I saw this on OCAU and was pretty moved by it. We see so many crashes in V8's, Indy, Drag Racing, Rally and F1 where they all walk away. This is a video compilation of some of the deaths in F1 over the years. It ends with footage of Aryton Senna sitting motionless, head leaning back, in the Williams F1 car that took his life (a whole other story about the car....).

*** Warning : There are some pretty graphic and disturbing footage in this ***


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORs-8GT6SMU&search=f1%20perished%20heroes

dear god, I could hardly watch some of that...very sad

r.i.p all those mentioned in the video

That's what the sport was like until recently. It's been sanitised in the name of safety which isn't a bad thing but the racing in the 60s and 70s was more exciting but much more dangerous. A driver now doesn't expect to die, but those guys knew what they were getting into....

^ yeah because when you're doing 260kph down a straight and something f***s up, hitting the wall won't kill you these days *rolleyes*

holy s*** at guy running across track and getting hit. he went flying.

That's a pretty powerful piece

I had one of those pics in my high school timetable an only now just remembered an realised what the pic really meant..
Some of those guys died f***ing horribly all in the name of the sport they loved.

Kinda humbling to think that these guys deaths contributed to sooo much of the saftey net we now get to drive around in
(cept for rice & rotary drivers)

Damn, that track offical got shredded... that made me feel kinda ill watching him rip apart spinning in the air :/

worst one was that track official trying to turn over the car that was practically a fireball. couldnt do anything to save the guy.

^ yeah because when you're doing 260kph down a straight and something f***s up, hitting the wall won't kill you these days *rolleyes*

How many F1 drivers have died recently? Wouldn't the answer lend itself to the expectation that if you get into a modern F1 car you shouldn't expect to die if you can drive the thing properly?

The monocoque of these cars protects the drive much better than it did even 10-15 years ago.

that track marshall that couldnt roll the chasis back over was actually another driver whos car retired and ran over to help. also the poor marshall that got clipped trying to get across the road, not only died but the driver who clipped him copped the fire extuinguisher in the head, died and crash 200m down the road into another wall.

the statement about the not dying thing hittin a wall agt 260, schumacher hit tamburello corner (the corner senna died on) only a few years later at the same 300+ speed and survived with minor injuries. sennas death invoked a redesign in f1 technology for all parts apart from the driver cone to break away as safe as possible

hmmm intense.

schumacher hit tamburello corner (the corner senna died on) only a few years later at the same 300+ speed and survived with minor injuries

Yeah I've heard Schumacher's remarkable record being credited partially to modern safety. The fastest drivers are always the ones that push their cars closest to the limit and sometimes over it. In the past drivers with that sort of speed have often had career or life ending crashes. Schumacher on the other hand has had many massive crashes at high speed and survived to continue his domination of the sport thanks to the current safety of the cars.

schumacher hit tamburello corner (the corner senna died on) only a few years later at the same 300+ speed and survived with minor injuries

now what loki?

Still you hit anything fast enough and stop withing a certain distance quickly enough you are going to die regardless of how awesome the driver cabin bit is.

The chances are far far less these days but if your steering managed to completely f*** out and send you at the nearest solid object theres a good chance you may not survive.

Im not real sure on how they make the s*** that surrounds the track. The indy at the GC have those big concrete barriers that give when you hit them (rick kelly rammed some dude into it a while back in v8s, cant remember the specific year/details exactly). However after seeing Monaco it appears to have a lot of very solid stuff around the track that would stop you pretty damn hard and fast if you ran into it.

However after seeing Monaco it appears to have a lot of very solid stuff around the track that would stop you pretty damn hard and fast if you ran into it.

That's why:
A) They have deformable structures around the car so energy is absorbed by them, not the driver.
B) Tyre barriers are put up wherever a car is likely to hit at speed, even Armco and as you say temporary concrete barriers are designed to absorb energy.
C) New circuits are designed with more paved runoff (allows a car to slow more without digging into a gravel trap or running straight into something solid)
D) The FIA stick chicanes everywhere in fast straights so cars no longer arrive at slow corners at pace. (It destroys passing zones hence the sanitisation of the sport but stops drivers from dying.)

I do agree with that, but Monaco still looked crazy scary to me :) If I was riding as passenger I would be packing it hardcore!

