Hey guys,

It's time for my work to update their virus scanner! We have about 8 computers incl server that will need a virus scanner.
We use a lot of VPN stuff and I have heard certain virus scanners can interfere with that.
We currently use mcaffee but a few of the computers have recently got a virus that changed the userinit registry key to stop the profile from loading in xp. Mcaffee didn't even blink an eye lid! There are a few other problems as well such as a recent msn virus that have made me not trust mcaffee. While I am pretty good with computers the rest of my work is basically useless!
Can anyone recommend a good virus scanner, that is fairly simple? I don't want to have to allow each and every freaking program we want to run (because everyone else in the office will call me when theres a new program that wants access and I have work to do!).
I have norton corporate at home (yes legit) and its not too bad. No firewall, and no spyware detection though. Spyware detection would be a plus because it seems we get a bit of it. Maybe even a spam filter (but it can't miss a beat we have client emails go missing and we are f***ed).

Any suggestions?

NIS?

nah, probably too expensive

We use McAfee and it SUCKS A DICK.

We use Trend here and it works a treat.

Trend here too and its been good

One more vote for Trend Micro OfficeScan

We use McAffe, (VirusScan Enterprise + HIPS)

Mind you, thats for ~ 5,000 computers...

Dont use NIS, it takes over everything and seems to f*** more than it helps.

just switched from AVG Pro to trend. AVG Pro was good, but Trend is the shizznit.

Another vote for anything other than Norton products.

They can often do more harm to the system than the viruses they are trying to protect you from.

+1 for AVG

also i've found nortons and mcaffe s*** for the last 10 years, tru story.

We use Symantec Corporate Edition @ UQ. Our centre has no problems with Virus's, easy to setup local definition distribution services, easy to use logs identifying un-updated machines and virus hits. And for my money the best feature, an english speaking help desk if you have any problems.

sounds like you guys are too newb to use norton, i admit, its not for beginners

+1 for Symantec Corp

Trend +1

Imagine if you just ran Linux on your desktops! You wouldn't need virus scanners. You'd save billions, if not squillions.

The heartache and support on running Linux desktop's with noobs behind them would by far overshadow the cost of a virus scanner on Windows.

My only requisites for a corp virus scanner are:

1) updates from the vendor are released often and they have a decent delivery infrastructure in place
2) initial install and subsequent updates can be deployed to client machines from a central server, and deployment interface isn't an MMC-embedded web app
*3) trog doesn't whinge LIKE A f***ING BITCH about it


* unrealistic requisite, included for novelty only

trend officescan here @ work. avg at home.
norton is worse than the virii.

Imagine if you just ran Linux on your desktops! You wouldn't need virus scanners. You'd save billions, if not squillions.

except for the hours and hours and hours of training and support ud have to provide

except for the hours and hours and hours of training and support ud have to provide

and all the money ud lose due to the lack of productivity tools

just curious, is there a messaging client, like msn/icq, for linux? and is it open source?

Jim,

either AVG or Trend is your solution. gogogogo

We found nod32 better then sophos.

cheers fade
approve/disapprove trog? :D

except for the hours and hours and hours of training and support ud have to provide

"Click this when you want the Internet. Click this when you want Word."

The heartache and support on running Linux desktop's with noobs behind them would by far overshadow the cost of a virus scanner on Windows.

Windows people often say that, but I don't really see it. It's been years since I had to support Windows desktops; what's the biggest pain in the ass on Windows these days generally?

just curious, is there a messaging client, like msn/icq, for linux? and is it open source?

There's about eleventy billion of them. Pidgin is a good Google start point.

*3) trog doesn't whinge LIKE A f***ING BITCH about it

ahahah

eTrust antivirus by CA. 30,000+ desktops. don't know if it's any good, we have stupidly prohibitive email filtering, no internet access and usb and external drives disabled.

last edited by natslovR at 13:16:11 21/Aug/07

except for the hours and hours and hours of training and support ud have to provide

"Click this when you want the Internet. Click this when you want Word."

dont deal much with users eh?

Strange Rash: have a look at pidgin. Formerly known as GAIM (which i think stood for something like GNU's Not Unix Image Manipulation Program Tool Kit America On Line Instant Messenger)

dont deal much with users eh?

? What training and support are you talking about?

