .. from serving fries to earning big bikkies)

I couldnt believe it when my vet mate told me his 32,000 salary was normal and would be for a couple of years

Hit up dentistry, their avg starting salary for grads is 50k+ if I remember correctly. Also, don't get too caught up on averages, there is great money in everything as long as you do it well.

At Ausy Post as just a lowly box kicker I was being paied about $18/hour. No skills needed at all.

So for a 7 hour day, 5 day a week. That is roughly $32,000 per year. Nothing bar a clean drivers license and somewhat decent apperance was all that was needed.

However, who wants to kick boxes around for their living, boring.

I'm currently doing an applied science course at uni, majoring in biotech. I'm expecting a lab monkey entry level job for around $35k-$40k a year at most. At least the work will be more satisfing to me.

No point doing a job that pays $60k/year of which you hate every day of it. Life is about living, not earning as much money as possible.

Forget your OP scores, does it really matter if you go onto uni and finish a course in 3 years? Does it make that much of a differance if you do an Arts course and transfer over to a course you want later? Not really.

Sparkies can get paid well, no uni needed for that.

A Trade does not mean s*** pay. It often means a little more hands on WORK, you know pull a sweat more often. However they can pay really well. If you have the talent to get paied well from uni, you also probably have the talent to be paid well from a Trade.

Going to uni dosnt mean a good paying job, far from it. You will only be paied what you are worth, unless you are really good at talking yourself up and giving favourable false impressions.

Also with the various IR laws coming into place, how much you expect to get paid could change greatly in a few short years.

So dont do something for however much money it COULD bring in, do something for what you really enjoy!


update: My spelling is bad.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 02:34:18 19/Dec/05

paied?

reload, what are you studying currently or going to be studying?

I have an IT degree, and I hear a lot of people - including on this thread - say the familiar line "I didn't go to uni and I run the IT dept at my local hospital / bank branch / high school etc, on 35k plus, therefore IT degree is a waste of time"

The point is not that an IT degree is a waste of time, but it is almost entirely the wrong qualification for the kind of job where all you have to do is replace broken motherboards and remove spyware for people too clueless not to get owned.

IT degree is not required for helpdesk type work, computer sales, server administration, writing web pages, or running cat 5 cable through ceilings. These things require experience, knowledge of the products, and I guess some kind of people skills in the case of sales.

The IT degree (assuming you took a halfway decent selection of subjects) is a fairly even mix between computer science concepts (operating systems, compilers, data structures, algorithms, whatever) and practical applications.

This gives one an understanding of computer science that might lead to you being able to invent something cool, or apply for some jobs whose specific requirements include a degree. But by all means, if you have no need for this kind of knowledge then you may as well have fun and do a history degree instead.

No idea, this was my first year out of school and I'm still trying to figure it out for something long term. I'm interested in and enjoy journalism so I'm studying that in the meantime atm at UQ (this was my first year) but as part of an arts degree, not journalism (only got an op 7). That said, 95% of journalists earn bugger all.

I wish I had worked harder at school so I could have been doing journalism/law rather than an arts degree. It sucks that school seems so s*** at the time but pretty much the instant you finish, you realise how easy it was. Unfortunately no matter how many people you hear it from, you never believe it until it happens. I wish I could go back in time and kick myself in the balls and make myself work that tiny bit harder that it would have taken to get an op 3.

I see where you're going, but I never said I am going to be a millionaire nor that I'm amazing, simply that uni opens more options for high income and that anyone can earn $35K/year.

I don't believe a degree is a necessity for a lot of jobs, but it definately gives you an edge. If two guys go for a job, and their skills and experience is pretty much the same, but one has done a degree and the other hasn't then the guy with the degree has the advantage. $45k is a perfectly reasonable entry level wage for an IT graduate, I saw jobs advertised looking for graduates that were paying that last year when I was job hunting (and that was in Brisbane). Of course, if you just scraped through your IT degree with a GPA of 4, you can't go out expecting to get paid $45k. Just graduating doesn't guarantee you a nice job and nice money, you have to actually work to get that.

Also Kat, if your man is only earning $25k a year as an IT manager, then thats just ridiculous, he should be handing in notice tomorrow and finding himself a new job. I was getting $30k as a codemonkey at my last job, and that was an insultingly low pay even just for a programmer. Only reason I took it was I was promised multiple payrises over the following year, the guys I was working with were awesome, and the work was pretty interesting. The shine wore off pretty fast though when the payrises never eventuated and the interesting work evaporated and turned into web dev. But wow, $25k, you could earn more than that delivering pizzas.

i mean f***. im half way through my degree, and i got a job earning 33k a year. im hoping that while studying i can work my way up and be on a reasonable salary straight out of my degree, but hjave that paper to back up what i want to do in later life

I think 50K is on the high side of graduate wages. Even a Doctor gets just $47K first year out. would have thought roughly $40K would have been more the norm these days for graduate pay.

Anyway, my life story for anyone who cares:

OP1
Straight into Bachelor of Engineering (Software).
Graduated with Class IIA Honours.
Picked up a job at ~$40K (2 years ago).
Now on $70K.

Engineering is a good area, and is absolutely booming at the moment. I'm so glad I have engineering qualifications rather than IT - IT grads really seem to get the short straw these days.

we do

my story

TE score 905 (could have been higher, but i was a slacker, also was rebelling against my oldies who were both teachers)

did bach of it (also was bach of applied science computing)

finished degree, coudlnt get ANY IT work anywhere
applied for everything under the sun (government/private)

ended up taking job where i work now, running printers
worked hard, did shift work for a few years
progressed to processing (running scripts the programmers write)
then to actual programming in IT department

money is s***
people are awesome
conditions were awesome, but changing (to s***)

a lot of guys in our IT department dont have degrees (or went to grifftafe, same thing, lolz)

i dont find my degree to be of any use to me wehre i am, but i guess if i leave and go work elsewhere, it will be nice to have the piece of paper behind me, with the experience now

I did my HSC so we get a UAI.

I did s*** all in highschool and still managed to do really well, makes you think what could have been achieved with a little effort.

I agree with alot of what has been said on here. I dont think UAIs or OPs are completely accurate reflections of intelligence, its more about knowing how the system works, what you got to do, and playing it. Esp in the HSC.

But yeah theres alot to life, so unless you needed a really high (or low) mark to go straight into your dream course at uni, there are other ways around things.

I like to know that I had fun in highschool (the little I was actually there), rather than achieving academic status.

Well my OP1 also earnt me an Australian Student's Prize, and that $2000 was nice :)

yeah orbi, i got an OP3 without doing any work, so when i found out that i couldve put a tiny bit of effort in and got a high OP1 (and the $2000)i was spewing :(

last edited by Tung at 10:37:16 19/Dec/05

Do people understand what an average is?

Only those who went to university.

OP 5 -> IT at UQ -> Earning decent wage.

I jumped through all the hoops and I'm happy with where I am at.

when did you do IT at UQ thunder?

my gf just finished there this semester (dragged on for at least 12 months too long :p) plus i knew a few others there

elvis with a degree and got a job as an IT manager getting paid $25k a year.

Not to bag you and elvis kat but... $25K a year?? Is that just salary without calculating in perks? The worst workplace i've ever been in was run by a guy who was too cheap to buy a decent link(for an isp) and even he didn't go lower than $12.50 an hour for code monkeys which is $26K a year. A manager should be getting at least half that again surely.

Do people understand what an average is?

Only those who went to university.

lol

OP 17 for me.

All fun and games =D

I only know one person who got an op of 1 and he also scored within the top 10 in some national tests and then went on to get a double degree in some i.t. course and after all that he wound up being in charge of the layout on a porn website. He is not getting paid much money.
I didn’t finish high school and I didn’t go to uni but I run my own companies now and make a fair bit of money (a lot more then 50k).
I think it matters more what you do after all your schooling is finished rather then how well you do at school.
Also what matters a lot is the standard of living that makes you happy. A lot of people are saying 50k a year is good and I am sure a lot of people would live very happily on a lot less but then there are a lot of people like myself for instance that would think 50k is mediocre. It all boils down to what you desire in life and the amount of effort you put into getting what you want.

the idea is, do well and make it easier for yourself.