Still if you managed to hit somewhere they thought super unlikely to hit at speed the deformable s*** around the car I doubt is enough to keep you alive.


I would be very interested to know what kinda of forces those cars could hit a solid object at whilst still providing survivable conditions for the driver. If you know of such info please indulge me :)

Sorry no idea, but I'm sure it would depend on the size, shape and weight of the object as well as how much the object moves and the angle the car hits at. So the answer wouldn't be simple anyway. :)

The other factor about Monaco is that it's very tight and relatively low speed compared to every other F1 track. The only really fast section is through the tunnel (where Button got it very wrong a few years ago in the lead up to the race and had to sit the rest of the weekend out) so the chances of hitting anywhere else with a lot of force is unlikely.

that was pretty emotional, especially the roger williamson bit :(

Wiki on David Purley - bit of a champion

179.8 g.... wow!

typically anything about 30g is likely to be fatal

I've heard of hits over 30g on ovals but 179.8 g on a road course is unbelievable.

s*** man, some of those were disturbing... a lot more than that piece of s*** Omen movie...

What people don't realise about 'that particular' terrible footage is that the marshall was carrying a fire hydrant.
At that speed, the weight of it was enough to crush straight through everything in its way - we'll just leave it to say that the hydrant ended up in the engine bay/intake and the driver was killed (that might have actually been him they showed on the stretcher, I'm not sure).

I've been involved in three events where people have been killed. One a historics meeting (I won't say where), where a similar thing happened with a marshall. However, from the distance I saw it, it didn't appear as graphic. The others were drivers (Greg Hansord, at Phillip Island (accident at southern loop), and another recently at Wakefield which was actually from Carbon Monoxide poisoning).

One category for which the riders will always be praised for their safety is bikes, of any sort. In no other category have I ever seen the entire field of bikes come to a stop (on the back straight at Calder) when a rider has come off, when they were not even required to do so based on the flags. A few months ago we had a serious accident at another meeting - the starter/flag marshall just froze, completely. We had to step in and override him to call for red flags and an ambulance.

But on that particular footage - despite what I've seen over the years, I seriously felt sick, and it almost makes me feel like I no longer want to be involved in the sport for things like that happening. Motor racing is dangerous, there's no denying it.

For me Lorenzo Bandini's accident was one that always stood out in my mind. He didn't actually die in the accident. He was in the overturned car for something like 5 minutes while it was on fire. He died a few days later due to the burns he had suffered to his whole body. I remember watching a doco on it back in the 80's maybe early 90's. Always one which stuck in my mind.

awesome vid
very intesrseting;

here is the forum i got the vid from (OCAU). There more chatter/vids there.



http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=479401


It really is sad to see the passing of legends or not in tragic circumstances. People become desensitised to it, but image the passing of a rossi or a shumacher in todays world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2vjUdsYXZo



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tMJ8U-2ZMU&search=F1%20crash

Respect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCFXlON_qw&search=F1%20crash



ayrton senna was truly a great person, who also drove cars for a living

rip, terrible

bit of a shame.


Death is upon us all, one day it will be you and me..

lol.
Yeah rubba pretty much summed it up.

now what loki?

Would you like to volunteer yourself in an F1 car to do 300kph with your foot welded to the firewall hitting an indy-wall dead-straight on and test this theory?
I'll place my money on the wall owning your ass.

I have no doubt the sport is safer and technology has made it somewhat safer.
My point was merely that saying 'people don't expect to die' is pretty ludicrous as nobody "expects to die" unless you're doing something that is suicidal or nigh on it.

The others were drivers (Greg Hansord, at Phillip Island (accident at southern loop), and another recently at Wakefield which was actually from Carbon Monoxide poisoning).

my dad has been with greg hansford's sister for nearly 19 years. i was watching the tv one sunday arvo back in 95 and saw the news flash of greg's death. dad and lani were up the coast at the time and as soon as i saw the photo on the screen i had the sickest feeling in my stomach and ran to the phone to call them. my grandmother answered the phone and i nearly screamed at her to put dad or lani on the phone and she said they'd left 5 minutes ago because of the news. it was really sad to see how his sons and other family dealt with it. :(

Hey Raven, slightly off topic, but what's with racetime ceasing to put up v8s results towards the end of the year, then they start reappearing again this year? Glad to see they are back again - it's a lot easier to get them from you guys in to excel and manipulate them than trying to deal with the natsoft ones.

anyone know who the name of that first song? I know the second is my immortal by evanescence.