+ Symantec Corporate Edition

you would have to teach every single user on the network how to use the new OS. Imagine if a university suddenly changed all of its machines to linux. You would have to teach virtually every single student a new system, which would be a pain but most students could handle it... f***ing academics would be the most painful thing in the world to have to retrain. Plus, what do you do? Hold massive lectures every day for the next couple months until everyone has been trained how it works?

edit: I guess the main issue is that generally the average user, especially older ones, learn individual processes for each program they use, rather than take advantage of a consistant UI like windows. So while most people who are a bit computer savvy can jump between new programs and feel relatively at home because they are used to the pre-existing UI structure, you have average users who suddenly have to relearn every single program they used. And that means you cant just teach them how the new OS functions and expect them to catch up with each program change on their own. You would have to teach them how to use each individual program as well as how they are accessed in the new OS.

edit2: Not to mention, you would be getting calls for a greatly increased amount of s*** because every little problem that most people know how to fix in windows could suddenly be unsolvable under the new OS.

PAIN in BALLS.

last edited by qmass at 13:42:12 21/Aug/07

link to AVG SBS internet security


Centrally controlled desktop and server protection against all of the most common Internet threats, including viruses, worms, trojans, spyware, adware combined with desktop anti-spam and firewall protection. Ideal protection for small businesses.

Includes

* Anti-Virus protects from viruses, worms and trojans
* Anti-Spyware protects from spyware, adware and other malicious programs
* Anti-Spam filters spam and protects against phishing attacks (desktop only)
* Firewall provides individual security against hackers (desktop only)
* Central administration of all features, including desktop firewall, updates, and scheduling
* Protection for desktops, notebooks, file servers and e-mail servers

Features

* Reduces administrator workload and security costs
* New program versions and updates, for free, throughout the license duration
* Quality proven by all major antivirus certifications (VB100%, ICSA, West Coast Labs Checkmark)
* 24/7 technical support provided at no extra cost
* Improved virus detection based on better heuristics and NTFS data streams scanning
* Unique automatic threat-removal anti-spyware engine
* Automatic firewall profile switching for improved security and usability

Norton

you would have to teach every single user on the network how to use the new OS.

This seems like massively less of a deal than teaching them the differences between Word and OpenOffice and Firefox and IE

you greatly over estimate the power of the end user troggles

it will be your downfall

office scan - accept no other

I will shutup, I'm derailing.

I will shutup, I'm derailing.

But what is more to say on topic :( At least this is a semi-interesting discussion which has risen from just another "question I could have googled" thread. Christ, if every single thread on QGL didnt derail, this forum would be soooo f***ed...

Im not in IT, I just assume that outcome above because of my very negitive opinion of people... though I think its probably semi-accurate. I was hoping one of you actual network admins would be able to tell it how it is.

Trog you need to deal with a true end user.

Click on the foo icon in your system tray ?
-- where's the system tray ?
Down the bottom right near the clock ?
-- My clock is on the wall ?
No, there is one on your computer ?
-- when did you put that there ?
It's always been there
-- No it hasn't

... Ok ... Anyway click on the foo icon

woah...

*3) trog doesn't whinge LIKE A f***ING BITCH about it

* unrealistic requisite, included for novelty only

Thats the funniest thing I've ever seen you say Jim.

Also... Trog, I know in my situation at least, there is no way people would accept linux on desktop. Spook is right, there would be HOURS and HOURS of training required, and then we would need extra staff to support the newbs.

Spook is right, there would be HOURS and HOURS of training required, and then we would need extra staff to support the newbs.

Hours of training you really only need to do once, and then you never have to pay a Microsoft license fee again?

I deal with end users quite a bit; at the very least I read a lot of support stuff that we do with BigPond users. I personally handle the support for AusGamers Files and BigPond Files as well, so contrary to what some people are thinking I have a pretty good idea how ridiculously uncoordinated most computer operators are.

I think OS-wise is a much smaller deal than people are thinking. I've read a lot of comments on Slashdot about people that have moved their computer-useless parents/grandparents over to Linux, explained the basics ("click this for internet", "here is your My Documents folder") and that's it, they're happy.

Office situations are different because people are used to Microsoft's office suite, but if you're not doing heavy duty word processing there's little reason to stay with Windows (unless of course you're stuck with legacy apps on Windows). So many apps now are web-based anyway and moving that way; thin clients ftw.

As soon as the jerks at Mozilla figure out they should feature-freeze Firefox and work on Thunderbird for an Outlook replacement, I'll be happy.