90% perspiration - 10% inspiration

Also, more money != more happiness.

Thats nice Raven, but what degree is it?

Bachelor of Science (Computer Science & Software Engineering) (Honors)

Sure, money can't buy happiness, but it can buy a pretty close approximation.

I think 50K is on the high side of graduate wages. Even a Doctor gets just $47K first year out. would have thought roughly $40K would have been more the norm these days for graduate pay.

I don't.

Most grads I know (well, the ones that didn't just scrape through with passes) are on high 50s and low 60s. Maybe the market is different in Brisvegas to Melbourne?

Also, more money != more happiness.

quoted for truth.

I have a friend who is currently a diving instructor in the galapagos islands. He's making enough to live comfortably and is having the time of his life. Whenever he sends me photos, i feel as though i'm squandering my 20's working in a dull office, just watching a number in my bank account increase.

I know that money means security later on, but i just feel like a bit of a sheep following lifeplan 101 when there is so much out there see and experience.

just watching a number in my bank account increase.

Yours is increasing? Lucky sod!

you only live onece money is good but it isnt happyness

My wage isn't anything special mind you as it's pretty standard for the amount of experience that I have. But even then I'm happy with it.

I graduated in 2001 and it took me 4 years for my expensive piece of paper (BInfTech Hons). I'm pretty sure that I was in the same year as orbitor.

I wish I could go back in time and kick myself in the balls and make myself work that tiny bit harder that it would have taken to get an op 3

Reload, you only need a GPA of 5.25 to upgrade to Law @ UQ. Play your cards right and that's definately doable. Chuck in a few really easy Arts courses if you have to.

Also, I don't agree with the fact that you need awesome grades to get a decent paying job once you graduate. I think that networking and contacts will get you a good job more than anything.

last edited by Rips# at 16:46:32 19/Dec/05

Maybe the market is different in Brisvegas to Melbourne?

It is, but while we are talking about Graduate level salaries:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~m.holmes/misc/GradStats_1.jpg

As you can see from that, the average graduate wage is about $40K.

My rant:

1. Money CAN'T NECESSARILY buy you happiness (though for SOME ppl, it MAY help). As someone already said, it depends on your perception of what makes YOU happy. Personally, I think having enough money to live with basics and a couple of little extra's every now and then is happiness. You appreciate the good things in life more when you can't have them ALL the time.

2. An OP is important TO SOME EXTENT but it is not the "be all, end all". It is possible to get a good OP AND live a happy teenage life...I think it all depends on an individuals ability to study EFFICIENTLY, think CRITICALLY and engage in "NO STUDY" times occasionally (everyone needs time out every now and then for their mind to work at it's best). And a person's motivation and drive to get that OP...some ppl at that age just don't feel any need to do work because they don't know what the hell they want to do (and fair enough, you're only young). ALL OF THIS BEING SAID, IF a person DOESN'T get the OP that they want/need to get into a particular program at uni, it is really quite easy to upgrade...you just need to be motivated enough to do it! Further, once you have it, you WILL continue to succeed IF you have enough motivation, study efficiently, AND balance your life (I think some ppl just need to view studying more as an activity, rather than a chore...).

3. Not ALL jobs require a university degree. I think what MDMA did was smart (starting at the bottom in IT and getting the company to pay for certificates to upgrade his qualifications). SMART BOY!!!
University degrees are ONLY MANDATE for SOME occupations (doctor, lawyer, etc). There is USUALLY more than one way to get to the top in A LOT of professions - you just have to look around at your options.


4. A university degrees WON'T NECESSARILY guarantee you a job (though it certainly does help in some cases!). I think what ppl NEED to keep in mind is that employers WANT and NEED ppl who are able to function as ppl AS WELL - ppl who have ppl skills AND who have a life OUTSIDE of work. A lot of ppl seem to take time off from illness, depression, heart attacks, etc - problems that are POSSIBLY (at least sometimes) preventable from leading a healthy life outside of work.

Reload, you only need a GPA of 5.25 to upgrade to Law @ UQ. Play your cards right and that's definately doable. Chuck in a few really easy Arts courses if you have to.

lol, PSYC1020 and PSYC1030 ftw! :)

Also, I don't agree with the fact that you need awesome grades to get a decent paying job once you graduate. I think that networking and contacts will get you a good job more than anything.

Completely agree with you. As the saying goes - "it's not what you know, but WHO you know".
Once you have the necessary qualifications, if you can show that you are a person with a stable happy life, capable of having pleasant interactions with other ppl (i.e. avoiding conflict and behaving rationally), and you are enthusiastic and passionate about what you do, this will help you out SOOOOOO much!!!

When I grow up I want to go to BOVINE UNIVERSITY!

you realy don't need to be smart to earn alot of money it just depends what you are willing to put up with. Anyone could do a couple of weeks training and earn 80-90 grand a year driving a bulldozer. It all depends on how you set out your life.

When I left school I went down the uni study road like alot of people here.

If there is anyone in year ten at the moment and dosent want to go back to school next year don't!!! It will be te best thing that you do. Go and get a trade becase if school isn't for you you are just going to waste you time.

When I grow up I want to go to BOVINE UNIVERSITY!

"That's unpossible".

P.S. http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/ralph/content.php?section=information&page=biography (yeah, I had to look the Bovine University thing up).

last edited by Agent 99 at 17:57:38 19/Dec/05

last edited by Agent 99 at 18:02:45 19/Dec/05

People are quick to forget that a uni degree is not just a piece of paper that will get you into certain jobs

It's also an education, about gaining some cool/useful knowledge

This may sound pretty vacuous, but consider that the things you learned at university, you probably either couldn't have learned on the outside, or would not have had the initiative to learn

Certainly it is quite possible to gain most or all of the knowledge gained in an IT, electrical engineering, etc degree simply by staying at home and buying books, borrowing books, looking up the interweb, and purchasing all the necessary gear

Other degrees requiring massive microscopes and other highly specialised facilities would obviously make it a bit harder to do that

Point is, compared to the hypothetical 'other guy going for the job', not only do I have the letters after my name but I also probably don't need to bulls*** quite as much during the interview because I know what I'm talking about more of the time.

That said, you still need the experience as well - a huge regret of mine is not getting more work experience during my studies, which will make it harder to get work, so don't neglect this!

People are quick to forget that a uni degree is not just a piece of paper that will get you into certain jobs

It's also an education, about gaining some cool/useful knowledge

Agree - I love being able to take electives in random subjects for interests sake (looks ok on my transcript too ;) ), plus the social aspect of uni and meeting people is pretty good. I've got a few friends from school who decided that they didn't want to go to uni (even though they had pretty decent OP's) and who feel that they've kinda missed out on that. But then I suppose that they've had other "real life/world" experiences that some of us uni kids haven't had yet either.

Depends on what you want out of life I guess!

different strokes for different folks

I was basically about to say what Insom said, but he said it much better. When I started my degree it wasn't because I wanted the piece of paper or the qualification, it was because its the best way for me to gain the knowledge I need to go into the career I want to.

Bachelor of Science (Computer Science & Software Engineering) (Honors)

Mmmm does it really say Engineering? Cause I truely hate people/trades who pass themselves off as engineers / engineering trades without a batchelor of engineering degree. Specifically the apprentice adds on TV/radio where they talk about engineering trades such as "boiler making" thats not a fricken engineering trade, you're a fitter and turner or a welder ffs.

Anyway me:

Finished HS in NSW, UAI of 92.35, which is like a 6 or a 7 I think, but we have a different system and had it been the QLD system, I'd have been a 1 or a 2.

Batchelor of Engineering (Civil) (Honours).

Just finished my first year out of uni, started off on about 46K (including super + certain insurances I require). Now on +50K after 1 year and also just scored a nice bonus for work I've done on a project.

