Do you believe with this? Or believe that this is just forcing people to be like us whities?

Personally? I am all for people coming to an english speaking country and being able to speak english.

We have one of the most laxed laws in the world in regards to language and citizenship and people are still wanting to jump up and down and call people racist for wanting us to be in line with the rest of the world.

hell fukin yea, learn english like the rest of the world
dun wanna deal with some retard who cant talk

Or believe that this is just forcing people to be like us whities?

Must disagree with this comment...there are already countries not comprised totally of "whities" that speak english as a primary language.

I think the main concern this brought up was that there is a basic english test as part of the applying for citizenship process, and many people were still gaining citizenship when they couldnt speak or write any english at all.

i have zero problem with people moving to australia from anywhere in the world. All i'd expect is they attempt to fit in and speak the language, NOT try form their own country inside australia where they dont respect our way of life or even speak our language, i find that highly offensive. So i'm all for basic english being a requirement of living here.

For citizenship it isn't unreasonable to expect english language skilz. although, I wouldn't be a citizen of this country if that was the case... so i guess I am a f***tard or something. however, my family immigrated here over 20 years ago and it was a different story back then

For refugee/temporary protection visas and other shizzle it shouldn't apply (obviously)

Kat, perhaps you should take some of your own advice :)

Do you believe with this?

But yes, if I understand what you were trying to say, if you intend on living here, learn the f***ing language. And I don't mean *basic* English either. Don't get me started on the f***ing idiots who whinge about us speaking English when on holidays/business somewhere - they're not living there ffs.

Our immigration laws are a joke.

Raven, I am sorry I made an error with my online post. Hang me out to dry and take away my basic english license

last edited by Kat at 11:12:21 11/Oct/05

please note that :) usually indicates the comment was said in friendly humour, chilllll winst-an

Bah, sorry

Personally I dont understand how these ppl get around, do their finances... generally 'live' in a country where they dont understand the language.

Also I think its just plain lazy not learning English if you want to live in this country. We already have enuf lazy ppl we dont need anymore.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 11:40:52 11/Oct/05

i love it how all the social security pamphletts are written in like a dozen languages. sheesh this is what my taxes are paying for.

i have zero problem with people moving to australia from anywhere in the world. All i'd expect is they attempt to fit in and speak the language, NOT try form their own country inside australia where they dont respect our way of life or even speak our language, i find that highly offensive. So i'm all for basic english being a requirement of living here.

QFT

Not only do I think that new citizens should have basic english skills, I reckon existing residents and people born here should have basic english skills. With people born in another country, I can understand them having some problems...

edit: Correcting my basic english skills

last edited by Mantra at 11:53:18 11/Oct/05

I was gonna mention that too infi, centerlink has a bazillion different languages on their pamphlets, it's nice to know where my tax payments goe to

If you're migrating to another country you'd think it would be in your best interest to at least attempt to learn the language.

heh this reminds me of an episode from full frontal when immigrant was trying to get the citizenship, they spoke perfect english but the immigration doode kept trying to get him to say Australia as "straalia".

PS my engrish is better than yo engrish yo

opec is a dirty azn who doesn't respect the white mans language... stupid monkey... also bashed@qgl

In alot of cases, i have known some asian people whos parents immigrated here and there children were born here. The parents still do not speak english and the children have to translate everything for them.

That people, is what grinds my gears.

you know what also grinds my gears? I hate it when you can't find the droid your looking for.

At least I know how to speel terrine LOL OMG I SO PWNZ YOU OBES

I demand all of the american troops to learn arabic since they'll be living in iraq for the rest of their lives.

KUSS IKHTAK BINTILL GAHBEH !!!

Their not citizens, they are are troops. There is a big difference. I bet most of them can speak a little arabic anyway.

Tiny's sarcasm detector can not even detect sarcasm written in english.

You need to get deported to NZ.



last edited by Booyah at 12:41:05 11/Oct/05

Along with my plans to reject entry would be plans to deport natives who can't tell the difference between "their"/"they're"/"there", "your"/"you're", "its/it's", and who can't write "English" correctly.

:)

Bloody oath. Learn it or go without. If i was in a foriegn country i'd make the effort to learn the language, it's just common decency, and the fact you can't exist that well without it unless you have relatives that know it.

*thumbs up* to mandatory english tests i say.

So the real question is when are they going to make people from Ipswhich learn how to speak english.

hell fukin yea, learn english like the rest of the world
dun wanna deal with some retard who cant talk

amen, end of thread

If only that had some sort of system like this to use qgl, oh it would be a better place.

in further news.. the american president needs speach therapy :/

speech


sorry my sarcasm meter is broken

all for immigrants learning the language. if they want to join our community they should be forced at least adapt our language.

I think it's somewhat of a good idea, but i'd be interested to see how they define 'basic' english.