Also... Trog, I know in my situation at least, there is no way people would accept linux on desktop.

Well, if you're in an office-type situation, whether or not they "accept" it is beside the point. If it can replace Windows and let them do their job with zero loss of productivity (except for the aforementioned hours of training), then its going to be a winner all round.

I've found truly clueless people are clueless no matter what OS they run.

NOD32 on laptops and desktop.
Trend on the servers.

i moved my main pc to vista and the new office at xmas. my gf, who uses it every day, still bitches about 'stupid f***ing vista'. i think moving to linux would've been less painful, especially after six months of use.

many business will be migrating to vista over the next 18 months, considering the significant changes to the interface it wouldn't suprise me if, generally, migrating to linux was less traumatic for users in the medium and longer term.

Hours of training you really only need to do once

haha yeah once... a day. You obviously don't support pc users, and certainly not noob pc users. People ask the same questions even after telling/showing/writing doco on how to do things. I'd have a death wish if I wanted to teach everyone how to use Linux desktop, they have a hard enough time using Windows :)

Oh yeh, that's the other thing - comparing moving to Linux to moving to Vista!!#@!@#!@ Man it'd be totally worth it for businesses to change now; I can't think of a better time.

Preaching to the converted.

As soon as the jerks at Mozilla figure out they should feature-freeze Firefox and work on Thunderbird for an Outlook replacement, I'll be happy.

Pretty sure Thunderbird was just dropped by the Mozilla foundation...

Oh yeh, that's the other thing - comparing moving to Linux to moving to Vista!!#@!@#!@ Man it'd be totally worth it for businesses to change now; I can't think of a better time.

No matter which way you put it... there is a massive difference between going from any version of Windows to Linux.

Also, the company I work for would take on at least 5 new people in Brisbane per month, and at least 50 new people per month over all of Australia. Thats a lot of training.

Hours of training you really only need to do once, and then you never have to pay a Microsoft license fee again?

Maybe if one of two cases is true:
1) You never need to hire someone again.
2) Everybody in the world magically changed to linux at the exact same time.

One of the companies I worked for last year had a turn over rate of about 600 people per year. Just covering median Australian wages alone would have cost that business nearly 100k annually to train people up. That doesn't include the massive training infrastructure that they would have had to put into place, nor does it count the dip in productivity as people learned the new system.

Office situations are different because people are used to Microsoft's office suite, but if you're not doing heavy duty word processing there's little reason to stay with Windows (unless of course you're stuck with legacy apps on Windows).

It's got more to do with the interactions between different MS technologies that large business finds impressive.

So many apps now are web-based anyway and moving that way

Web-based applications are great, if you've already got them. Otherwise you have to make them yourself, modify free ones or buy off the shelf ones.

1: Assuming you actually design/engineer your software, making them yourself can be an expensive and time consuming process.

2: Chances are that getting a free web app solution isn't going to meet your entire specifications, as such, it's still got an expense.

3: You could have just kept your old software.

thin clients ftw.

Apparently Windows Server 2008 has a really hardcore terminal server that allows embedding of applications on remote computers. :)

many business will be migrating to vista over the next 18 months, considering the significant changes to the interface it wouldn't suprise me if, generally, migrating to linux was less traumatic for users in the medium and longer term.

Every place I've contracted through has said something like this "blah blah blah, upgrading to vista in the next N months, blah blah blah" and then they actually go out and do some systems testing with it. Now none of them are planning on upgrading to Vista for as long as possible.

No matter which way you put it... there is a massive difference between going from any version of Windows to Linux.

I must be missing someone, and certainly noone has explained it yet -

what are these massive fundamental differences is OS that you think every day workers are going to have problems with?

how about everything?

unless the email looks and behaves EXACTLY like outlook, i know our cs girls owuld be int rouble, no more meetings, no more attaching files

i havent seen office in linux, but unless its IDENTICAL in everyway to office, it would be massive dramas

starting up stuff like calcs, notepads

proprietry softare that we run here, thats windows based, would no longer work

we're a unix based IT company and we woudlnt even dare try and support users running linux, and why would we? it would be a massive headache and not worth the effort

Its not windows ?

Seriously tho. Many things work slightly differently or have different names.
And sure you can spend hours making it look and work the same, but its always just a little more complicated and a little more painful.

eg. default Fedora has the "task bar" at the top. A lot (?all?) the windows shortcuts don't work, the clock is in the top right, and it had virtual desktops.