However my 46K was the 2nd highest of all my friends out of uni, we all got honours of some sort and the only person higher than myself is an absolute bloody genious, with a dual degree first class honours Japanese and CivEng (please note the dude is as white as they come and had no background in Japanese going into the course).

I have a friend who just finished this year and is going into the Department of Main Roads, he is starting on about 45K so I don't know where Typo got his 50K from. However I will state that if you go work at the mines as a Mech/Civil/Mining/Environmental Engineer. You will earn about 70-100K first year out of uni, and that significantly changes the average, but its specialised and s***ty work, and thats why it pays so well.

I think most blokes here could be quite happy living on rice crakers if they had a REALLY GOOD JOB like photographer for FHM.

-orbs, you sound like you have a really high IQ * turns green *

- do we really need more lawyers?

- do we really need more lawyers?

Ha! Probably not. I was actually at the last admission ceremony for the year last Thursday (this is the ceremony where people who have done their law degrees, articles/practical legal training and then satisfied the powers that be that they are "fit and proper" to actually practice law are "admitted" to the profession). Chief Justice de Jersey remarked in his little speech at the end that they had admitted almost 600 new lawyers to the profession in 2005! That is for Queensland alone, and it's a pretty amazing/scary statistic really when you consider there are less than 8000 lawyers in total in Qld afaik.

Oh, and by the way, 50k for law graduates is a touch on the high side. I know what most of the big firms paid their graduates at the start of this year, and only one of them that I am aware of started at or above 50k including super. Most of the other "top tier" firms pay $40-$50k when you start. Bear in mind though that only a tiny fraction of law graduates make it into these firms because of the intense competition for spots. If you end up doing articles at a small firm, they are only obliged to pay the Law Society minimum wage, and that was about $26k last time I checked.

Finally, Melbourne and especially Sydney definitely pay more for grads, i'd say $5k extra in Melbourne and $10k or more in Sydney.

I think alot of people are forgetting, you don't get a degree for the graduate wage, you get a degree for the earnings potential it gives you. That 40k starting salary can easily turn into 70k+ a few years down the track with hard work etc.

This may sound pretty vacuous, but consider that the things you learned at university, you probably either couldn't have learned on the outside, or would not have had the initiative to learn

Certainly it is quite possible to gain most or all of the knowledge gained in an IT, electrical engineering, etc degree simply by staying at home and buying books, borrowing books, looking up the interweb, and purchasing all the necessary gear

I don't think I learned anything at uni that I couldn't have learned by reading a text book or spending a few minutes on google. You're right though - initiative is a massive factor. If you have the energy, interest and enthusiasm, you'll probably be inspired to learn about it.

My personal situation was a little weirder - I did my first year of uni and really didn't enjoy it, so then went out and did a variety of s***ty jobs before realising that, hey, maybe I should go back to uni to try and get a real job. 6 months after going back to uni, I got offered a job at Auran and hell yeh, I took it. I tried doing uni part time at the same time, but I felt I was learning much, much more about my primary area of interest.

I kicked around there for a while, then had a variety of other jobs, before finally deciding to finish my degree around 2 years ago - not really out of any desire to do it, but I have this thing about leaving things unfinished. I don't really feel I learned anything at uni that I couldn't have learned elsewhere.

I will totally agree that this is really something you can only do with a few fields, and not even the whole field of IT - like, if you're trying to learn some serious s*** like distributed computing, you really need the resources of a university behind you. Anything involving lab work (physics, biology, chemistry, etc) is really hard to do at home, too. But if you're only interested in a specific area of programming, then lock yourself in a room for a couple months with some decent books and Internet access and I reckon you'll come out much better at programming that thing than you would doing a general IT degree (... obviously unless your uni focuses on that).

I guess what I'm saying is, if you're interesting in something fairly specific, it might be better to just focus on that yourself (if you're disciplined enough to actually do the work), but if you're after a more generic education then uni is probably the way to go for you.

Point is, compared to the hypothetical 'other guy going for the job', not only do I have the letters after my name but I also probably don't need to bulls*** quite as much during the interview because I know what I'm talking about more of the time.

Probably, but not always. John Carmack never went to college and its arguable that he knows a thing or two!

That said, you still need the experience as well - a huge regret of mine is not getting more work experience during my studies, which will make it harder to get work, so don't neglect this!

This is the trap! If you get a job that is too interesting you'll probably end up like me and pissing uni off to focus on your work :)

I can't say whether or not I recommend it though.

edit: also, g'day lyco

last edited by trog at 13:48:21 20/Dec/05

Mmmm does it really say Engineering? Cause I truely hate people/trades who pass themselves off as engineers / engineering trades without a batchelor of engineering degree.

Bachelor of Software Engineering is a recognised Engineering degree. CSSE is its little brother.

I admit the people who just scraped through with passes etc are on the high 30s/low 40s, but most of the people I know who were getting good marks, we're on high 50s straight out.

So the trick is, marry a rich partner and let them do all the work. I don't really have any ambition, so I have a work-around.

I could be a home-dad, make babies, look after the kids, while my wife pays the bills. I'll sit at home and play WoW all day.

Any girls interested? C'mon, its a chance to put your career first! And I get to f*** the milkman while YOU work! oh wait.

^^ I already have that one covered if plan A fails.

Trog what did you do at Auran?

Mmmm does it really say Engineering? Cause I truely hate people/trades who pass themselves off as engineers / engineering trades without a batchelor of engineering degree. Specifically the apprentice adds on TV/radio where they talk about engineering trades such as "boiler making" thats not a fricken engineering trade, you're a fitter and turner or a welder ffs.

Completely agree. I hate it when people are really vague about what their job is and try to pass off their job as being something more than it is. I wish ppl could just be happy with the job they've got and admit what it is, or put the hard yards in and graduate exactly with the career that they *claim* to have.

I think ppl who are vague are secretly insecure about what they do (with regards to intelligence and/or income) or *wrongly* seem to think that making their job seem more than it really is, is the only way to achieve respect (which is sooooo not true).

/Rant.

Sure be some smart peedepulls on these are eh forums.

Software engineers (with the right quals) can sign off design of software that do air traffic control, medical computers etc... While the avg. software monkey can design the program but aren't covered if the something hits the something.

So they are engineers, they just deal more with the virtual engineering. Plus somebody also has to sign off on most the software engineers (electrical, civil etc..) use. I have seen that a lot of it is made by ex-civil/electrical engineers, I hope that they have the proper insurance because just like conventional engineering you can get in the hot tub!

OP, got mine last year and have worked this year as a Drafty (trying something I never knew much about and getting paid to learn). Decided it's crap, going back to study. Starting with adding Maths B and Phsyics to my Adult Tertiary Prep. Certificate (long story). And after I have completed that and the STAT test I will be looking at a OP of 1-2 (I intend on going hard out, I would like to get honors in maths especially).

After that I aim for Uni doing IT, via mid year entry (I want to program, but not some small scale thing more interested in the advanced things, AI that runs a entire mining plant gives me tingly feelings!).

Best things I've learned are: What you do today, affects you tomorrow and Live the now, learn from the past and keep an eye on the future!

I got an OP 8 from tafe without the STAT (I got a job, so didn't feel the need as it was for uni). With the STAT (did practice test) would have had 5-6. I still didn't try at tafe (still trying to decide what I wanted to do). I didn't slack off, but I didn't give it my all. Exception are some subjects (maths, comps).

I recommend a year to work and then Uni. Even if it's totally unrelated to what you want to actually do at uni. You gain a better understanding of a work week and know what to expect after you're finished (I'm talking working for a business other then woolies or coles etc...).

Life Experience, Work Experience and that piece of paper (Learning experience) are all very important. Just balance them nicely and you'll be fine. 1 hour a week spent organising your time means you save more time (and get more social time due to no wasting of time).

Good luck you year 12 monkeys, if you have questions ask... but don't let people force you into things. If you say you're interested in computers but don't know what, don't let somebody push you into a IT Degree or Tafe Diploma or Helpdesk job. You might find you like to sell PCs or fix them for newbies, or make art out of them.