I sometimes think we don't sing the 2nd verse of the national anthem much anymore is because of the line that goes:

..for those who come across the seas, we've boundless plains to share..

which, in light of our current immigration policy (and the attitude of most white Australians - in my experience) is a bit of a joke.

last edited by korbs at 14:18:25 11/Oct/05

Speaking AS an immigrant i can actually attest to the difficulty of learning another language.
The problem is when they form their own groups and continue speaking their native tongue. I have had immense trouble learning Swedish due to 2 reasons
1. It is a difficult language (ask Mööb's)
2. Everyone speaks 95% perfect english here, so the impetious isn't there to learn it. As soon as i try and make one slight error in pronunciation they immediatly switch to English.
If we forced immigrants to intergrate into our society instead of forming enclaves it would be GREATLY benificial to them learning english and most of the aussie culture.
It is interesting seeing it from another angle though.

but i'd be interested to see how they define 'basic' english

That seems to be the biggest hurdle at the moment. Actually defining that

there's nowhere near enough 4wd's in this thread

http://img94.exs.cx/img94/2640/English_Motherf***er_Do_You_Speak_It.jpg

just use the state education curriculum, make them perform to a grade X level... make X somewhere in the primary school area...

isn't english 1 of the hardest languages to speak in the world? that or chinese. that said though i think they should speak even a tiny bit.

I went to a certain school from grade seven to twelve. In my time there a couple Asian kids managed to spend that whole period not even remotely integrating with everyone else. (ie. People other than mostly immigrant Asians) They never moved out of the Asian 'clique' (which I don’t have a problem with, easy base for friendship is having things in common) but the fact that they never actually learnt to speak English better than most 8 year olds is totally stupid. Perhaps basic English is what an eight year old can speak, however, going to an English speaking school with English-heavy subjects (like English and humanities) requiring some form of moderately advanced writing skills (and speaking skills for orals) and never actually learning to speak English... always seemed to me like they were making an effort NOT to learn English.

To finish on a racist note; I suppose they don’t need to know English to live in Sunnybank :P

isn't english 1 of the hardest languages to speak in the world? that or chinese. that said though i think they should speak even a tiny bit.

f*** off it is ... I had basic english skills at about 3 years old ... how f***ing hard can it be?

http://www.racerssourceinc.com/images/45rt.jpg

English is one of the easiest languages around.

and that's a nice 4 WD Obes.

racism - its the new pink!

f*** off it is ... I had basic English skills at about 3 years old ... how f***ing hard can it be?

It is actually one of the hardest languages, simply because of 'rules' (and lots of them) for pronunciation and spelling, rather than accents on characters and so on.

Just look at all the words that have different spelling and meaning, but exactly the same pronunciation - a basic example is 'pear' and 'pair', would make it hard to learn don’t you think ??

Furthermore, even people fluent in English have vastly different pronunciation of the same words.

Dun get me started on how 'C' is superfluous in the English language either...

---

last edited by rodo|phe at 15:10:30 11/Oct/05

broken engrish is very easy to learn. I mean look at me!

well of course we think its easy because its our main language here. i ment for other people to learn

English is very hard to learn as a second language. As said above, it doesn't 'make sense' as it doesn't follow a lot of the rules

It really depends on your first language as to how hard the second is. Going from a european language (i.e. german) to english is much easier than for someone who knows mandarin.

English is one of the easiest languages around.

You are a complete deads***. Had you studied the language, or other languages even a tiny amount you would realise how blatently wrong that is.

Dun get me started on how 'C' is superfluous in the English language either...

fukk off kunt

you only need one k in fuk, thanks

i have zero problem with people moving to australia from anywhere in the world. All i'd expect is they attempt to fit in and speak the language, NOT try form their own country inside australia where they dont respect our way of life or even speak our language, i find that highly offensive. So i'm all for basic english being a requirement of living here.

nuffsaid...

Dun get me started on how 'C' is superfluous in the English language either...

[small derail]

how is it superfluous ? 'k' is a fine replacement for words with a 'hard c' ( eg. captain, critical, calendar), but what about the 'soft c' words like chair, chapter, chop or chalk ?

[/small derail]

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/germanfamily.html

yes they should learn english. when i was in melbourne, i went into a shop to get tram passes and the guy at the counter had no idea what i was saying to him. its f***ing annoying

yer i know, i heard someone say it once and it is largely true, except for the 'ch' sound...

but then why is 'c' used for the hard 'c' sound ??

similar thing with 'g' and 'j', in the word 'digital' for example the 'g' is pronounced like a 'j', yet the word 'dig' it is pronounced like a 'g'...

the only way to know the prnoucination is by hearing it over and over, there isn't an accent or something on the character telling you it is hard or soft sound, or a 'g' or 'j' sound etc etc

stupid language

Fuknukle said it best

hell fukin yea

http://www.texasoffroad.net/albums/ohv/album25/DumpBumpMatt4.jpg

It is actually one of the hardest languages, simply because of 'rules' (and lots of them) for pronunciation and spelling, rather than accents on characters and so on.

I dunno about that, I'd say that's a bit subjective, despite how often I hear it. I found learning German a pain in the backside because they apply gender rules to nouns. Japanese on the other hand wasn't so problematic.

I talked to someone at the bus stop who was really sweet and all she could say was "no english" "daughter english, me no english"

compare that to kathleen who is a prick and speaks perfect english

who do you want in your country?

sunnybank should declare itself a sovereign nation. i hate that place

http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/img/G_flipp.jpg

Immigrants don't need a major from oxford uni to know enough english to get by in daily life taggs.

yeah it's not like immigrants need to know how to read a novel, but there are important signs, rules and instructions which they need to know to get around australia legally and safe, e.g. road rules, basic welfare rules, public transport etc

to imigrate to sweden, you have to know swedish.. so whats the big deal?