Also network based centrally managed user management and desktop personalisation is more difficult.

And it is very easy to upset users, the smallest change can have them crying to their managers.

eg. default Fedora has the "task bar" at the top

Fedora? Get with the times ... Ubuntu is where it's at for usability. If you're quoting Fedora you are living about 2 years in the past.

A friend of mine recently lent her Ubuntu laptop to her flatmate who knows almost nothing about computers, and she had no problems browsing and checking her mail and doing internet-y stuff without help.

In Ubuntu all of those "Internet" and "Email" links work. USB sticks auto-mount like you'd expect in Windows. Heaps of stuff is highly automated to the point where I feel like a noob for using the distribution.

fark, while we are investigating fantasy solutions to virus's

lets all just run macs!?!?!?!

that would fix it!

(lolz)

Cant be assed quoting everyone!

Thanks for the tip on Trend Office Scan, sounds like a goer - just need to work out a place to buy it from...any takers?

Linux debate - The server is currently running Ubuntu 6.10. Knowing nothing about linux I think i did pretty well.....but after getting the RAID setup (f***ing headache++) i reset ubuntu and it f***ed up and lost the startup...not knowing how to fix it i just reinstalled and the raid stuffed up.....go figure. I just don't trust linux at all. I do a daily backup from a windows machine over network because i just don't want to have to deal with linux file-types when I only have one linux machine. Yes I realise i can make it do windows type files and s***...but when I have to do 6 hours chargable accounting work ontop of all the IT s*** at work, the last thing i want to do when I get home is research Linux s***.
Not to mention alot of the accounting software we use has a windows file structure, meaning when i have to update the s*** (every 2 months) I have to copy everything to a windows machine and update it and s*** and then copy it back. (4-5 hours each way to copy, so have to go to work and copy it back before the next day). Yes yes i know theres easier ways, but I really don't have time to stay back 2-3 hours a day and work out how to use Wine and potentially f*** up the server.
MOving back to windows xp in a week or two. f*** linux!

Oh and to whoever made the "just google it" comment - I wanted opinions of people who have had first hand experience, rather than a bunch of "reviews" from god knows who most probably getting paid to say this virus scanner is teh win.

lets all just run macs!?!?!?!

Have you seen how fast Macs are selling at the moment? They're up like 30% or something ridiculous over last year.

They're still miles behind windows, obviously, but thanks to the ipod plus the pretty ibook, more and more people are looking at them - including hardcore nerds that previously would have laughed in your face if you'd even said the word "Macintosh"

last edited by trog at 17:57:30 21/Aug/07

Have you seen how fast Macs are selling at the moment? They're up like 30% or something ridiculous over last year.

So why is it that most businesses (like every day business, not graphic design or journalism for example) still continue to run windows based networks? Is it to do with the systems they use to run the network or is it just that a mac switch would require more than just desktop replacement? - or something! :P

I can't see why macs seem so dear, at least the notebooks

our work uses AVG free, well it's more like we don't use anything, and I downloaded AVG free myself...

AVG free can only be used for free in a non-corporate environment! Thus I need to buy it! :)

So why is it that most businesses (like every day business, not graphic design or journalism for example) still continue to run windows based networks? Is it to do with the systems they use to run the network or is it just that a mac switch would require more than just desktop replacement? - or something! :P

It has all of the costs associated with training and changing your infrastructure to handle all of the s*** you did with Microsoft's productivity suites but, unlike switching to linux, you have to purchase Mac hardware and a Mac OS.

Also, many companies have legacy applications that are un-fun to get to run on anything else but windows machines.

Also, many companies have legacy applications that are un-fun to get to run on anything else but windows machines.

Some of them are un-fun to get to run even on windows.
Some require ie6 others require ie7, and we have one that requires Firefox...

Some of them are un-fun to get to run even on windows.

Assuming that the people who built and then maintained those systems have done their job for the last N years, you should have a healthy list of documentation to help you move it into a modern(ish) windows environment.

Sure, it's not not "I've got no pants on" kind of fun", but it's a lot less of a drag than supporting a legacy windows application on nix.

http://pykus.com/images/Happy_Venn.png

documentation

hahaha
hahhahahahahah

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

hahaha
hahhahahahahah

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Speaks volumes for the quality of your operation spook.

sorry, no time for documentation, people need their bills

if developers here are documenting their work, it means they have time to spare, time that should be spent doing more production work

besides, if you cant look at code and work out whats going on, u probably shoulnt be here anyway

Assuming that the people who built and then maintained those systems have done their job for the last N years, you should have a healthy list of documentation to help you move it into a modern(ish) windows environment.