Best advice ever, Find something you enjoy. Offer to do work experience for free for as many things as you can imagine you'd take interest in while doing a pizza boy or checkout chick job. You'll find something you want to study or score a job!

maybe elvis only gets 25k cos he's a dumb f*****?

If u can find anyone that knows more about Linux... I would like to meet them. elvis is a very smart guy top block to

I don't think I learned anything at uni that I couldn't have learned by reading a text book or spending a few minutes on google. You're right though - initiative is a massive factor. If you have the energy, interest and enthusiasm, you'll probably be inspired to learn about it.

It isn’t just initiative that can limit you, it is the fact that when you learn it yourself you have to relearn all of the mistakes that everybody else learned.

I mean, in theory, I could have learned everything I have learned at Uni from some books; in fact, seeing that I have read a lot of different books on my interest areas since going back to uni I probably have.

However, if you don’t know something exists you can’t easily learn about it on your own. Even if you only know it exists how do you start learning more about it? What books are up to date? What books are written by morons? What books are actually (not so) subtle advertisements for their own tools/programs?

Later on in your post you talk about hardcore Computer Science like Distributed Systems and UbiComp. The problem is that these types of technologies are starting to pervade into mainstream technology. UbiComp using mobile phones is an excellent example of how this is happening.

Can someone learn about UbiComp simply though books and papers? Sure, I’d bet they can. However, the real question is “is it a better education”? I’d suggest that in the long run it really isn’t.

Probably, but not always. John Carmack never went to college and its arguable that he knows a thing or two!

I’d argue that John Carmack is a unique case, seeing he defined the role of 3d engine development.

That being said, by definition he would have had to have made every single mistake. Which builds up the point of, if you want to be the next John Carmack and not spend 15 years learning it all on your own, do dual Maths/CS degrees. That way you can have an implicit knowledge of what’s right and wrong; both in the code and in the maths.

Besides, I think it is more than obvious that becoming as good at 3d engine development as JC is a rare ass thing. If it was easier to learn engine development at home than it was at uni there would be a flood of 3d programmers.


last edited by typo at 17:14:08 20/Dec/05

Trog what did you do at Auran?

His main focus was on all the gay parts :P

I wanted to add how great it was to see more Au talent emerging.. only to relise they'll take it to international markets where they're paid what they're worth.

It is a general indication of how much effort that person puts into study. It is not as important as everyone thinks but if you get a good OP it saves you those few years f***ing around to get into whatever course you want to do.

not really. Someone who is ultra bright will get an OP1 with bugger all work, another ultra smart person might get a 10. If you're dumb, you're dumb no amount of work will get you a 1.

There are different kinds of smart and there are different kinds of dumb, none of those kinds of dumb will get a one!

I also agree that getting a 25 would be almost as difficult as getting a 1!

50k is a pretty low-average wage for professionals. Most graduate level professionals start near 50k a year, if not more.

hahaha you're funny.

of my group of ~20 uni mates, maybe two earn less than $50k and they would earn more than $40k. Majority earn $100k plus. Remember he said 'most graduate level professionals' not 'some arse clown with a degree and no clue.'

Also the average national wage is ~$48k afaik.

Majority earn $100k plus.

You've personally asked each of them how much they earn?

Also, what does the OP1 mark represent (in percentage terms)?

^
Approx top 2% of students in Qld for that year.

Trog what did you do at Auran?

All sorts of stuff - initially games testing and working on Dark Reign (just for a couple months, I came in right at the end), network/desktop support, some scripting/programming stuff on one of the (still unreleased :) titles.

Later on in your post you talk about hardcore Computer Science like Distributed Systems and UbiComp

I don't think I mentioned UbiComp, cuz I don't know what it is.

UbiComp using mobile phones is an excellent example of how this is happening.

Mobile phones is a great example of something you're _not_ going to learn at uni. To reference (again!) Carmack, his comments about developing for mobile phones I think summarise why you can't learn about it at uni - and in fact the only way you will learn about it is to get dick deep in it and keep making mistakes until you figure out how it all works:

Write-once-run-anywhere. Ha. Hahahahaha. We are only testing on four platforms right now, and not a single pair has the exact same quirks. All the commercial games are tweaked and compiled individually for each (often 100+) platform. Portability is not a justification for the awful performance.

Some of the subjects I did gave me a very high level understanding of elements of developing for mobile platforms - user interface issues, programming issues, OS issues, etc, etc - but there's no WAY I could write anything useful for it. On a personal note, some of the work we're I'm doing for Telstra has given me some insight into the mobile phones industry - and its just a mess of conflicting standards that, if you're (like us) in content provision, you're f***ing boned because you have to deal with a billion different platforms.

I’d argue that John Carmack is a unique case, seeing he defined the role of 3d engine development.

Bill Gates? Bram Cohen (who google tells me dropped out)? I think there's plenty of people that never studied at uni that have gone on to do pretty amazing things in all sorts of fields. Well, maybe not medicine or law :)

That being said, by definition he would have had to have made every single mistake.

I think the best way to learn is by making mistakes... assuming you learn from them, which an assload of people seem incapable of doing. Besides, its not like I never made mistakes at uni.

Isn't OP also somehow affected by how well your school did as a whole? Its like crazy voodoo magic the way that OP is worked out.

That being said, by definition he would have had to have made every single mistake.
I think the best way to learn is by making mistakes... assuming you learn from them, which an assload of people seem incapable of doing. Besides, its not like I never made mistakes at uni.

Yeah, agree with you. A lot of what I have learnt in life has been from mistakes I've made myself, or have learnt about from others.

You don't come to understand new things from innately knowing, you learn from trying different things out. And trying different things out inevitably involves making mistakes. You just hope the mistakes you make aren't too heavy and that you can learn from them.


last edited by Agent 99 at 13:10:42 21/Dec/05

Isn't OP also somehow affected by how well your school did as a whole? Its like crazy voodoo magic the way that OP is worked out.

Sort of. I did a heap of reading on how they work it out back in Year 12 and I still didn't quite understand it. Apparently though it has (MILDLY) got something to do with the QCS Test or something and the overall school results from that - it doesn't apparently have a huge effect though on your individual results.

QCS test results from individual schools are used to establish a moderating factor for the actual subject results. Because you will always have schools that tend to give more VHAs and schools that tend to hand out more VLAs.

It might seem like it's voodoo, but the methods used are mathematically and stastisically sound.

^
Makes more sense now. Thanks Orbitor.

you individual QCS result means s*** all. Even your schools QCS average means s*** all.

Orbs was right, its used as a moderator, but not for the school, its the actual class.

Your SAI is calculated by your school, which is a moderated ranking system from 1-400. If you come first you will score 400, if you come last you will score 1. the rest in between are moderated by the margin. So if you come second by a miniscule margin you might get an SAI of 399, but if you get smashed by some genius it could be as low as 300!

You get an SAI for each class you take. Then they look at the QCS results from the students in each of those classes and guage the intelligence of that particular class against another class at another school. Eg. you might come second and get a VHA in Maths C at School X, but the average QCS mark for the students in the Maths C class at school X is a C, meanwhile another student might come 10th in Maths C at School Y, but the students that took Maths C at School Y might have an average QCS mark of A hence making your 10th place a better result than the other students 2nd place, because based on QCS resuts you were up against smarter kids!

so, cliffs are that QCS compares what a VHA is worth in your particular class to what a VHA is worth in all of the other classes (of that subject) in the state.

yep

Raven: My point was your doing a Batchelor of Science not a Batchelor of Engineering, 2 completely different degrees yet it says in your discription software engineer.

you do realise what a software engineer does right?

i think based on that alone it should be considered "engineering"

you individual QCS result means s*** all. Even your schools QCS average means s*** all.