I think most people will agree that immigrants should be allowed to enter the country without speaking the english language (its harder to learn it outside an english speaking country) but they should learn some english when they enter the country.

Immigrants don't need a major from oxford uni to know enough english to get by in daily life taggs.

you're a complete f***ing spastic, id expalin why but you would miss the point as always. please leave the thread and preferably the forums before you flaunt your intellectual shortcomings further.

last edited by maxe at 17:34:41 11/Oct/05

compare that to kathleen who is a prick and speaks perfect english

I think I may need shooting, given that the first verbal response in my head to that was "pft, I'd take Kathleen any day".

*shakes head*

I don't mind people new to the country or our language as long as you can see they are really putting in an effort to at least reach an understandable level of english in both speech and reading comprehension.

Even an understanding of our literacy and numeracy to a grade three level is sufficient to get through about 90% of our daily endevours in this country.

If I can see the person is making the effort to learn I will do everything in my power to be supportive and help them along on their way.

Conversely if they can't be bothered to make any effort I won't give them the time of day.

but what if they needed the time of day to be able to catch a bus to the hospital to save someone's life?

Well I guess they should have thought about that before they decided they didn't need to communicate with us and fob us off as too unimportant to talk to.

If it's an australian victim who's dying i would just ask them whats going on anyway ;P

If you start ever study language politics and language rights, you realise what a messy situation this is (ick, I'm so over it). But it does irk me that people can live here for years and not learn enough english to get by. Just by living in sunnybank for 9 years I"ve learned some rudimentary mandarin. It really isn't that hard.

Plus the fact that there are free english lessons at most, if not all, TAFE institutions. There's a small registration fee (like $15) then free english lessons for ANYBODY, at different times through the day. They have english lessons for foreigners and english classes for english speakers who have language difficulties.

They are showing no appreciation for the new country giving them a new life by not learning anything. All take take take.

Immigrants don't need a major from oxford uni to know enough english to get by in daily life taggs.

Show me where I said anything like that? Oh that's right, I didn't. I was just pointing out what you said earlier was f***ing retarded. But I'm sure that went right over your head as well...

People should make the effort to learn the native language. I stayed/lived in France for periods of time and I made the effort. I can (or could it's getting rusty) speak fairly fluent french. That was unbelievably f***in hard because there is so much more to learning a language then memorising a couple of thousand words, french being one of the easiest to learn. But that's probably lost on half the rednecks in this thread.

They are showing no appreciation for the new country giving them a new life by not learning anything. All take take take.

Go die. Seriously.

I work for an insurance call centre. You have no f***ing idea how many foreigners call up from a bank branch or something like that with someone who is able to translate their native language to take out a policy or some such. The problem is, at LEAST 80% of the time, they have been an Australian Citizen for more than 5 years.

Sorry, but if you're going to live in my f***ing country for more than FIVE YEARS, you should at least have a basic grasp of the language. Anything less is just lazy.

I'm not gonna get on the bandwagon and say that there should be very strict laws saying that people can only become a citizen if they can speak our language - that'd be somewhat ignorant. I don't know their situation in their home country, I don't know what kind of tutelage / literature is available to them. However, if you don't know basic english when you enter the country for whatever reason, you had better take advantage of OUR schools / literature, and learn it.

Pretty funny thread. I was thinking about trying to live in a non english speaking country (a scandinavian one) after i finish here.... so I would be the non native speaking immigrante.

I wonder if their attitudes would be the same as here?

But that's probably lost on half the rednecks in this thread.

amen

Pfft nobody should say it's easy but thats not the point.
The effort in actually trying whether you have really bad understanding of our language or not is what matters.

Even if the person has to use half charades and broken english to speak to you but are really trying to put the effort in and not just give up and get angry when you don't understand them that is what matters and i can sympathise and feel for them.
In that situation my patience is near endless, but don't get s***ty at me if i don't understand 'your' language in 'my' country and refuse to learn 'my' language to help communication.

I thought this thread was about 4wd's ?

You live here you abide by our rules and speak english... GOSH! IS IT SO HARD!

Pharcyde - what languages are the main culprits ?

English speaking countries are notorious for their lack of language planning.

Edit: Oh, on a side note: I went to the transport department yesterday and they had Chinese numbers under the regular numbers on each of the booths... Seriously... If you don't know the number system or symbols used in English, WHAT THE f*** ARE YOU DOING DRIVING ON AUSTRALIAN ROADS?

last edited by Crizane Tribal at 20:57:14 11/Oct/05

If I was going to become a citizen of another country I would be my intention to learn the national language. I can't imagine how ignorant you must be to move to another country and have no intention of learning how to interact with the citizens of your new country.

I'm all for new citizens to value their traditonal culture, to make social clubs about their culture and to celibrate the things that make them and their culture cool. That kind of melting pot of cultures is wickedly cool, as it means that the national culture slowly morphs and changes to incorperate all of the cultures within.