There's so many legacy apps out there - like, even DOS apps, s*** written in the most arcane languages that people dont have source for and can't covert, etc though

that's where virtulisation comes in, you dont have to worry that the mission critical vb3 app only runs on nt4 - just virtulise it now before the hardware dies.

if the tricky things are just virtual machines your desktop can be anything you want.

sorry, no time for documentation, people need their bills

if developers here are documenting their work, it means they have time to spare, time that should be spent doing more production work

besides, if you cant look at code and work out whats going on, u probably shoulnt be here anyway

That's a really good definition of poor, across the board, project management.

There's so many legacy apps out there - like, even DOS apps, s*** written in the most arcane languages that people dont have source for and can't covert, etc though

Yes, and the cost of re-creating those applications is horrendous and large reason for many organizations hesitation on changing operating systems.

that's where virtulisation comes in, you dont have to worry that the mission critical vb3 app only runs on nt4 - just virtulise it now before the hardware dies.

Thank god someone came up with a valid opposing point.

That's a really good definition of poor, across the board, project management.

matey, you got no idea of our time frames eh?

of course documentation is important, but you dont sacrifice jobs for it

our new BA's/project managers (especially ones that come from government) always struggle with getting their heads around how little time we have to setup projects, and get them in, and out the door

same with developers that come from larger project land. we dont have no time for big well laid out planned projects, we gotta get the job done quick as and right as can be managed and move onto the next project;

legal deadlines (group certs for example) dont wait for documentation.

Maybe you should hire more staff to cover the workload. Seriously, the amount of times QM have screwed us around I'm surprised we still use them.

who pays for the extra staff, just out of interest?

yor government hey Joanna?

Jim: I don't care, let them charge more, just get the job done correctly, thanks!

Spook: No, not government, just a client of QM Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne.

so lucky!

if you ever deal with me, say hi!

also, the qm way is as much work with as few staff and equipment as possible (except in nsw where its the opposite)

our new BA's/project managers (especially ones that come from government) always struggle with getting their heads around how little time we have to setup projects, and get them in, and out the door

same with developers that come from larger project land. we dont have no time for big well laid out planned projects, we gotta get the job done quick as and right as can be managed and move onto the next project;

That's right, keep justifying s*** practices.

if only we could get someone as smart as you to work for us, you could turn us around and we'd stop doing it wrong!

I think spook realises that there are better ways to do things in a perfect world. but in his reality ( QM ) it's not feasible due to the time/money limitations put on the staff.

I bet the person reviewing his performance doesn't care about how well documented spook's code is ...

besides spook codes in Perl. Shaping your code into cute animals like dolphins and camels is way more important than documentation. He's not allowed to do that either.

everyone who can run perl, RUN THIS CODE NOW

#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

use strict;

                                           $_='ev

                                       al("seek\040D

           ATA,0,                  0;");foreach(1..2)

       {;}my               @camel1hump;my$camel;