QCS can be important, not the individual score but the subject avg in each school. Our guidance counselor told us last year if you get x (it was some number between 0.5-1.5 or something) amount of std devs from the state mean, everyones OPs get bumped up. I was told to expect a 5, our school smashed the QCS and I ended up getting a 2. Happened to everyone in our grade, got way better marks than expected, best class the school had for ages. So in general I'd agree QCS results aren't too important but in some circumstances it can make a difference.

Your SAI is calculated by your school, which is a moderated ranking system from 1-400. If you come first you will score 400, if you come last you will score 1.

It's 200-400 not 1-400, or at least it was when I graduated at the end of 2004

Only 12 people in queensland got an op 1 or 2 compared to last year's 24, or so I have been told.

Dumbs***s, the lot of them.

EDIT: People/percent/apparently, it's all the same starf.

last edited by eXemplar at 13:02:52 22/Dec/05

Only 12 people in queensland got an op 1 or 2 compared to last year's 24, or so I have been told.

Dumbs***s, the lot of them.

Hahaha, what in the f***? You realise that OP scores are relative.. so the same % of people get a 1,2,3 etc every year... Approx 600 (top 1-2% or something) people get a 1 each year, regardless of how dumb everyone is. So in fact, it is you who is the dumbs***.

12 people? What are you talking about? Like 500 people get a 1 every year, and there are even more 2s

Only 12 people in queensland got an op 1 or 2 compared to last year's 24, or so I have been told.

Dumbs***s, the lot of them.

http://www.theworldjournal.com/special/movies/2001/zoolander.jpg

last edited by pillsy at 01:48:05 22/Dec/05

http://images.ausimages.com/upload/2005-12-22/TN_zoolander.jpg

i rember going for jobs and i had my OP on my resume... id then have to explain it to the emloyeer.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~18_2sandford/kid_rock.jpg

Raven: My point was your doing a Batchelor of Science not a Batchelor of Engineering, 2 completely different degrees

Yer, because Engineering isnt Science! They mock science, better to bash two bits of steel together untill they fit and hold stuff up. Then see how much stuff it can hold and it breaks. When it breaks, cheer and drink a beer!

Engin, Engin, Engin, Eer, Eer, Eer! Lets Chug a Beer!

:D

I've never liked the term "software engineer". An engineer is someone that builds bridges, dammit!

Or drives trains.

or places anti-tank mines at the front of karkand.

heh, work designations...usually nothing to do with how you perform & more to do with how good you are at self-promotion! there are 12 guys at my work that have BE's... only 5 call themselves 'engineers' because that designation is too lowly for the others who are managers, executives & the like :P
the 'just out of uni engineers' are the funniest... they are SO PEDANTIC about who is an engineer & who isn't. (ie: if you graduated from thier uni with similar honours etc, then they'll graciously allow you to call yourself an engineer... but if not, you're not.)
the reality is the most competent engineers are the ones that have extensive industry training & experience regardless of thier initial qulifications & the just out of uni noobs pretty quickly get the snottiness slapped out of them or they get the sack due to incompetance.

an engineer is a person who does engineering work.

Or drives trains

I got an OP2 and I say OPs don't matter. I came third in my year... we were the least number of OP1s in a single year (2) at Nudgee ever!!!! go us! (next nearest year was 4, and in the last few years I think its been over 10 *shrug* could be wrong).

VHAs in Maths1, Maths2, Phys, Chem, IPT, SA in English :P our dux of English was the only student to get a HA ...our english teachers hated us. Doing well in school is not that important!!!

Infact going to Uni is not for everyone. And not going to uni will not ruin your life! The world needs tradesmen, artists, chefs and farmers as much as it needs doctors, laywers and engineers.

It is far far far more important you find something you enjoy and pursue that instead of doing something becuase you got the right OP for it.

ie. a person who got an OP12 and wants to be a doctor, wants to heal people and works at being a doctor, is a far far far better doctor then someone who got an OP1 hates people but becuase they got an OP1 feels medicene will make them the most money. That is but 1 of the many problems with our society and medical system at the moment.

ps. A day student at Nudgee is close to 8 grand, a boarder ... well I hate to think.

edit for the omg square brackets again


last edited by Obes at 14:03:57 22/Dec/05

I've never liked the term "software engineer". An engineer is someone that builds bridges, dammit!

I somehow think chemical engineers, electrical engineers, genetic engineers, geotechnical engineers, mining engineers, biomedical engineers, automotive engineers, naval engineers, microelectronic engineers and industrial engineers might all be offended by your bridge building requirement.


As a verb to engineer means "To plan, construct, or manage"

While the software at some places *cough* mammoth *cough* may not be planned or managed ... in some places ... it is!!!

edit to remove the square brackets .. unlike every other forum in the universe

last edited by Obes at 13:44:26 22/Dec/05

/cue fpot

yeah give it to him

As a verb to engineer means "To plan, construct, or manage"

While the software at some places *cough* mammoth *cough* may not be planned or managed ... in some places ... it is!!!

The problem with software engineering as it stands is that it doesn't quite relate to the rest of engineering.

If you wanted a house built you wouldn't go to a Civil Engineer, you'd go to an architect. The thing is that Software Engineers are currently the designers, manufacturers and assemblers of the software world. They probably shouldn't be but thats just the way it is.

If Software Engineers built new libraries for designers and programmers(for lack of a better title) to link together we'd probably all be in a better place *cough* these forums *cough*.

I got an OP2 and I say OPs don't matter.

OPs matter for 1 year. Your first out of high school.

They also don't matter that much. You can get something like an OP4 or 5 just from getting straight 4s in your first year of uni and for the most part thats "i done showed up" marks.

So so long as you can get into some dodgy ass degree that you can work up enough motivation to show up to and hand in all the assignments for, you'll probably be able to get into what you want. Also think about an Arts degree as you can pretty much do an arts degree of whatever you want and chip away at your preferred degree.

If i had my time again i would have transferred into a dual degree of IT/Microelectronic Engineering after my first year.

If Software Engineers built new libraries for designers and programmers(for lack of a better title) to link together we'd probably all be in a better place *cough* these forums *cough*.

The main problem with Software Engineering is that it is still being taught as if it was computer science. I haven’t done one Software Engineering course at UQ that required you to do a design document and then work from that document, or if they do there is no compulsion to do the design document first.

In my experience most Universities teach their students to be ninja hackers who cram their work in at the last minute. Then after the system is complete they retrograde their design document and hand it in for glorious marks. “Oh look, they said they would do A, B and C and they have exactly that! 7’s for them.”

What would be useful for students is to do a design document, submit it and then work from it. Then after the project is finished the students have to hand in a post-mortem on their assignment that requires them to reflect on what went right in their project, what didn’t go so right, how they overcame obstacles and most importantly what differences happened from their design document to the final product and why.

Reflecting on work is a much better teacher than an exam.

there was an article in the paper the other day refering to 'millionare tradesmen'.

i'm a tradesman, i dont have my own company or anything, and i think i'm not paid what i'm worth.

ive been reading some of these posts where people state that 50000 a year is good money and on that you can buy 2 HSV's jetskis, motorbikes and pay off that house.

i'm currently on track to make 65-70 this year. i have no kids and i only support myself. i have been struggling pretty hard to save a deposit for a house lately. and while i dont watch ever penny i have, if i were to have 2 HSV's jetskis bikes etc, i would have -$ left at the end of each fortnight. let alone paying off a house and supporting a missus and 2 kids. $1000/week is average pay nowadays for qualified people. people do so well at school, get their OP1, do their degree, and expect some magically highly paid job fresh out of university. it isnt going to happen, if it does, youre the exception.

i laugh when i see these jobs being advertised in the paper, expecting uni grads to take a job for $25k/year. $500 a week..! i make that much money when i goto work for a day of overtime on one of my 6 days off in a fortnight. and that happens often. i'm not bignoting myself but ive earnt $50k since i was a 3rd year apprentice, but i have never felt i could comfortable afford that new car and pay off a house. especially when i was living in sydney and houses median prices are $500k. has anyone ever looked up the repayments on a $250k loan ? youre looking in the order of $1800/month. and thats a very modest house in brisbane these days. something someone who is even earning the huge amount of 50k a year and paying off hecs, and just bought a new car will just not be able to afford.

