With all this discussion on Australian life, i figure ide pose this question to you.

Should John Howard apologize to the aboriginal community for events in the past? E.g. The Stolen Generation. This popped up the other day in my Study of Religion class and i had a mass debate with the teacher.

Personally i do not think he should have to. Its happened decades ago and it should not be put on his shoulders. Correct me if im wrong (and i most likely am), but has an American president apologized to the african american community for past crimes ? That does not make it right none the less. And should a Prime Minister (John Howard, or those proceeding him) apologize to Aboriginals, would that mean we would still have to supply some (some would say the majority) of them with houses, medical care etc etc ? Or would everything magically turn out for the best and they could stand on their own two feet?

Anyway what have you got to say

Yes he should, but if he did, legally everything would be f***ed. He can't apologise because it would be admitting fault and then things like land ownership and rights and welfare will all get taken to court with no good outcomes.

So, I am saying you have to understand why he doesn't;)

i had a mass debate with the teacher

That's a gift.

^^^^lol good call



no he shouldnt. they can get f***ed - people have been taking over other people people since time began.

the friggin abbos hadnt even invented the wheel yet ffs.

i thought he already did. or was it someone else?

last edited by ravn0s at 22:31:16 24/Feb/06

American president apologized

Lucky he was a yank or I'd nail him and his hymen to the wall for their poor English. You do understand that here in Australia, we spell things (mostly) the correct way and don't use "z" and use "s" ?

who gives a s***?

I think you mean zhit

yeah, they're lucky they weren't wiped out

Heh, dont hear many aztecs or mayans asking for land rights do you?

No.

american indians have casinos, i think the abos would be happy with a petrol station or two.

sometimes u have to do it tough for the greater good
"no"

why didn't you say goodbye when you left tonight?

Didn't we cover this topic in the flag burning thread a few weeks ago?

Do you think your great grandchildren should appologise to the fat ugly bitch you teased in school?

No. John Howard didn't commit any of the acts against the aborigines, so he has no reason or right to appologise. The very notion of making John Howard is so painfully racist it makes you want to punch ever hypocritical political correctness nut in the face. By making our white prime minister appologise to indigenous Australians, it further widens the rift between 'US' and 'THEM'.

Asking John Howard to appologise for something like the stolen generation is like me asking the first Aborigine PM to apologise to me for the Abo kid who stole my bike: stupid and racist.

I don't think Tasmania needs to appologise to anyone.

NO. Its like asking the current chancelor of Germany to apologise for Adolf and his mates. Different time in history, different circumstances, different people......build a bridge and get over it.

I find it sad when a current leader is forced by public opinion to apologise for something that happened before he or his children were even born. Sure they can learn from history's mistakes and try to prevent them from ever happening again but no one should be forced to say 'sorry' to appease some PC factions.

short answer NO. because first of all this was done in a different time and a different govenerment, i have to admit since i didnt grow up here i dont know much about it, but i THINK back then the goverenemt still took its orders from the Queen? ether way this all happend in a time When people didnt see anything wrong with what was happening, and now because of a change of attitude the goverenmt should be forced to appologise? Why?
if they want to the goverenemt to say sorry how about they first forfit any claims or law suites, cause thats the only reason i can see that they want an appology.

if the goverenment wasnt already helping the abbos id say they should help em, but is clear that the magority dont want to learn or work because we(the goverenment and Tax payers) are giving them money.

so i think people should STFU about it or the Government should change the laws so that it can say sorry with out having to give them a thing.

AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION


We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you
to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.

We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language
and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and
enterprise.

We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you,
which you have vandalised and destroyed.

We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from
slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.

We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed
you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and
starving during droughts.

We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace
that animal skins you used before.

We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and
building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.

We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the
instalments.

We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever you want to
travel.

We apologise for giving you each and every member of your family $100 and
free travel to attend an Aboriginal funeral.

We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have
to pay.

We apologise for giving you interest free loans.

We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and
diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.