  my$Camel  ;while(             ){$_=sprintf("%-6

9s",$_);my@dromedary           1=split(//);if(defined($

_=)){@camel1hum        p=split(//);}while(@dromeda

 ry1){my$camel1hump=0      ;my$CAMEL=3;if(defined($_=shif

        t(@dromedary1    ))&&/\S/){$camel1hump+=1<<$CAMEL;}

       $CAMEL--;if(d   efined($_=shift(@dromedary1))&&/\S/){

      $camel1hump+=1  <<$CAMEL;}$CAMEL--;if(defined($_=shift(

     @camel1hump))&&/\S/){$camel1hump+=1<<$CAMEL;}$CAMEL--;if(

     defined($_=shift(@camel1hump))&&/\S/){$camel1hump+=1<<$CAME

     L;;}$camel.=(split(//,"\040..m`{/J\047\134}L^7FX"))[$camel1h

      ump];}$camel.="\n";}@camel1hump=split(/\n/,$camel);foreach(@

      camel1hump){chomp;$Camel=$_;tr/LJF7\173\175`\047/\061\062\063

      45678/;tr/12345678/JL7F\175\173\047`/;$_=reverse;print"$_\040

       $Camel\n";}foreach(@camel1hump){chomp;$Camel=$_;y/LJF7\173\17

        5`\047/12345678/;tr/12345678/JL7F\175\173\047`/;$_=reverse;p

         rint"\040$_$Camel\n";}#japh-Erudil';;s;\s*;;g;;eval;   eval

           ("seek\040DATA,0,0;");undef$/;$_=;s$\s*$$g;(   );;s

             ;^.*_;;;map{eval"print\"$_\"";}/.{4}/g; __DATA__   \124

               \1   50\145\040\165\163\145\040\157\1 46\040\1  41\0

                    40\143\141  \155\145\1 54\040\1   51\155\  141

                    \147\145\0  40\151\156 \040\141    \163\16 3\

                     157\143\   151\141\16  4\151\1     57\156

                     \040\167  \151\164\1   50\040\      120\1

                     45\162\   154\040\15    1\163\      040\14

                     1\040\1   64\162\1      41\144       \145\

                     155\14    1\162\       153\04        0\157

                      \146\     040\11     7\047\         122\1

                      45\15      1\154\1  54\171          \040

                      \046\         012\101\16            3\16

                      3\15           7\143\15             1\14

                      1\16            4\145\163           \054

                     \040            \111\156\14         3\056

                    \040\         125\163\145\14         4\040\

                    167\1        51\164\1  50\0         40\160\

                  145\162                              \155\151

                \163\163                                \151\1

              57\156\056

last edited by Spook at 08:58:19 23/Aug/07

Documentation, proper requirements analysis and rigorous testing don't really cost additional money or time. Most of the time an operation that is not doing these things properly will actually benefit by process change to do so. Following development disciplines is also guaranteed to deliver higher client satisfaction.

The problem is that the real cost of more lax processes is forward-loaded - you pay the penalty weeks or months in the future. Often the time eventually spent on fixes and support is buried into ambiguous overheads and never assigned to the original job.

Rigid deadlines aren't an excuse either Spooker :( Most deadlines are not a surprise (financial year comes up every year like clockwork!) and should be properly planned for. Nine times out of ten this is not the developer's fault.

I've worked in a smaller operation for years now and I know the pressures to 'get it out'. Worse, once you become familiar with your problem space and uber productive, this gets worse not better!

That's right, keep justifying s*** practices.

Dude, if you're working for a company that gives you the time and freedom to code "properly", you should f***ing relish it, because I can guarantee you they're pretty few and far between.

When you're working for unreasonable clients that just NEED IT DONE NOW OMGZ, there's often no time and no resources to do it "properly"; you just have to do it and hope you're doing it just well enough that when you need to maintain it, it doesn't result in someone going postal and shooting up the office because of deadly spaghetti code of death.

Documentation, proper requirements analysis and rigorous testing don't really cost additional money or time.

How do you figure

When you're working for unreasonable clients that just NEED IT DONE NOW OMGZ, there's often no time and no resources to do it "properly"; you just have to do it and hope you're doing it just well enough that when you need to maintain it, it doesn't result in someone going postal and shooting up the office because of deadly spaghetti code of death.

No doubt about it trog - OMGZ I NEED IT NOW is a problem. But if that is the dev's day to day experience then something isn't quite right. Is the OMGZ generated by a bug in the software - why did it happen?

Nobody else in business puts up with OMGZ. If I call the mechanic with an OMGZ he doesn't give a s***, he'll fit in my job when he can. Tried to get a plumber in a hurry?

I'm starting a new government contract in the next couple weeks. One of the things they asked me is that they have a few OMGZ FRIDAY AFTERNOON NEED IT NOW clients, and this is causing them some grief. Would I be willing to say no to such people?

f*** yes :)

How do you figure

I assplained it troggles? It costs you time and money NOW, but saves you pain later.

Obviously if you produce an encyclopedia of your every move you won't get it back, but simple s*** like commenting check-ins properly is absolutely negligible. How hard is it to type "Changed column width at Client XXX request" at the check-in dialog?

What about taking a minute to chuck in a proper function descriptor. You just spent an hour writing the f***ing thing after all?