From a page or 3 ago: No one who writes batchelor 'should' have got an OP1 or 2

levels? Why Does someones ability at spelling dictate how smart they are? Are you unable to read the sentence, replace the incorrect words on the fly and understand the meaning of what the person was trying to say? If you can do that, then why point it out, have you never made a mistake before?

Jsut Rmeemebr Taht You Can Raed Tihs And It Is Ttolaly Msislepled. Deos Crorcet Sepillng Ralely Mkee A Dfifecrnae?

EDIT: Also, if you where really bad at storing information such as how to spell a word, say something is broken in your brain, and you had strong problem solving skills. Would you keep using the 'broken' memory or use another system to spell out words much more efficiantly then what you otherwise could do? You know, phonetically spell them?
Would that not be smarter for the person to do?

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 23:28:46 22/Dec/05

Why Does someones ability at spelling dictate how smart they are? Are you unable to read the sentence, replace the incorrect words on the fly and understand the meaning of what the person was trying to say?

But I thought we'd agreed OP doesn't = intelligence. STOP CONTRADICTING YOURSELF MAEN!@#!!

It doesnt matter tollazor I don't think less of you because you misspelled a word

I think if someone keeps staring at that piece of paper like f2b obviously does, they would notice that it isn't 'batchelor'.

I did a semester of software engineering at uq, and I reckon I could've learnt more doing a hardcore msword course. The only planning was in the general engineering subject, and even then the emphasis was more on the final product. If I had've stuck with it, they probably would've gone into some sort of project and development with actual software engineering emphasis, but the intro programming was f***ing scheme. Even so, there is tonnes of room to teach the proper way to do a project, but it was just, "this does this, that does that, now write this." If I wanted a bastardised language drilled into me I would've sodomized the closest goat. Maybe if I stuck it out it eventually would've livened up, sure the math and elec subjects were good, but not really that much up on highschool maths and physics. It may just be me, but isn't a course labelled as engineering supposed to be difficult/challenging ?

Are there any software engineering/compsci like courses anywhere worth taking ?

i'm in my final year of software engineering @ uq. i found 1st year pretty boring too, most the courses were year 12 all over again with a bit added on. 2nd year is better, 3rd year was heaps interesting cos you get to choose advanced electives.

hi rips!

okay 2001, engineering at uq. didnt like it :p so i switched to qut in 02. that makes 4 years ive been at qut and i am half way through my degree, and that means im gonna be sizing up against trog for longest time taken to complete a 3 year degree...

Raven: My point was your doing a Batchelor of Science not a Batchelor of Engineering, 2 completely different degrees yet it says in your discription software engineer.

See earlier post. There is a Bachelor of Software Engineering (which is a BEng), and then there's BSci(Comp Sci & Soft Eng), which is mostly Comp Sci, but also includes a lot of the stuff from the BSE, without some of the engineering/electronics based maths.

I did a semester of software engineering at uq, and I reckon I could've learnt more doing a hardcore msword course.

Which semester? Isn’t the first year of Engineering students pretty much the same for all students?

The only planning was in the general engineering subject, and even then the emphasis was more on the final product. If I had've stuck with it, they probably would've gone into some sort of project and development with actual software engineering emphasis,

In later years (read second and third year) you technically plan (do UML and so on). However, students hand it all in at the same time. So, obviously what happens is all of their students build the project and then make a design document that says that they are going to build what they have already built.

but the intro programming was f***ing scheme.

That is the single worst thing that UQ has done in any of its CompSci subjects. They bought it in because Professor Kaplan has a hard on for scheme because MIT teaches scheme. Of course, what he fails to mention is that MIT teaches both scheme and c++ in their first year first semester AND students are required to already be able to program basic c++ and scheme before they enter the program. Let’s not even get into the debate of UQ != MIT; that was a s***fest and a half when I mentioned that.

Even so, there is tonnes of room to teach the proper way to do a project, but it was just, "this does this, that does that, now write this." If I wanted a bastardised language drilled into me I would've sodomized the closest goat. Maybe if I stuck it out it eventually would've livened up, sure the math and elec subjects were good, but not really that much up on highschool maths and physics. It may just be me, but isn't a course labelled as engineering supposed to be difficult/challenging ?

First year in almost every program is about bringing everybody up to the same level. When it comes to IT universities have to assume that students know nothing about computers, because there is no standard way to teach IT at schools. Some kids come out knowing how to do databases and program in multiple languages, others can use word!

Are there any software engineering/compsci like courses anywhere worth taking ?

There are other CompSci programs at UQ, and some of the majors in IT are f***ing awesome. I did the Interaction Design and Information Environments streams (Xyzzy, Shad and simul are doing (or done) the Interaction Design stream) which gave me a healthy understanding of traditional design and engineering methods. Interestingly enough it was the Interaction Design stream that got me employed straight after graduating.

i'm in my final year of software engineering @ uq. i found 1st year pretty boring too, most the courses were year 12 all over again with a bit added on. 2nd year is better, 3rd year was heaps interesting cos you get to choose advanced electives.

If you do a straight IT degree with honours (so it is a 4 year degree) and choose all compsci subjects you can do almost every single compsci subject that UQ has to offer. From advanced data structures and algorithms, compilers, and interpreters, operating systems. AI, networking, distributed systems and databases.

SE loses almost an entire years subjects simply because of the general engineering subjects. I’m not saying that those subjects are not worth it, they may very well be, but if you want to get to the fun stuff you can do more of it in IT.

Of course, the reality is that most people who do IT do the lamest electives known to man kind. I’d imagine that if basket weaving was offered at UQ as an elective, IT students would flock it.


last edited by typo at 14:03:24 23/Dec/05

okay 2001, engineering at uq. didnt like it :p so i switched to qut in

I suppose I wouldn’t like uni either if I didn’t do any work for the entire year.

hey that year i did do work!

it was first year at qut where i didnt

If you do a straight IT degree with honours (so it is a 4 year degree) and choose all compsci subjects you can do almost every single compsci subject that UQ has to offer. From advanced data structures and algorithms, compilers, and interpreters, operating systems. AI, networking, distributed systems and databases.

I was always lead to believe that if you wanted those subjects you did an eng it course. Looking back, I really wish I had researched it more. I don't want to have to do introduction/uptospeed subjects if I have to, although I will. Would you recommend a 'straight IT degree with honours' for a course that starts with programming, then moving into those other areas ?

3rd year was heaps interesting cos you get to choose advanced electives.

Yeh I didn't really find any of the subjects at UQ even vaguely interesting until 3rd year when I could do cool stuff like security/operating systems.

That is the single worst thing that UQ has done in any of its CompSci subjects. They bought it in because Professor Kaplan has a hard on for scheme because MIT teaches scheme.

haha, I don't know what Scheme is but in my extensive UQ career of doing first year IT subjects to fill up credit, I had to study Turbo Pascal, Smalltalk, and Ada. (one of my best UQ experiences was programming smalltalk and getting an error:

"An exception has occured. Take appropriate action."

I still use that as error messages because its just so hilarious.

Of course, the reality is that most people who do IT do the lamest electives known to man kind. I’d imagine that if basket weaving was offered at UQ as an elective, IT students would flock it.

I will confess that, at the end of my 11 years, I was picking subjects based on what I thought would be easy rather than interesting. I really wanted to do the AI subject but I didn't like the assessment system (or something about it). I ended up doing a number of web-related subjects that I found generally to be reaaaaaaaaaallly easy because of my work background.

I have to say the first two years were piss. Maybe four subjects where I was actually taught useful stuff. Mind you I came into uni with a working knowledge of a few languages so some subjects were rehashing what I already knew, even if they were relevant. 3rd and 4th year were meaty and I did compiler construction, algorithm design, advanced database subjects and distributed computing amongst other things.