If people hide in their little pockets of home then it makes divisions. Divisions simply isn't a good thing in any part of society.

The problem is, at LEAST 80% of the time, they have been an Australian Citizen for more than 5 years.

Sorry, but if you're going to live in my f***ing country for more than FIVE YEARS, you should at least have a basic grasp of the language. Anything less is just lazy.

The problem is even worse than that. They would have had to have been living in Australia for a number of years before being able to claim Australian citizenship. So, they would have been living here for closer to a decade.

Or to put that in perspective, they would have been living here for (on average) at least 1/7th of their entire natural life before picking up the phone.

If I was going to become a citizen of another country I would be my intention to learn the national language. I can't imagine how ignorant you must be to move to another country and have no intention of learning how to interact with the citizens of your new country.

honestly, I could say the same about most of the americans, british and/or australians whom i've met who supposedly have been in asia for years. though it also means i can scheme and plot right infront of them and they won't even have a clue ;)

@ taggs insults which shows no valid counter point avaliable.

Fish - Yes, that is at least one advantage to being multilingual. haha.

@ taggs insults which shows no valid counter point avaliable.

as opposed to your earlier reply which had no bearing on his origional comment

Let me paraphrase it for you

A_W: english is easy to learn!

taggs: English is the most difficult language to learn, had you

studied languages of any sort you would know that it isnt

A_W: duuur they dont need to study it! Just learn it!

are you 12 years old or what? Every comment youve ever made on anything has been complete bulls***. Just f*** off, you're worse than Kat.

^^ maxe, no need to get nasty. a simple "your a dumbass" would do. but i share you annoyance. A_W im suprised you dont talk like omg!1 if u dont stop hax0ring ill hax ur computer wit virus cos i got 1337 skillz

there needs more SCOGGEX itt

what would any of these hapless sucks know about English skills

My grandfather came out here, by himself without being able to speak English, when he was 13. He refused to teach any of his 10+ kids how to speak his native language, citing "You are in Australia now, speak the language of it's people"
Albeit I lost part of my heritage because of his decision however, I have the utmost respect for it and can't see any reason why other immigrants shouldn't do similar...

honestly, I could say the same about most of the americans, british and/or australians whom i've met who supposedly have been in asia for years. though it also means i can scheme and plot right infront of them and they won't even have a clue ;)

1) I never suggested that non-asians in asia have this problem.

2) My post wasn't directed to people of different cultures who are living or working in in a country who have no intention of becoming a citizen of that nation.


## Edit: But I see your point. Those people are lazy f***ers and should at least be able to say "I'd f*** you for 10 dollers", "I want to eat that.", "That food looks like dog s***" and "This beer tasts like piss, Australian beer tastes much better. Hey let's tag team your girlfriend!"


last edited by typo at 00:26:16 12/Oct/05

English is a f***ed up language to learn. Especially when you're first language is arabic. Different pronounciations altogether and not to mention the fact that in arabic you write right to left instead of left to right. Even the numbers are written different.

Some of my dad's mates have been in australia for over 5 years and they still get the P's and B's mixed around. That's what happens when you're over 40 and have never previously spoken a word of english in your life. There's no set of rules they can go by like they do in arabic and it really frustrates them. It's what you get when english is comprised of words from Latin, Greek, French, German, Arabic, Hindi, farsi and who knows what else.

I dont agree with the test being taken before coming to the country but conducting manditory courses for them once they arrive seems more reasonable.


last edited by Booyah at 00:39:17 12/Oct/05

Post some more pictures of yourself max, at least that's one thing your good at. now back to the general discussion of the thread. Migrants should take a basic english course after settling in the country.

Mööby, you said
"to imigrate to sweden, you have to know swedish.. so whats the big deal?"

I have no idea where you got that from??

Post some more pictures of yourself max, at least that's one thing your good at. now back to the general discussion of the thread. Migrants should take a basic english course after settling in the country.

funny, you're the only one who hasnt been able to post an argument based on any logic or intelligence. In fact that completely redundant re-stating of the first post is about as on-topic as you have been so far.

taggs already covered everything I was going to say, so the only thing left was to point out your stupidity.

OK, since languages and linguistics are my area of expertise, I thought I should step in and clear a few things up.

i love it how all the social security pamphletts are written in like a dozen languages

That's probably to cover our ass for international laws held by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Although international law doesn't automatically become Australian law, we still protect some basic language rights to keep other countries from getting pissy at us.

isn't english 1 of the hardest languages to speak in the world? that or chinese

English is one of the easiest languages around.

It doesn't really work like that. It really relates to language families. For example, French and spanish are both Romance languages (that doesn't mean they belong in a Mills & Boon novel, it means they're descended from Latin). Therefor, it should be easier for a french person to learn Spanish than say Chinese.

English is very hard to learn as a second language. As said above, it doesn't 'make sense' as it doesn't follow a lot of the rules

I kinda covered this earlier, but it has to have rules and follow them or it wouldn't be a language :P. The "rules" are just very complicated. English may have wacky spelling or punctuation, but this is compensated by a lack of tonals and gender.