I can't count the number of times I have jumped into a problem because I was in a hurry and realised a day or so later that I had done something fundamentally shortsighted along the way. What's my choice then - spaghetti it up to finish, or restart. If I'd taken the hour or two to spec my object model and interfaces - even just scribbles on paper - how much time would I have saved myself, and the poor bastard who has to maintain it in five years time?

last edited by Hogfather at 09:38:15 23/Aug/07

Oh, I read your thing the wrong way round, sorry, I thought you were saying the cost wasn't exposed until the end

I think spook realises that there are better ways to do things in a perfect world. but in his reality ( QM ) it's not feasible due to the time/money limitations put on the staff.

Paul, my respect for you keeps falling and falling.

but on the flipside my respect for stinky is on the rise!

OMGZ I NEED IT NOW is a problem

Exactly and you should emphasis this to the client that, yeah we'll do it but we won't guarantee that it will work 100% and any _additional_ costs for bug fixes etc WILL BE BILLED at this rate [insert huge hourly costs] here.

You then will find that most of the time they suddenly don't actually need that feature "X" that they must absolutely had to have otherwise world will fall down.

In absence of a proper documentations, even putting specs and requirements on the paper will ensure the deliverables are correct. Seriously, I've been burned so many times before to know that I must get their signatures on the agreed spec. and requirements. Then you'll get to have a life after work. Plus it really covers your arse in case somethings outside of signed agreement come up.

But that's just me.


last edited by Opec at 11:12:51 23/Aug/07

Exactly and you should emphasis this to the client that, yeah we'll do it but we won't guarantee that it will work 100% and any _additional_ costs for bug fixes etc WILL BE BILLED at this rate [insert huge hourly costs] here.

"You're just being negative/obstructionary"

In absence of a proper documentations, even putting specs and requirements on the paper will ensure the deliverables are correct.

we dont really get specs for most jobs either (although its getting better since we now have a team of ba/pms)

usually its a vague description "make it look like this" and then a fax of a dodgy word doc setup

I assume that spook is in the same position we are - clients generally don't want to spend four hundred billion hours writing detailed specifications for simple tasks

yer business analysts are overrated and project managers are over paid

usually its a vague description "make it look like this" and then a fax of a dodgy word doc setup

Well that's a doco of some sort. All you really need is their signature on it saying to the words to the effect of "Yes, this is exactly what we want. We acknowledged any alterations will be considered extra costs at this rate [insert rate] - signed client" Then file it, and if they come back and go hey man this screen sucks you can just show them the signed sig and proceed to explain the cost structure they can expect :)

Look I'm not saying this works for everyone, it works for me/us. Any projects that we do without proper agreements (even a simple business requirements signed off, basic spec and deliverables etc) ended up with us fixing stuff out of our own expenses _nearly_ 99% of the times. Where as with proper project setup, it's the opposite, 99% of the time the clients are very happy with what they get.

YMMV

man people who don't document code should all be stabbed repeatedly till they learn.

Except then they 'learn' and write comments like "Do Stuff..." or "Update state"...RARGGHH!

I think spook realises that there are better ways to do things in a perfect world. but in his reality ( QM ) it's not feasible due to the time/money limitations put on the staff.



Paul, my respect for you keeps falling and falling.

woooah! take a step back dude.

I'm not dissing you or what you're saying. I agree 100% that documentation is key to a successful project, regardless of the discipline ( I'm sure people don't dig undercity tunnels without documentation ). Lack of documentation is probably one of the main reasons so many IT projects fail.

I was just empathizing with spook's situation. If his management does not support his wish to document his work, then chances are he'll have issues acheiving whatever KPIs they judge his work with. Unless he has the power to adjust his management's directives, He needs to work inside of them.

It's all well and good for us to berate spook for not following best practise, but you have to understand the position he is in.

I know Adam that you have a solid degree behind you with extremely high marks, and that degree is backed up by a number of years of experience in the IT industry ( hell I was next to you for a bunch of them ) both before and since your degree. There's nothing you've said in this thread that isn't correct or true, and I'm not disagreeing with what you've said.

but on the flipside my respect for stinky is on the rise!

f*** you, you sorry excuse for a c***muscle.

my respect for you paul is falling, falling AND falling now that I've seen you make the above post to adam

signed,
jason

woooah! take a step back dude.

It's too late, you can't unsay it

stay out of this david

me david, or trog david?

typo, out of interest, where do you work

I'm a David too!

I thought typo works for Boeing (as in the maker of flying chuck of metal - even if it's on on a treadmill)?

if the david's stayed out of this thread, none of this would have happened ... f***ing davids.

What about a bird on a treadmill ?