We apologise for developing Ayres Rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to
you so that you get all the money.

We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters' wedding
$8,000 each daughter).

We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people,
which is $48,000 per Aboriginal man, woman and child.

We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare,
medical care, education, etc. to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.

We apologise for you having to approach the Aboriginal Affairs Department
to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the
"Uncle Toms" in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some
of you living in squalor and poverty.

We do apologise. We really do.

I think you mean zhit

ahjahahahha

lol. i want an apology from the aboriginals for their environmental vandalism which made parts of australia desert and wiped out a number of animal species.

Australian megafauna is a term used to describe a number of comparatively large animal species in Australia. Most of these species became extinct during the Pleistocene (20,000-50,000 years before present). It is hypothesized that the arrival of Aborigines (around 48-60 thousand years ago) and their hunting and landscape-changing use of fire may have contributed to the disappearance of the megafauna. However, drought conditions during peak glaciation (about 18,000 years ago) are a significantly confounding factor. Recent studies (Roberts et al. 2001) appear to rule this out as the primary cause of extinction, but there is also some dispute about these studies (Wroe et al. 2002). Australia has experienced numerous climatic oscillations over the last 2 million years, some more extreme than the most recent glacial period, and the fact that the megafauna survived all of these prior climatic oscillations also rule out climate change as a cause of extinction. Compare with the Holocene extinction event.

last edited by hast at 16:12:05 25/Feb/06

last edited by hast at 16:14:41 25/Feb/06

Haha, he actually said that the majority of the Australian community feel Howard should apoligze. I said he was full of s*** and now i dont feel so bad for saying it.

ooooo i want that apology too

btw, western civilisation is the most dominant yeah? did it ever occur to anyone there maybe a reason why? WE ARE ACTUALLY RIGHT. or righter than the others ... i can pick a heap of flaws in our societies, like fashion shows:

pic 1
pic 2

how can we expect respect with this allowed in our society? still, i'd rather this society than what i've heard/seen/read of others.

Well the problems is the half breeds or mixed ones which cause all the problems, they ones that come up to in the city and say, 'Hey Nigga, you got a smoke bro?'

i can pick a heap of flaws in our societies, like fashion shows

if you consider those images 'art' then they show western society is afluent and permissive enough for expression, and i'd say they're two of its best qualities:)

it also shows our society has a drug problem :(

don't get me wrong, i think that s*** is just f***ed up and a waste of resources - there needs to be a 'wtf' tax so the rest of the mentally ill can have decent living conditions

amen

The aboriginals should apologise for decades of alcohol abuse and doll bludging.

The aboriginals should apologise for decades of alcohol abuse and doll bludging.

I've met a lot of caucasians that fit that category too...

ain't nothing wrong with alcohol abuse.

I think there are a lot of peolpe who get hooked up in a semantic debate over the word 'sorry' in this argument. "sorry" can be used in 2 ways, eg.

"Sorry i ran up the back of your car, dude. My bad"

"I'm really sorry to hear about your mother's death, condolences"

one admits personal guilt and responsibility, the other is an expression of sympathy and acknowledgement. It's the second type the aboriginal community wants (according to an aboriginal friend from work), just a symbolic "some really terrible things happened to you guys back there, lets move forward and make sure things are better from here on in" kinda statement.

korbs, You can't demand someone to be sympathic to your situation. You can however appreciate it when someone offers their sympathy but to demand it is just, well, selfish

last edited by Kat at 16:31:34 26/Feb/06

Nobody is demanding sympathy kat. They are entitled to tell us "You are morally obligated to properly and formally acknowledge the suffering of our people cause by your ancestors."

He’s not saying sorry for what he has done directly he’s saying sorry for what the Australian government has done, for that reason an apology is perfectly acceptable and i believe that’s all the aboriginal community are actually asking for.