Would you like to volunteer yourself in an F1 car to do 300kph with your foot welded to the firewall hitting an indy-wall dead-straight on and test this theory?
I'll place my money on the wall owning your ass.

The Indy walls on the high speed oval part have the SAFER barrier so it's going to hurt like a mofo and do some serious damage, but probably not kill you.

I have no doubt the sport is safer and technology has made it somewhat safer.
My point was merely that saying 'people don't expect to die' is pretty ludicrous as nobody "expects to die" unless you're doing something that is suicidal or nigh on it.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make! A few decades ago (i.e. the time most of these clips are from) the driver mortality rate was so high that competing in F1 was close to suicidal and these guys knew it.

arton senna and the guy who also died in the same race (can't remember his name sorry) were the first to die in i believe 10 or 12 years. thankfully nobody has died since.

thats really amazing when you think about it, despite the fact cars aren't quite as fast as they were late 70s early 80s.

the guys racing the 50s and 60s cars were totally and utterly nuts.

Roland Ratzenberger died in qualifying and I think Barrichello may also have had a massive shunt at some stage that weekend.

what's with racetime ceasing to put up v8s results towards the end of the year, then they start reappearing again this year?

Uhm no idea. I know that the Bathurst results and a few others had errors, though I'm sure they would have been posted eventually. I think Phillip Island fell on the same weekend as Maryborough, and Maryborough took precedence, so maybe Stephen just forgot (or didn't bother).

Basically, AVESCO have been deliberately removing data for the sole reason to stop us processing the results (we still get far more hits than Natsoft and AVESCO combined), and legally they can't stop us since we value-add to the dada by providing heaps of info they don't.

Frankly, I'm no longer interested in this aspect of motor racing - I stopped developing MR-SCATS5 when I got my new job, and Stephen now has another job - you'll probably notice there's been not much posted on RaceNews this week either. I was only developing it because I knew I could do a far better job than virtually every other peice of software out there (TimeGear, which is used for Indy and ChampCar, is well... not great... Orbits, which AMB are pushing for Australia since there's no money in it over here is nowhere near up to the level of stuff we do... and Natsoft... *laughs*)

The Indy walls on the high speed oval part have the SAFER barrier so it's going to hurt like a mofo and do some serious damage, but probably not kill you.

The first 3 months or so using SAFER were very frightening - it definately had an ironic name. Basically, the very early versions had some serious problems - and the first dozen or so people to hit them ended up with quite serious spine and kneck injuries. Fortunately what's being used now is much safer.

arton senna and the guy who also died in the same race (can't remember his name sorry) were the first to die in i believe 10 or 12 years. thankfully nobody has died since.

Roland Ratzenburger was killed on the Saturday in practice when his front wing collapsed. This allowed him to virtually glide over the sandtrap, rather than digging in as they were designed. The impact with the concrete barrier broke his kneck, which isn't actually what caused his death, rather, the asphyxiation caused by it was what did.

and the first dozen or so people to hit them ended up with quite serious spine and kneck injuries

Was that from the cars digging into the wall, I seem to remember something about that. Then again, IRL cars have a tendency to slide backwards into walls with their not so colapsible gear box first causing back injuries.

Roland Ratzenburger was killed on the Saturday in practice when his front wing collapsed. This allowed him to virtually glide over the sandtrap, rather than digging in as they were designed. The impact with the concrete barrier broke his kneck, which isn't actually what caused his death, rather, the asphyxiation caused by it was what did.

What about the theory that both he and Senna were both pulled out of the car clinically dead but kept 'alive' by CPR long enough so they could be pronounced at the hospital? I remember a conspiracy theory that if they were pronounced dead at the track the race would have to be cancelled under local laws so they initially weren't entirely upfront about how the drivers died.