I thought typo works for Boeing (as in the maker of flying chuck of metal - even if it's on on a treadmill)?

Heh are they still using ADA? I remember when I was at UQ early on, it was a big deal to teach people ADA because "that's what Boeing used, and if you want to work for Boeing you should learn ADA"

^^ Dunno, but ADA was(is) very popular with real-time systems like avianics and weapons control etc. So wouldn't be surprised they still maintained the ADA coders for older planes etc.

Boeing has documentation that the plane does indeed take off.

^ I will ask my friends at Boeing about that, I simply don't believe you!

lol all this stuff about the client paying more for being f***tards is straight outta uni lectures and you're kidding yourself if you think it happens in the real world

The reality is the client never even finds out they were a f***tard because the sales people who deal with them are too busy sucking up to them and making promises.

last edited by Idol at 21:21:05 23/Aug/07

just use a mail gateway and use multiple scanners on all mail before its forwarded into the network

How come you posted that response superform

multiple scanners? come on that's so 90's. A single good scanner from Trend, Symantec, etc sitting on the border will be fine.

i skipped the derail

mail isn't the only source of a virus though, and the original post didn't say anything about mail scanning other than saying a spam filter would be an added benefit

i just think for real corporate protection its more about network setup then praying that your out of the box scanner that u spam on every machine will work.

just use a mail gateway and use multiple scanners on all mail before its forwarded into the network

Ok, what about people that bring in the USB, floppy disks (LOL people still use these??!) sticks with doco on it which has virus?

Sad as it may be, virus scanner and spyware scanner should be part of any sound corporate protection strategy, yes along with what you said "proper" network setup. There is no magic silver bullet as much as I/we wish there were.

Proper network setup will not prevent users machine from become infected - believe me, user's find a way to f*** their machine up somehow. Sometimes it amazes me how inventive some users can be when it comes to f***ing up their machine.

All you can really do is install enough measures that will prevent 99% of the cases and make administration of all of these machines easier so you too can get to have a life after work.

/end rant

last edited by Opec at 15:30:17 24/Aug/07

i just think for real corporate protection its more about network setup then praying that your out of the box scanner that u spam on every machine will work.

I dunno, if I had to choose I'd pick the 'out of the box scanner on every machine' over soley doing network scanning. this is because the machine is where the virus has the effect, and the network isn't by any means the only place they can come from.

I think by network protection he would mean including some form of enterprise virus scanner that would reside on every machine as well as email, etc etc.

well you know what think did don't you

He thought he fell out of bed so he got up to take a look!

well i just think preventing/defeating network intrusions on a corporate level needs to be handled in a more robust way then just deploying anti virus onto a users system and crossing your fingers.. as people who are familiar with the stupidity of users you should be more aware of what is needed to shield the network from said stupidity.. including isolating users machines from the server.. using imaging on client terminals, fire walling all connections and vpn external connections to the network.. isolate the gateway and keep sensitive data on a secure server.. sure you cant stop some tool bringing in a usb drive loaded with viruses.. but you should be able to handle it without it affecting the network (too much)..

thats why on the critical sections where intrusions are likely to occur.. ie the mail server.. you can deploy multiple virus scanners to handle it.. and only forward clean mail into the network.. if you have stupid users in your corporate environ then you need to secure the network from the damage these tools can do

it all sounds complicated.. but its actually quite easy and is just a matter of proper planning

and documentation

it doesn't sound complicated at all - but it does sound a lot better than "just use a mail gateway and use multiple scanners on all mail before its forwarded into the network" as a response to the original question, even if it's not what was asked

well it is what was asked..

in my solution i would only use virus scanners in the mail server and would have multiple scanners for the greatest chance of catching stuff

this is y my answer was more basic to begin with

but like i said.. network protection is more complex then trying to protect the local machine with a single anti virus product.. which in a corporate environ is dumb

I thought he asked if anyone knew a good virus scanner. And I just don't see how telling him just to scan his incoming email only, is an answer - or even a solution at all. A couple of us already responded to that idea with at least one good reason why it's not a very good solution, but you just keep saying it :)

multiple scanners in the enterprise is dumb.

no my reply was that he should use multiple virus scanners and put them onto his mail server as in conjunction with securing the network this would offer the best protection.. i'm not trying to say which virus checker is best.. cause there is no best scanner.. the best thing to do is use multiple scanners from different companies to maximize the chance of catching new viruses

heh