Of course, the reality is that most people who do IT do the lamest electives known to man kind.

heh, so true. I did OSes and Compilers/Interpreters myself, which were both pretty bloody tough subjects (especially the latter) but very interesting.

i think Obes would outdo you on the that Tung... he was doing he degree when i was still in high school and had a subject or two to go when i finished up mid last year.

Jsut Rmeemebr Taht You Can Raed Tihs And It Is Ttolaly Msislepled. Deos Crorcet Sepillng Ralely Mkee A Dfifecrnae?

Haha Tollazor - that just reminded me of something I learnt in one of my neuroscience classes last year...do you know that apparently (if your first language is English and you are given another word in English) you can deduce the meaning of a word with only 68% (pretty exact figure!) of the letters in the word present?!!!

Also, yeah, I figure some kind of strange kinda logic applies to the sentence you provided above.

SE loses almost an entire years subjects simply because of the general engineering subjects. I’m not saying that those subjects are not worth it, they may very well be, but if you want to get to the fun stuff you can do more of it in IT.

I chose B Eng (Software) over a B IT (Something) for a couple of reasons. Firstly, a B Eng (Software) wasn't being offered at any other QLD University at the time and I thought it might be good to set myself apart from the other IT students graduating. Secondly, I kinda got sucked into the way UQ marketed their Engineering degrees - multidisciplinary team projects, final year thesis, project management, girls can do it too, world-class program, yada yada. I'm really glad I went this route now as it was my thesis (that is based on games funnily enough) that landed me a part-time job. Also, I get the impression that not just in Aus but especially overseas, 4 year degrees are more highly regarded. Sure you can do an IT (Honours) but unless ur really cluey, there's no chance of knowing whether or not you'll get the GPA to get accepted into that 4th year.

Edit: Actually, I'm not quite sure what GPA you need to get into IT (Honours), it might be lower than I thought.

last edited by Rips# at 18:41:40 23/Dec/05

hey that year i did do work!

it was first year at qut where i didn

Selective memory there Tung. You failed almost every subject, including a shattering defeat in introduction programming.

Would you recommend a 'straight IT degree with honours' for a course that starts with programming, then moving into those other areas ?

I suppose it depends on what you want to do. What is it that you want to do when you finish?

multidisciplinary team projects,

Team Project is a steaming pile of s***. Some of the horror stories I have heard from Team Project included a SE student buying the Electrical Engineering students a Disk Smiths electronic kit rated ages from 8-12 with the quote “please don’t eat the pieces”. At the end of the day she ended up building the majority of the project herself, including the Electrical Engineering work.

final year thesis,

Final year thesis is exactly the same as honours thesis.

project management,

Are simply a subject that any ITEE student can do.

there's no chance of knowing whether or not you'll get the GPA to get accepted into that 4th year.

Edit: Actually, I'm not quite sure what GPA you need to get into IT (Honours), it might be lower than I thought.

To enter an honours year you need a GPA of 5, although I have heard of 4.5 students getting in by asking nicely. Heck, with the current lack of post grad students, they would accept you at a GPA of 4.

To get into IT Honours at UQ, you need a GPA of 4.5 across:

- CSSE3004 (Advanced IT Project), yearlong so it counts as two courses
- the most recent #8 (four courses) of your "late year" courses.

There is no other general requirement for GPA across the entire degree, at least, there better not be.

Typo, you're beginning to sound a bit arrogant. I was explaining the things that made me choose an Engineering degree, merely cos it was guaranteed 4 years and cos of the way it was marketed (I know that thesis' are the same and u can choose project management as an elective, etc). I wasn't trying to start an Engineering/IT war and what you said about Tung is a bit harsh don't you think! Some things don't need to be said. Interesting about the low GPA required to do Honours, I had no idea. Also, what is this awesome Interaction Design job you have?

Some of the horror stories I have heard from Team Project included a SE student buying the Electrical Engineering students a Disk Smiths electronic kit rated ages from 8-12 with the quote “please don’t eat the pieces”. At the end of the day she ended up building the majority of the project herself, including the Electrical Engineering work

Sorry but 95% of the time it's the other way around. I've seen many case of the "software guys" saying that their tasks are easy and then disappearing in Week 2. On average they reappear in Week 10, saying that there are "problems" and SOMEHOW, the rest of the team just has to deal with it.

Not to sound too biased, but I hear more horror stories of SEs leaving everything till the last moment and failing their tasks. That's what they do throughout most of their degree, probably due to the lack of planning and documentation that was brought up earlier in this thread .. which could be attributed to a crappy degree layout, not necessarily the SE's complete fault.

I don't know whether you are doing an SE vs EE thing, but if infact you're actually emphasising the fact that Team Project isn't that great, I might agree with you there. People can slip through doing 0% team work, leech of others, and end up with a 6 for the course. That's pathetic. On the other hand, if you put in the hours, you pick up a lot of handy skills.

last edited by parabol at 20:10:19 23/Dec/05

It's funny, that having an interest in games automatically put you in some form of IT or engineering job. There were only a few people in this whole thread that do something different.

i sat in front of tung at the qut computer lab once and he was with this hot desi chick so in conclusion hang out with hot sluts less, study more

Typo, you're beginning to sound a bit arrogant. I was explaining the things that made me choose an Engineering degree, merely cos it was guaranteed 4 years and cos of the way it was marketed (I know that thesis' are the same and u can choose project management as an elective, etc).

No more arrogant as normal; I’m just speaking as from the point of view of a graduate IT student who has seen the pro’s and cons of both IT and SE (a lot of my friends are SE). SE might be the course for people to do, but my point is that if you are more focused in non-engineering things there are other options.

I wasn't trying to start an Engineering/IT war

In all honesty I wasn’t trying to continue/start one either. I thought you post was a follow on from someone who had started and dropped out from the SE degree. It was supposed to show how you could do much of the things that makes SE special from an IT degree. If you read my other posts you should see a post where I acknowledge that SE could be a perfect degree for people.

It just isn’t the be all and end all that some of ITEE make it out to be.

In all honesty I didn’t mean to offend you, or to push your buttons.

and what you said about Tung is a bit harsh don't you think!

No not really. I like Tung as a person, I think he has a lot of value and a lot of potential, or at least I did when we were both admins and hung around together. However, truth be told, retarded monkeys can pass first year anything. I remember what Tungs first year marks were, because he told me how poorly he did in them, and I it made me s*** bricks while I was doing my first year at UQ. I mean, after all Tung isn’t a moron, why shouldn’t I have been afraid.

Just to set the record straight, my understanding is that Tung has, at some point, pulled his finger out and is no longer the s***kunt he was in first year SE@UQ. Lastly, if Tung has a problem with how I talk to him, he can message me himself. He doesn’t need a fan club to fight his battles for him.

Some things don't need to be said. Interesting about the low GPA required to do Honours, I had no idea.

The only difference with SE and IT is that SE students don’t have to ask to do their 4th year, they just do it. If they graduate with a gpa of <5 they only graduate with a BE (major in SE) and can’t put honours next to the name. Again, an SE degree and an IT(hons) degree can be exactly the same. (i.e. both degrees can be as uber or as s***kunt as each other).

Also, what is this awesome Interaction Design job you have?

I currently hold two part time jobs*. The first is an RA with the Australasian Centre for Interaction Design, and the other is as an Interaction Designer for a Usability Consultancy in Brisbane. My RA is mostly creating software that enables community awareness on Weiser’s philosophy of tabs, pads and boards. My work as an Interaction Designer is mostly identifying interaction breakdowns and doing user testing on web apps; not the most interesting of work, but it is a start.

My personal interest is in distributed computing and physical computing, but I pursue that in my own time.

Don’t get me wrong here Rips#, if you are the right kind of SEing student SE is an awesome degree to go though. Some of the most hardcore ninjas I have ever known have come out of SE. I’d recommend the SE degree to anybody who wanted to end up in that line of work. In fact, one of my friends (the one who’s story I told about the Electrical Engineers who were s***) is working for Cannon as we speak and has her choice of jobs.
Cannon doesn’t, in general, hire IT students.