I had basic english skills at about 3 years old

That's because you still had your Language Acquisition Device (LAD). Basically, this allows you to learn your mother tongue(s) at a rapid rate with little or no effort. Unfortunately, this ability to absorb languages deteriorates with age and usually dies out during puberty. Since adults do not have the LAD, they find language learning much more difficult and must resort to a cognitive approach.

/seriousness

Along with my plans to reject entry would be plans to deport natives who can't tell the difference between "their"/"they're"/"there", "your"/"you're", "its/it's", and who can't write "English" correctly.

Well, Raven, if you ever ran for PM you'd have my vote, good sir!

sunnybank should declare itself a sovereign nation. i hate that place

I've lived in Shrantybank for 11 years. f*** off and die.

last edited by Crizane Tribal at 02:45:38 12/Oct/05

hey yeah, where in the heck did I put that language acquisition device of mine?

Wish I'd got interested in foreign languages as a child, now I'm actually forced to learn.

australia is a bit of a hole anyway so i dont know why people would want to come live here. personaly if i could i'd live in japan. 6 1/2 years learning japanese in school and i forgot 95% of it. such a shame

Kat - Next time name the Thread: “Ignorance is Bliss”… or more appropriately, “For racists living under their rock, please comment”…


To extrapolate on Crizane Tribal’s comments, specifically

Unfortunately, this ability to absorb languages deteriorates with age

Imo, there are two broad groups of Asians (since they seem to be the targeted group of this thread) that immigrate to Australia

1) The legal and illegal group that are trying to start a better life for their family (children).
- Predominately uneducated/minimally educated in their country of origin
- Do jobs that most Australians prefer not to do
- Majority of their children speak rudimentary to fluent English, depending on the length of time since they have immigrated.

So, the parents of these children, understandably so, may find it hard to learn a new language, but they do contribute to the economy and don’t deserve to be ostracised by ignorant Australians, especially since our country has been supported and developed on the backs of so many immigrants (Asian included).

2) The legal business people (majority of) working in the service sector
- Educated in their country of origin
- Majority speak fluent English


The point is that Australia takes on all walks of life and cultures (and different levels of English comprehension), making Australia one of the most multi-cultural countries in the world. I dont believe, 57k people that have no English comprehension (per the last census) that Australia has a problem. Literacy rates at over 90-100%, depending on the statistic or fact book you look at and the 4th highest literacy rating in the world (as at 2005), is certainly not a reason to slap immigrants with unfounded and/or overgeneralised remarks.

Every year another 100 odd thousand people immigrate to Australia, for the redneck QLDers you will be glad to know that less then 50% of the immigrants to QLD are of Asian origin, unfortunately 30% are NZs!! ;) jks!

Yes, ‘non-engrish speaking’ communities do develop, the contributing factors are diverse and long, however, instead of being the ignorant and naïve person that you are, changing your attitude towards others would go a long way in helping integration. It is far easier to integrate into an accepting culture then one of resentment.

On a side note, start learning Chinese, as you will find it easier to learn now then later on, as imo the majority of Australia’s trade/business will be done with our emerging Asian counterpart!!

"The legal and illegal group that are trying to start a better life for their family (children).
but they do contribute to the economy and don’t deserve to be ostracised by ignorant Australians."

Sure i chopped up your statement a bit but only to take the pertinent part that really stuck out to me.
Your argument is laughable in this section for obvious reasons, try to guess what they are "ignorant American".

I've lived in Shrantybank for 11 years. f*** off and die.

Aren't you that guy with yellow fever who hated getting weird looks when going into asian grocers?

Your argument is laughable in this section for obvious reasons, try to guess what they are "ignorant American".

No, I would actually just like for you to state your own thoughts.

"ignorant American".

And since your location states that you are in Mackay, should I just assume that you are an "ignorant hick" that hasnt travelled outside of Australia let alone QLD?

last edited by twat at 08:25:12 12/Oct/05

On a side note, start learning Chinese

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Anyone who does will spot the obvious.

Bring on the Universal Translator!

twat and Crizane take the lead in this thread

twat i dont think its right to label people ignorant and racist because they are worried about the overflowing populations of other countries,coming to australia with little to nothing and no basic english skills .

Aren't you that guy with yellow fever who hated getting weird looks when going into asian grocers?

Lol, I remember that thread. I don't have yellow fever, in fact I've never dated an asian girl :P

I do however appreciate cultures other than my own, and I enjoy a lot of asian foods (particularly Shin Ramen noodles). I can understand an asian grocer's suspicion of a young white guy entering their store after the amount of racism I've encountered and witnessed in this country.

Also, Australians are notorious for not learning a second language, even when they immigrate or live in a country for an extended period of time. (sorry, can't find a linky to back that up ><)

is Twat an actual yank or just someone living abroad??

And CT's 2nd last post is win. interesting reading and good points.

Everyone has a right to stay the way they are sure, but is it really healthy for society when pockets of culturally identical people set up their own localities, or even ghettos, with the implied expectation that people not from that culture are not really welcome?

I don't think it has reached the level in Australia where you would call it dangerous but there are plenty of places in Australia's major cities which people not from a specific cultural group would not feel comfortable travelling into that suburb/locality (Sydney's West is a prime example).