Edit: P.S. Just in case it isn't clear I'm not disputing anything, just asking for your opinion.

last edited by Chakas at 23:12:39 08/Jun/06

I was watching the F1 when aryton senna died, I remember thinking that it was a bad crash but didnt look like it would cause a fatality. Maybe the cars looked deceptively slow going around that corner. Wasn't the corner changed soon after?

I think that was another case of a chicane being put into the straight before it to reduce approach speeds.

that one of the guy trying to pus h the car over is so f***ing sad...

That's why they get pay lots....

Woulda been better without emo music

It's funny because its not me.

It's funny

No, it isn't.

we're not meant to travel that fast. they knowingly take their life into their own hands everytime they start the engine.

so where's a vid of boxers who died in the ring?

The one at about 6.30 minutes had me thinking in the beginning how did he die? (looked like a crash at the start and his car didn't seem all that banged up, then it just went up like a fire ball). The driver trying to push the wreck over while it was on fire was moving too.

A small amount of comfort would be that those drivers who died did so doing something they loved, we should all be so lucky to go that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv0_aoFdylc

Twisted, that is one of the greatest F1 clips ever. I've seen it several times before but looking at it in the context of this thread makes me look at it in a new way. Look at the track and speed of the cars. What you don't see is tight corners and chicanes that slow the car down like in most modern tracks. That's the comprimise, losing the type action you see there vs track safety. It shows how excitment and danger go hand in hand in a sport like F1.

any direct links there fellaz ? as i collect F1 vids, im an avid f1 fan and" Yes" shad the corner was changed too stop that happening again not sure wether it was the next year or the one after that cause the italion government threatend to take williams to court and jail sir Frank so the FIA put the pressure on telling them that they will loose the Round .Senna was a s***load better driver that schumaker have people forgotten the early days when all schuey did was try and run damon hill off the track at every race the Nazi f*****(IMHO).Without traction control he would never have been multiple World Champ.Do you remember Mikka Hakkinens acco in adelaide that was a fuken beauty?

Gets off Soap Box..

Reverend you lie so much, in all the years I have never known you to watch F1. stop acting tough and admit you like watching Mens Gymnastics :) By the way dude I got the latest Pride sent to me today will bring it over on the weekend. Some top fights in it.

Speaking of Senna, it’s not a direct link but here’s a good collection of clips.

that is a kick ass clip that last one.

With modern aerodynamics, you're not going to see battles like the whole Prost/Senna racing. Problem is, Mosely is an absolulte idiot. Most of the accidents caused in that original clip were caused *because* downforce was all mechanical. A lot of those rollovers would not have happened with the downforce created by modern aerodynamics. His argument is utterly stupid that he wants less aero, more physical grip based on safety grounds - I mean seriously - if a wheel comes off, where the hell is the mechanical grip going to come from to slow the car? Good luck slowing a car when there's no downforce from 300km/h.

Unfortunately, that massive amount of aero downforce they're producing at 300km/h produces a huge wake. There's two ways to reduce this: Reduce the speed of the cars, or change the rules to disallow the car from disturbing the air following it.
If only they reduced the max revs, they could reduce a cars top speed while still keeping high cornering speeds. That would mean a massively reduced consortina effect (since the delta between their pre-braking speed and turn-in speed would be significantly lessened) - and better racing.

Sadly, Mosely has some other agenda - but with the utterly f***ed up things he keeps suggesting, I simply can't figure out what it is. His agenda clearly isn't safety though.

Twisted, that is one of the greatest F1 clips ever.

Yup, got it on DVD. It is in my opinion the greatest racing duel of all time. I've never seen anything like it except for maybe some of the Moto GP's.

I've seen it several times before but looking at it in the context of this thread makes me look at it in a new way.

Yeah, I thought it was very appropriate for this thread. I can't remember who said it about Giles Villeneuve when he died, so I couldn't make a direct quote, but it was something along the lines of: "This is the sadest day in F1, but a day we've all been expecting". That clip just showed the kind of driver he was and the limit he was willing to push the car to :)

You're right though, they have done a lot to slow the sport down. I was stunned when they banned turbos. But hind sight is 20x20 and it was definitely for the best :p

And yes, you are right. Mosely is a f***ing idiot. He is the worst link in the chain that has been destroying the sport for over a decade now. No one wants to see drivers die...but we want to see them over taking. Now days...over taking is generally an almost suicidal 'crash' through the inside of the corner locking up the breaks :(

Raven, I understand where you are coming from with the aerodynamic grip vs mechanical grip arguement. I agree that aerodynamic grip as used today produces too much dirty air for a car to follow close given it is fighting for aero grip itself. I also understand that mechanical grip is not ideal if a car becomes very unstable i.e. as you say losing a wheel. But again that comes down to a trade off between safety and racing.