And why shouldn’t aboriginals be given their land back, or a fair share of it at least, we came here and destroyed there culture with cloned Americanised society that has no true culture of its own, only adapted copied and clueless views that are fed down throats by "THE MAN". I believe the first step to Australia having a true identity is to say sorry and let the aboriginals have what is theirs and for the rest of us to embraces it and be proud of it. To forgive what our ancestors have done and learn from it and at the same time pissing off that union jack from our flag and jamming the black red and yellow flag that our country was really built on.

But my views are not the views of the fat greasy alcoholic redneck s*** that sits at the pub each night having a few drinks before going home to his 3.5 family and watching the 7 o’clock news, and it never will be while we keep maintaining and supporting the s*** society we live in.

I’ll conclude this rant with the following….
what was done to the stolen generation was disgusting and if I can feel sorry for them, someone who wasn’t even born when it happened or new it happened until it was made public knowledge then why cant our government.

But politics be politics and that’s that.

How many governments are they going to demand an apology from for their ancestors suffering?

Over and over again they bring it up.... over and over again people are sick of it.

They want to be treated different and yet they point the finger when we do. You can't win really

jamming the black red and yellow flag that our country was really built on

That flag is so racist. I feel discriminated against and I demand an apology, or at least put a white dollar sign in the middle of it.

How many governments are they going to demand an apology from for their ancestors suffering?

Just one, since the elected governement represents (by proxy) the people of Australia.

Over and over again they bring it up.... over and over again people are sick of it.

Of course you're sick of hearing about it, it doesn't interest or affect you. Luckily, you are not representative of the whole population.

They want to be treated different and yet they point the finger when we do. You can't win really.

good point kat, i shall now respond with equal clarity and brevity:

KLJBSdflkjklsdfb//';;dlfsdf
aklsdh;asdfsdfsdf
NFIOEFFWEFN

A friend of mine once said that the aboriginal people should be given all of the interior of australia as their own domain from say about 1,000Km from the coastline (essentialy a nation inside a nation). We assisst them (if they wish) in setting up their own govt, monetary system, legal system etc and establish diplomatic ties with them all

- At this point I was looking a little shocked at my friend as his family are die hard Liberals

He then went on to say that after a short period (say 12 months) we then break off diplomatic ties, declare war on them and wipe em out completely leaving no survivors as they did in Tasmania

Yes he should, but if he did, legally everything would be f***ed. He can't apologise because it would be admitting fault and then things like land ownership and rights and welfare will all get taken to court with no good outcomes.

All he has to figure out how to do is to make a blameless apology, like we use at Apple.

Example: I'm sorry your expectations were not met at this time.

Doesn't mean bubkis, but still sounds like you're apologising.

Just one, since the elected governement represents (by proxy) the people of Australia.

As far as I am aware past governments HAVE. Keating did and so did another government. Does every single government need to apologise?

Can't find the details of this but I recall the same issue coming up in similar thread (different forum) and someone gave evidence that previous governments have

As far as I am aware...

Sorry kat, but any statement coming form you, prefaced with those 6 words doesn't carry much credibility.

If you can provide a credible source to back this up, then i would be most interested.

Why? It's in the past, get over it. Hell, who can even name anyone affected by it, let alone responsible for it who's still around? I certainly wasn't, and so it has nothing to do with me.

And of couse, they're going to expect 'apology' = $$$, which is just not how things work.
Move on, get over it, and get on with your lives bloody whingers. Nothing we do can change what happened in the past, so lets just stop hearing about it constantly.

Basically, I agree with Astro's post.

I don't think an apology would mean much now - largely because I don't think it would be sincere. I agree that the way they were treated BEFORE we started handing them cheap housing et al is abominable and those at fault should be ashamed - but those at fault are dead. The anger that Aboriginal people feel as a race is understandable, but it wasn't done to them personally and it wasn't done by us.

Then again... there is that quote about paying for the sins of our fathers or something...

Bottom line of it is, someone's going to be unhappy no matter which way this turns out. It sucks that their race will never be as it was before white interference, but there's nothing that can be done to change that now. I mean, you don't see descendants of ancient Britons demanding that descendants of ancient Romans give them their land back.

the friggin abbos hadnt even invented the wheel yet ffs.