This can even be socio-economic, I remember watching that report on "Sunday " a few months back about Macquarie Fields down in Sydney. OMG scary ghettos no one knows about.

Australia is a very egalitarian society which permits anyone to venture into virtually any social class etc. if they make themselves (look at that talentless hack toni pearen she's a-list thanks to a home movie show about being kicked in the nuts.)

Warren Mundine in last week's bulletin made a good point to this effect about his fellow indigenous australians. Either they can keep their ancient traditions and hence their poor quality of life (hygiene, life expectation, education etc) or they can modernise and benfit from improved standards of living. They can't have both.

This sort of strays from the main point of basic English skills for migrants but I believe it is relevant.

When you're in Rome, you gotta do what the Romans do.

Ok, A_W I'm going to show you why you are a complete deads***. Please follow.

You said:

@ taggs insults which shows no valid counter point avaliable.

Maxe said:

as opposed to your earlier reply which had no bearing on his origional comment

Let me paraphrase it for you

A_W: english is easy to learn!

taggs: English is the most difficult language to learn, had you

studied languages of any sort you would know that it isnt

A_W: duuur they dont need to study it! Just learn it!

You said:

Post some more pictures of yourself max, at least that's one thing your good at. now back to the general discussion of the thread. Migrants should take a basic english course after settling in the country.

So um, where's your available counter point A_W?

the problem with english is that it doesn't follow its own rules and thats what makes it so difficult to learn.

the most obvious one is i before e except after c (not that this is a real language rule) is not always correct. Also whether you should say an elephant or a elephant. The common rule is that if the word starts with a vowel then you use 'an' otherwise it's 'a' but again this isn't always true.

Then there are other random words. Book is a good example. You can read a book, you can book a ticket, a cop can book you for speeding, you can check the books, you can do things by the book, you can run a book on a race, you can get the book on someone etc etc.

How many bloody meanings can one word have?? i think that would be very confusing for someone trying to learn English as a second language.

My idea of a language is that you learn a few basic rules and can then do anything using those. But in English if you want to say certain things they are uniquely structured sentences for that particular thing and you can't just substitute things willy nilly to make different meanings. it blows. someone needs to figure out a good language from scratch that is easy to learn and expand logically upon.

Enrish is a proper f***ed lanugage to learn, especially as a second language. Spidz is right. English started out from a bunch of nordic/germanic languages, then french and latin got thrown in when William the Conqueror took over. Then the renaissance chucked a heap of greek in and even more latin. Then an assload of foreign words got added during the time of the British Empire. And during that time the language has been constantly evolving to become one of the largest and most versatile in the world. Know why it's so versatile? Cause it never follows the rules. Well, yes it does, some of the time, but the rules are mostly pretty complicated.

You can't say English makes up for that by not having genders and other things like the romance languages do. Genders are simple, because the follow the rules all the time. Seriously, go learn another language and you will see this. I thought learning french was hard but when I look back on it I'd rather learn french 3 times over than try to learn english.

he problem with english is that it doesn't follow its own rules and thats what makes it so difficult to learn.

the most obvious one is i before e except after c (not that this is a real language rule) is not always correct. Also whether you should say an elephant or a elephant. The common rule is that if the word starts with a vowel then you use 'an' otherwise it's 'a' but again this isn't always true.

Then there are other random words. Book is a good example. You can read a book, you can book a ticket, a cop can book you for speeding, you can check the books, you can do things by the book, you can run a book on a race, you can get the book on someone etc etc.

How many bloody meanings can one word have?? i think that would be very confusing for someone trying to learn English as a second language.

And that's not even including stupid s*** like prural & singular when word changes with some strang exceptions like Fish not fishes, Cactii not Cactuses but bus you can buses. Then you have you past, present, future tense, noun, pro-noun blah blah blah. Then you add local slangs, and accents to the mix.

Where as most other languages when you refer to "many" things like many cats, you'd say many cat - without the stupid crap of having to change the words - because the word "many" already implied, well more than 1.

English language has the most complicated and f***ed up rules - some of which noone could explained properly - it's like just 'cause. Spoken/Broken engish isn't too hard to learn since most people can sort of guessed what you're talking about (within reasons) but written english is just very difficult.

That's what you get when you mashed all sorts of language together I guess - AFAIK the english language is very new compared to hebrew, arabic, french, spanish etc. and it's constantly evolving like any living language.

I'm sure most people will have trouble learning another language if it was so complicated like the English language. That's why most older immigrants just give up/won't bother because it's too hard.

The common rule is that if the word starts with a vowel then you use 'an' otherwise it's 'a' but again this isn't always true

Actually thats not the rule, unfortunately your english teachers were all hopeless bums, or you were just an inatentive student. Hey given you went to ippie it was probably both.
Use an in place of a when it precedes a vowel sound, I think there is a more technical word for that "vowel sound" but f*** knows what it is.

eg. an MRI (em-are-eye) and a Euro (yoo-row)

french is easy to learn, I made a small effort at japanese and gave up, but I'm told it's not too hard. I've also tried Thai and Mandarin. thai isn't so hard to learn to speak, but bugger the actualk writing and alphabet. I'm persisting with mandarin, but its bloody hard!