Another option is to use more ground effects as that form of aerodynamic grip is less affected by the cars in front. However that's not without major draw backs either.

The point you make that I don't agree with is the reducing max revs. Aside from other issues I see with it, the most important point is that you would be reducing the length of braking zones. If the cars don't have to brake as much into a corner then it greatly reduces the ability of the following driver to brake later and still make the corner. The response to that could be to reduce braking efficiency but that's hardly going to be seen as a good idea in terms of safety.

last edited by Chakas at 14:55:56 09/Jun/06

Good one Dirtyape Maenz Now "Get back to Work Sucka". look forward too that one mate ))

But again that comes down to a trade off between safety and racing.

But this is the thing, it's NOT safer to have less aerodynamic grip! Aerodynamic grip is safer than even mechanical grip! If a car lost all four wheels, the aerodynamic grip would create so much force on the base of the monocoque that it would basically bring it to a stop in a similar distance than a sand-trap would - it's that powerful.

I don't really agree that shortening the braking length is less safe. They won't be approaching the corners any faster (because you've already reduced the top speed anyway by lowering the max revs), but granted, what you have raised is correct, they will brake later than currently (which could lead to problems) if the corner speeds remained the same.

On the other hand, that will mean less pressure on the brakes, so at circuits like Gilles Villenueve cars won't have failing/exploding brakes. Seeing that brake caliper fly outwards from the Toyota last year (it exploded), and Fisichella plow feet first into the tyre barrier because of a brake failure - now that wasn't nice.

You're right, they won't go reducing braking efficiency - though it would sure as hell save on costs. It takes FOUR WEEKS to make a pair of brake pads. They are literally oven fired in a kiln half a dozen times.

But this is entirely a topic which should be analysed in great depth to find the best solution. I'm sure dozens of better solutions can be found than what Mosely is proposing.

But this is the thing, it's NOT safer to have less aerodynamic grip! Aerodynamic grip is safer than even mechanical grip! If a car lost all four wheels, the aerodynamic grip would create so much force on the base of the monocoque that it would basically bring it to a stop in a similar distance than a sand-trap would - it's that powerful.

I don't really agree that shortening the braking length is less safe. They won't be approaching the corners any faster (because you've already reduced the top speed anyway by lowering the max revs), but granted, what you have raised is correct, they will brake later than currently (which could lead to problems) if the corner speeds remained the same.

I think we're argueing the same side here actually. I'm saying aerodynamic grip is safer but mechanical grip is better for racing and that's the trade off. I'm also not saying shortening braking zones is less safe either. Just that it makes it a hell of a lot harder to pass.


P.S. I know what you are getting at with the example, but how does a car lose all 4 wheels at speed without losing the wings etc LOL!

We're not entirely arguing the same thing. Mechanical grip isn't necessarily any better than aero grip is. HOWEVER, the EFFECTS caused by the use of aero are *detrimental* to racing - which I will agree on - and I also agree they need to be neutralised. The difference is, you're saying they should focus on mechanical grip to improve the racing; I'm saying they should focus on aero and improve the racing :) Your way is far easier :D

But I do understand the point you're trying to make.

I'm not say they should do anything in particular. I'm agreeing that they have gone away from mechanical grip towards aero grip (which has had an effect on the quality of the racing but increased safety).

Edit: Safer until there's a massive wing failure at speed which does happen every now and then.

last edited by Chakas at 15:56:35 09/Jun/06

relying on aero grip for safety is dangerous - what is the first part of the car to snap off on contact.. the wings.. byebye aero grip. f1 is great this year, and will get even better when they make it a bit more like A1 - big slicks and reduced aero disruption behind cars.. less aero = better racing.

also would you guys please come and race GT legends online, you dont know what youre missing out on.

last edited by scooby at 18:13:32 09/Jun/06