Read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond.

I mean, you don't see descendants of ancient Britons demanding that descendants of ancient Romans give them their land back.

that probably has something to do with the fact that there are no orginal britons alive. most people in briton can trace there hertitage to somewhere else in europe

last edited by PornoPete at 08:51:24 27/Feb/06

*edit* psycho for the record the german government has apologised for the holocaust

p.s. was kat born this stupid or did she work at it?

last edited by PornoPete at 16:59:57 27/Feb/06

omg its stu

He can and should apologize. They can easily pass regulation to prevent any legal ramifications. John Howard chooses not to becuase he has always been trying to appeal to the right wing of politics and is more and more aligning himself with the Pauline Hanson right wing style of politics.

no need to "apologise"

It's S for f*** sakes you americanised brain f***s

I think that an apology is really a kind of lowest common denominator issue.

The fact is that the aboriginal people were collectively made to suffer an incredibly traumatic experience by white australia. By this I mean a systematic decimation of their cultural identity, from massacres of whole tribes, to intentional descecration and destruction of cultural heritage, to the organised attempts to de-aboriginalise entire generations of young people. And this was occuring right up until about 50 years ago, and all with a view to slotting aboriginal people seamlessly into our society.

That these attempts at assimilation were ultimately unsuccessful is quite plain. However, when we start talking about reconciliation between our two peoples, we find our history throwing up hurdles left right and centre. Obviously the aboriginal culture still suffers intense emotional trauma from what we did, and in many respects, an apology would do nothing to solve that. The thing about an apology is that, in order to apologise, we must actually recognise the wrong our nation did. And that I think is why an apology is so often touted as the first step in reconciliation, because it plainy requires that recognition from all white australians (like myself) Moreover, everyone understands this right down to the stubbie wearing, vb drinking, ute driving, Today Tonight watching bogan from deception bay.

Incidentally, you can see how effective it actually is as a device to encapsulate this step towards reconciliation, precisely in the concerted resistance among sections of the community. They argue that, "We don't need to apologise because what we did was for the aboriginal people's benefit. It wasn't wrong." Curiously, I think if those people calling for an apology were instead asking for something that encapsulated the same recognition of wrongdoing, but in a more nebulous way that wasn't so widely understood, I think that there would be little resistance to taking that step, precisely because the majority of people would not understand what it meant. The fact that it is so well understood that what is being asked for is a recognition of the wrongfullness of what we as a nation did, and the fact that we as a nation are so reluctant to give that is, I think, a great tragedy.

Obviously the aboriginal culture still suffers intense emotional trauma from what we did

What's this "we" hippie? I didn't have anything to do with this, nor did any of my family

Im just gonna say that I made a post about half as offensive as the above about september 11 and had my account suspended for a week.

there is a subtle difference between not wanting to say sorry and saying I hate them and they should die.

^ yeah, but you were talking about a sub species* called "Yanks" that trog loves and adores ;P

* please note that I am referring to Yanks as being from a sub species, not aboriginals

Nobody is demanding sympathy kat. They are entitled to tell us "You are morally obligated to properly and formally acknowledge the suffering of our people cause by your ancestors."

"expresses its deep and sincere regret that indigenous Australians suffered injustices under the practices of past generations and for the hurt and trauma that many indigenous people continue to feel as a consequence of those practices”, Jon Howard.

#edit: I think we should apologise for being overly politically correct. The stolen generation was a horrible heritage to pass on, but the continual act of social neutering is what is destroying them as a people. What makes it worse is that it is Aboriginals who proactively destroying the lives of other Aboriginals. Maybe they should apologise to themselves.


last edited by typo at 18:22:27 27/Feb/06

There have been wrongs on both sides of the fence. Both cultures should admit that, shake on it and sort something the hell out. Didn't their parents teach them to share?