I think there is a more technical word for that "vowel sound"

You're right Obes. A vowel sound is a sound which is allowed to pass through the vocal tract with little or no effect on air pressure. Vowels just differ due to the position to your tongue. Try it. a-e-i-o-u. Feel how your tongue just moves slightly to make each vowel, but the vowels are allowed to flow free from the mouth. In english we don't call /y/ a vowel, but it is.

Consonants involve some form of air pressure or friction along the way. For example, plosive consonants like [p] and [b]. You build up pressure behind your lips and let it kind of "pop" out. Try it.

In english vowels are always voiced, meaning your vocal chords always vibrate while making them. If you did the litlte [p] and [b] exercise (:P) you'd notice that you make the same mouth motions for both of them. The difference is that [b] is voiced, and [p] is unvoiced, meaning there is no vibration of the vocal chords.

I think you guys are getting too cought up in particulars. If I were a shop keeper, I wouldn't care if an immigrant came in and said "I want buy 2 fishes please". There is enough meaning there for me to understand. I don't think immigrants should be forced to be able to walk in to a shop and say "Good day to you. I wish to purchase two fish from you"

Aren't you that guy with yellow fever who hated getting weird looks when going into asian grocers?

At one point it may have been rare for a white guy to go to these stores but I went to Yuens at market square a few weeks back and there were white people all over the place. People worked out if you want authentic asian foods that doesnt have a crazy marked up price just go to an asian store.

Want asian stuff cheap ?

Go to Sunnybank or the Hypermarket (aspley).

big deal if english is hard to learn ,if they want a better life for themselves and there kids its a small price to pay

Non parlo inglese

if they want a better life for themselves and there kids...

You mean if they want a better life for themselves and THEIR kids?

Nubbin, your name should start with a capital letter.

haha, thats the first nubbin ownage i've seen.

Good example with the shop keeper CT. UNDERSTANDABLE is the keyword here. Unfortunatley many aren't even that. Marketing calls from most big company call centeres for instance.

OK Twat lets look at this again shall we since you would prefer just to avoid the topic and hand out blanketed insults instead of constructive arguments.

""The legal and illegal group that are trying to start a better life for their family (children).
but they do contribute to the economy and don’t deserve to be ostracised by ignorant Australians."

Sure i chopped up your statement a bit but only to take the pertinent part that really stuck out to me.
Your argument is laughable in this section for obvious reasons, try to guess what they are "ignorant American".

No, I would actually just like for you to state your own thoughts.

And since your location states that you are in Mackay, should I just assume that you are an "ignorant hick" that hasnt travelled outside of Australia let alone QLD?"

Hmmm where to start...
I was hoping you had some sort of intellect but since you don't i guess i will have to spell it out for you.
"The legal and illegal group that are trying to start a better life for their family (children)."
Are you therefore advocating the illegal immigration of peoples to our country and telling us since they are now here we have no right to say "hey you came here illegally breaking several of our fundamental immigration laws, your very first act in comming to our country is by defying the laws and strictures that make our country what it is."

Secondly, do you as an American (or maybe just a treveler to america, im not sure) also enjoy all the illegal imigrants just waltzing into your own country, scabbing off your social security systems and draining the resources of the taxes you pay from your own hard work?
If you say yeah sure i don't mind i will laugh in your face as it will just show the integrity of your words to be completely false.

Thirdly, How does defending our rights to have immigrants enter our country on our terms and conditions make us "Ignorant Australians", by the way thanks for the general blanket insult to everyone on these boards.

Fourthly(? :D), Apart from the fact i've been travelling around australia and sometimes abroad since i was a child, what does that actually have to do with your very s***tily put together comment that basically says "Australians have no right to turn away illegal imigrants or complain about them in any way, shape or form"?

Ignorant American

UNDERSTANDABLE is the keyword here. Unfortunatley many aren't even that. Marketing calls from most big company call centeres for instance.

WTF does that have to do with Australian citizens?

An American calling an Australian ignorant.

that is funny.

May i remind you of the "which country should we invade next" video.

Learning English is unpossible.

Good example with the shop keeper CT. UNDERSTANDABLE is the keyword here. Unfortunatley many aren't even that. Marketing calls from most big company call centeres for instance.

What do Indian call centers have to do with imigants who can't speak english?

dont' get me started on those mosques :@

dont' get me started on those mosques

Their bites are really itchy.

And malaria.

Some of them have malaria.

^^ better get your malaria shots then just in case

twat i dont think its right to label people ignorant and racist because they are worried about the overflowing populations of other countries,coming to australia with little to nothing and no basic english skills .

^^ This is an ignorant statement!

idonwannaname – what overflowing populous are you referring to? The largest % of immigrants hail from the UK and NZ! Are you concerned about accents?

So you can be more informed about the ever present danger of yourself being in the minority, please visit http://www.immi.gov.au/statistics/index.htm


Xy, I thought you would present some of your own thoughts but instead you just picked out one word, deliberated on it out of context and then just asked a few questions, hence, adding absolutely nothing to the thread.

The context: I was extending on CTs comments about difficulties in learning English at an older age.