I can see how what I have written seems to s*** on the students of UQ:SE. In truth, I don’t mean to insult them. That couldn’t be further from the truth; many of the SE students I have worked with at UQ are uber, hardworking and talented students. My problem is with how many of the lecturers see SE; some sort of new fangled compsci.


* I hold two part time jobs because I am still completing my honours year and can’t afford the time to do 1 full time job all year around. The Interaction Designer role comes and goes depending on my free time and the RA is only 9-18 hours a week (depending on funding).

I don't know whether you are doing an SE vs EE thing, but if infact you're actually emphasising the fact that Team Project isn't that great, I might agree with you there. People can slip through doing 0% team work, leech of others, and end up with a 6 for the course. That's pathetic. On the other hand, if you put in the hours, you pick up a lot of handy skills.

That’s what I was reffering to. I imagine (f***, let's be honest; I know) that there are as many awful stories about lame students, no matter what the degree, or major.

I don’t pretend that SE students are more special than others. f***, truth be told I have worked with many IT/SE students and the vast majority of them are slack f***s. (if you or anybody you know is a UQ:IT/SE student and you or they are offended, I didn’t mean you, or the people you know (unless you or they are slackers, in which case; die in fire)).

I failed a LOT of courses, got warned, then excluded, from uni - and not even because of any problems in life, just sort of got into the habit. And I still bounced back from that and got some pretty 'uber' marks for the rest of the degree.

I don't think even being excluded was the wake up call, although it was a pain in the arse to apply to get back in, suck up, do the mandatory counselling etc. It was about half a year later when I realised that I'm not getting any younger and all my friends are graduating and getting these kick arse jobs, buying cars etc, and I was getting nowhere.

Anyone smart enough to get into IT is smart enough to get consistent 6s and 7s assuming their life does not suck. But if you find you are failing things (hi Tung!) and doubt that you're gonna get off your arse next semester, think of your poor old future self with the s***ty GPA you'll end up with, and take a year off or something.

That said, if my plan to do the honours year and get first class honours pans out, ayyy.

Just to give you an indication of how a B.Eng Software can be really unique:

My job is truly multi-disciplinary. At my company, which does power systems and related modelling, we have Software Engineers, Electrical Engineers, Mechanical Engineers, Mathematicians, and Economics types. We all work very closely together depending on the project.

At other times, I'm hooking up with mining engineers, process engineers, and industrial engineers from big companies like BHP, RioTinto, etc. For instance when I was developing a model for projecting least cost development options for the Mt Isa and the Pilbara (far North West WA) power systems.

Without the mathematics and engineering background I had before going into the straight software stuff later in my degree, my job would be much more of struggle - if I would have got the job at all. Having at least a foundation knowledge of matrix mathematics, advanced calculus, thermodynamics, powerflows, and economic stuff like NPV analysis, Least Cost analysis, etc etc is really valuable. Heck I've even broken out the Chemistry at times when calculating emissions forecasts, or figuring out site-specific operating conditions based on ISO ratings on new gas turbines etc.

so you did some civil engineering s*** aswell orbs?

not a lot, but I did some Statics in 1st year. And it was awesome actually. Had a great lecturer and fun pracs.

Statics involves analysing and designing stuff like trusses; basically anything that isn't moving :)

This thread is 100 times easier to read when people dont dissasemble other peoples posts and write essays to validate their own choices of study.

A few places I have worked, when firms were recruiting placed an extremely large priority on how the person interviews and presents themselves. Sandstone University courses might be looked on slightly more favourably and the same with being able to list the title of engineer. But I doubt that a high percentage actually have indepth knowledge of each courses curriculum.

Unless there is further study you want to be involved with that requires you to take a certain avenue, choose whatever course interests you, get the piece of paper that allows you to sell yourself best, and use it to your advantage.

i've done statics at tafe already orbs :p well the maths of it

That’s what I was reffering to. I imagine (f***, let's be honest; I know) that there are as many awful stories about lame students, no matter what the degree, or major.

Ah good, that's what I was hoping :)

I don't know whether you are doing an SE vs EE thing, but if infact you're actually emphasising the fact that Team Project isn't that great, I might agree with you there. People can slip through doing 0% team work, leech of others, and end up with a 6 for the course. That's pathetic. On the other hand, if you put in the hours, you pick up a lot of handy skills.

I didn't actually do a Team Project subject, but one of the subjects I did in my last semester (INFS3204), the lecturer decided to make a big assignment a "group project". It probably wasn't as badass as the actual Team Project subjects, but it was a major pain in the ass. I ended up doing most of the programming in the two weeks before, with two of the other guys who were supposed to be doing all the documentation leaving it almost in its entirety until the night before it was due. The report itself was worth about 2/3s of the marks for the assignment.

In the end we got almost full marks for the coding/presentation side and did OK in the reporting side, but nowhere near as good as I think we could have done had the other guys spent more time on it.

Group work is great if you know the people you're going to be working with well - but otherwise its just such a pain in the ass having to rely on total strangers. I avoided group assessment subjects as much as I could in the last couple years.

Group work is great if you know the people you're going to be working with well - but otherwise its just such a pain in the ass having to rely on total strangers. I avoided group assessment subjects as much as I could in the last couple years

It's funny how lecturers immediately bring up the fact that in "the real world", you'd have to learn how to deal with you fellow workers and that this is good practice. Right, in the real world, your lazy team members would get FIRED in no time if they did not show results .. and you would not have to put up with this s***.

I haven't been at uni as long as you, but having done 1 year of IT, 1 year of Science and 1/2 a year of MicroElec at Griffith, and 3 years of EE at UQ, I have not had a single good team-based experience out of all of the courses that were structured so (there were many!). In most of the courses I've done more than 75% of the work, mainly due to laziness, indifference, and lack of quality and consistency on the part of the other students (one lazy guy took 5 weeks to create a new window in VB). I ended up getting 7s for those courses where I panicked and ended up doing all the work, but my other courses suffered badly :/

And likewise, I avoid team-based projects like the plague now. That's why I'm really looking forward to 4th year thesis. No more relying on others, own schedule, getting the exact results that you put in the hours for. Less unknowns.

last edited by parabol at 10:57:45 24/Dec/05

And I think OP's are important, even if it is only so you can get in to uni. If you want a high paying job, you pretty much have to go to uni.

What a laugh, it's almost the opposite these days.

If you want a high paying job, you pretty much have to go to uni.

haha thats funny, nice one.

About good/bad team member experiences.

The yearlong advanced IT project (team of 7 people) went surprisingly well. Consider that people may not have worked in such a large team before, and have got to make mistakes before they know how to do it. Everyone sort of settled into his or her specialty, coding, testing, documentation etc.

One thing I did learn was that with uni projects, leave your perfectionism at the door - the end product will not be as good as you hoped unless every team member is a kick-arse workaholic like you. Be content.

Any course structure where slack team members can be identified and penalised / smacked on the bum is a good thing.

This thread is 100 times easier to read when people dont dissasemble other peoples posts and write essays to validate their own choices of study.

Got Tears?

most doctors have the intellectual capacity to be a plumber, few plumbers would have the capcity to be a doctor.

not sure what my point is though.

most doctors also have the tenacity to spend another 12 years at school after the first 12. theres more to life then school. plus you can earn more money being an overpaid exec at a major company. look at geoff dixon, he was a journalist, doesnt even have a uni degree yet he somehow managed to get a 6mil a year job running qantas.

and another thing, ive witnessed it alot in my job. you can be intellectually the smartest person in the world, it doesnt mean you'll be anygood at the job you get.

Hmm, I would've thought alot of the reason doctors can make it through so much schooling is a strong desire to help people. Though I spose there must be ones out there who are in it for the money but chances are they'll realise sooner or later that choosing a career for money isn't a great option.

Also, yeah of course being very intellectual won't necessarily mean you're good at a job, but don't even try to say it won't help/isn't a good thing.

never said that, all i'm implying theres alot more to being competant then brain skillz

no doubt yo