Hmmm where to start...
I was hoping you had some sort of intellect but since you don't i guess i will have to spell it out for you.
"The legal and illegal group that are trying to start a better life for their family (children)."
Are you therefore advocating the illegal immigration of peoples to our country and telling us since they are now here we have no right to say "hey you came here illegally breaking several of our fundamental immigration laws, your very first act in comming to our country is by defying the laws and strictures that make our country what it is."

No, I am advocating that due to Australia’s generosity and tolerance, under our laws and regulation we allow ~ upto 10k humanitarian visas every year (in which the above people would fall under). I was further emphasizing that these people are usually of poor or no education (they may not even be able to read and write in their own language) and would therefore find it even harder to learn a new language. But what you said makes more sense… I guess?

Secondly, do you as an American (or maybe just a treveler to america, im not sure) also enjoy all the illegal imigrants just waltzing into your own country, scabbing off your social security systems and draining the resources of the taxes you pay from your own hard work?
If you say yeah sure i don't mind i will laugh in your face as it will just show the integrity of your words to be completely false.

Not relevant to this thread, but here is my brief response anyway:
Mexicans do a lot of the jobs that Americans don’t want to do, they also contribute to the economy. Do I believe that we should just build a big wall across the border of US and Mexico? No, a better alternative is to address the issue of why they are immigrating; if you ask any Mexican/latin american, it is simply the opportunity for a better life. So if the US was to help develop Mexico (and other near by countries) the need for a ‘better life’ in the US would be less pertinent.

Thirdly, How does defending our rights to have immigrants enter our country on our terms and conditions make us "Ignorant Australians", by the way thanks for the general blanket insult to everyone on these boards.

If you take it as an insult then I probably am referring to you (and… your welcome), otherwise, most people would agree with my points.

Fourthly(? :D), Apart from the fact i've been travelling around australia and sometimes abroad since i was a child, what does that actually have to do with your very s***tily put together comment that basically says "Australians have no right to turn away illegal imigrants or complain about them in any way, shape or form"?

My mate back in school, many moons ago, could speak perfect English and was intelligent, he participated in sports, etc etc… very all round Australian guy, except he was Vietnamese born and both his parents were illegal immigrants. They lived in Darra, they worked hard, paid for his education and they spoke very little English.

One of my best mates now, his oldies were legal immigrants (25 years ago) from Hungary, spoke little English then, worked hard as a fitter and turner, started his own business, and (semi-)retired quite successfully.

Is it so hard to understand that other people are trying to make a better life and were born/raised in unfortunate circumstances? All I am saying is to have some tolerance and understanding of others. However, I don’t want to interrupt your right to bitch, but I thought I would just point out that having a more optimistic attitude will be healthier for yourself and Australia! :)

:) Im glad you decided to clear all that up Twat and agree with many of your sentiments, it seems i have also misunderstood some things about your previous posts.

Im not some inarticulate hick and you will find very few people on these forums are.
You came off very hostile towards Australians and our right to protect our own country and laws without a thought to how we might feel about what you were saying to begin with.
There is no need to catch our attention in this way, simply bring about a decent argument to begin with and we will listen.

But the point still stands that breaking laws to start a new life doesn't get you off on the right foot.
Choosing to flaunt our laws and then expecting us to simply "get over it" is very wrong and doesn't endear anyone in this country to their cause.
Respect us and our laws upon entering our country (whether they be a mandatory learning of the english language or to not steal or murder) and we will all get along just fine.

to solve this the entire world should just speak esperanto

Nah !33+ speak $h()U1|) |33 teh universal laungage.

Since some of the comments in this thread seem to be pointed at asians, I just thought I'd point out that China is a country where only 68% of natives speak the national language Mandarin as their first language.

Edit: Also, Spook knows the score. Esperanto FTW. The next language I'm going to learn is Esperanto, to help bridge me into learning German.

last edited by Crizane Tribal at 09:58:46 13/Oct/05

why can't we all love each others

Twat I'll be upfront and honest I'm totally racist against America and any Terrorist country. Im happy to leave down here in bumf*** Orstralia and nice, english speaking, non-violent, hard-working ppl can come and join me no matter what their color or religion.

All except yanks who are the most ingnorant and greedy ppl on the planet and are selling our childrens futures for a quick buck.



last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 10:37:02 13/Oct/05

So Twat is a real yank then? not just someone living abroad?

shut up you fkn immigrant.

Im happy to leave down here in bumf*** Orstralia and nice, english speaking, non-violent, hard-working ppl can come and join me no matter what their color or religion.

I had a huge counter, but I deleted it... less then 0.5% of the australian population do not speak English, i am not concerned. Unless there are some deep seeded concerns that someone would like to raise, then this is really a non-issue.

Twat I'll be upfront and honest I'm totally racist against America and any Terrorist country... All except yanks who are the most ingnorant and greedy ppl on the planet and are selling our childrens futures for a quick buck.

Maybe for another thread.

Twat I'll be upfront and honest I'm totally racist against America and any Terrorist country.

What the hell is a Terrorist country?

umm haven't you heard ot terroriststan?

Yeh, that didnt come out too well.

Anyway...

twat i dont care what the percentages of this and that of people who choose to enter australia legally but , we need to have some guidelines and standards . basic english is not a big ask.

if entering illegaly then thats invading and thats a different story.