The latest bee in my bonnet is the proposed new anti-terrorism laws. An interesting article discussing the various proposals can be found here.

I am offended by a government having a right to detain someone for 14 days without being able to get a court hearing. The whole notion of no imprisonment without trial was founded from the Magna Carta, a fundamental plank of democracy, and now the government wants to take that away from us.

I don't care if they are a terrorist or not. Get some evidence to make out a case before they can be imprisoned. Discuss.

firstpost

which is worst

someone in jail for 14 days
100s or 1000s dying

well I would hope they were going to imprison people because they did have evidence that they were going to commit an act of terrorism. IMHO someone buying copious ammounts of fertilizer who aren't farmers, people buying truckloads of nails when they're not in construction should be flagged and held for questioning but probably not for 2 weeks unless there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever. Or atleast monitored by surveilance.

If some guy goes to the shop & buys a bag of dynamic lifter & gets held for 2 weeks because he might be going to make a bomb out of it well then yeah that's pretty damn stupid.

I'd like to see the ACTUAL proposed legislation rather than a writeup like that on a site that is obviously against it, based on their comments. Is it available anywhere?

Here is your draft legislation. Kindly leaked to the public by the NT chief minister this weekend.

I don't think there is any secret to this bill as all the states have to support the legislation for it to be passed as law.

This media release also details the proposed legislation.

See notably Division 105 "Preventative detention orders".

last edited by infi at 18:53:36 18/Oct/05

Havent checked out the draft yet.

If div 105 is anything like this* >>> www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/ACTS/2003/03AC040.pdf f***ed up legislation which already exists you may as well move to f***ing China now because our rights are beginning to resemble those of the citizens of China.

Oh wait thats right we don't have a Bill of Rights do we?? LAWL??!!????

*takes off hat*
NAHNAH OUR GRACIOUS QUEEN

LALA OUR NOBLE QUEEN
NAHNAHNAH NAH

suck it down howard fanboys.


f***ed up linking too busy*









last edited by SCOGGEX at 19:42:41 18/Oct/05

well i don't ever plan to commit acts of terrorism, so it won't affect me.

well i don't ever plan to commit acts of terrorism, so it won't affect me.

Won't it?

What if a friend of yours just bought an acreage and was painting the huge garage so you popped into Bunnings to grab lots of fertiliser and mineral turps for him?

haha well i'd be able to proove it, on the spot.

i think there's stuff in your house, we're taking you to jail for a day while we search your house what aren't you telling us we're holding you for a week on this intelligence

yeah it doesn't happen that simply, i've had my house raided before, they don't take you to jail to raid your house

What if you happen to be a middle-eastern muslim doing the same?

bs mate read the "proposed" legislation then say it won't happen to you.

What if you happen to be a middle-eastern muslim doing the same?

haha thats just BL

Welcome to the Communist republic of Australia, were Laws are there to stop honest people enjoying themselves and to help criminals profit from the the honest community disguised as Buisnessmen lawyers and politicians.

What if you happen to be a middle-eastern muslim doing the same?

well durr, he'd obviously be arrested as it's clear he was going to use that stuff to make a bomb! haven't you watched channel 9 news lately!

seriously though, it's sad that when i initially read that article i thought to myself "well, i'm white so i'll be ok" and shrugged it off. Then i did a doubletake and realised how f***ed up that sounds. it will be a sad day indeed for civil liberties if this gets passed.

hahahh well fark it we will have no laws for bombings eh.

dam fools can get weed growers for excess power useage.

which is minor compared too blowing people up dont u think.

SCOGGEX hey move to china im happy here .

yeah yeah poor muslins eh , um who is blowing people up in the name of religon again?

i think we have cause to investagate(with in reason)

i cant see the aussie laws being too bad ,i like the briish ones ,u can be jailed for any breach of their law in the world as soon as u enter england.

As I read this bill it gets more and more interesting. Some salient points concerning the preventitive detention orders:
- the decision-maker concerning whether the order is granted must be a Federal Magistrate or a judge (however, the make the order in their personal capacity as an appointee of the Minister, and not as a judge).
- if you are detained you may not tell your family you have been detained as a suspected terrorist, you may only tell them you are safe and may not be in contact with them for a while.
- although the relevant considerations for making the order are outlined in the Bill, this decision is not reviewable under the Judicial Review Act, so therefore even if a decision exceeds the boundaries of the Act it cannot be reviewed by a court of law.

Some interesting sections

Basis for applying for, and making, preventative detention
orders
(1) An AFP member may apply for, and an issuing authority may make, a preventative detention order in relation to a person (the subject) only if subsection (2) or (4) applies.
(2) This subsection applies if the AFP member or the issuing authority,
as the case may be, is satisfied that:
(a) there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the subject:
(i) will engage in a terrorist act; or
(ii) possesses a thing that is connected with the preparation
for, or the engagement of a person in, a terrorist act; or
(iii) has done, or will do, an act in preparation for, or planning, a terrorist act; and
(b) making the order would substantially assist in preventing a terrorist act occurring.

Jurisdiction of State and Territory courts excluded
(1) A court of a State or Territory does not have jurisdiction in
proceedings for a remedy if:
(a) the remedy relates to:
(i) a preventative detention order; or
(ii) the treatment of a person in connection with such an
order; and
(b) the proceedings are commenced while the order is in force.
(2) This section has effect despite any other law of the Commonwealth
(whether passed or made before or after the commencement of this
section).

The more I read this Act the more of a bloody outrage I think it is. Basically you could be imprisoned for up to 48 hours (but the government wants this extended to 14 days per UK model) without any actual evidence and with no right to compensation afterwards. If this is introduced we will truly see Austraqlia become a police State like Nazi Germany of Stalinist Russia, Saddam's Iraq or modern China. There was no protection by the Courts there either. This Bill is like slagging a big lugie on our democractic right of no imprisonment until charged.

last edited by infi at 22:27:25 18/Oct/05

yeah yeah poor muslins eh , um who is blowing people up in the name of religon again?

Shut up.

Arguing with such a narrow minded, generalising idiot like you is pointless.




No really shutup.

"If this is introduced we will truly see Austraqlia become a police State like Nazi Germany of Stalinist Russia, Saddam's Iraq or modern China"


hahahahha their is way too many whingers in australia for that to happen.

possesses a thing that is connected with the preparation

lol at "a thing"

yeah the whinger will get imprisoned too as being sympathetic to a suspected terrorist or some BS. you won't beat the government if this gets in.

All these sorts of laws have already come through in the UK and are in action. No matter what any of you think, they'll all get implemented. It's the greater good, a few dickehads moaning about democracy, or possibly saving a few hundred peoples lives.

because obviously now we are at a greater terrorist threat than we ever where...

this reminds me of the simpsons eppisode where homers house gets attacked by a bear once, so he releases the bear squad and comes in with "so, my squad is doing a fine job, not a bear in site" (or something to that effect), lisa : "STFU NOOB, thats like saying this rock is keeping away lions" (or something to that effect)

we have had more terrorist attacks in australia before the war on terror than after it. This is plan and simple FEAR MONGORING.

There is no reason to allow such a drastic amount of time.

iron oxide (mixed with)
aluminium powder (is what they use to demolish buildings)
ammonia hydroxide (can be used to make ammonia nitrate which is the usefull product in fertalisers that makes things go boom)
sodium cloride (can be made into sodium, which when mixed with water tends to explode)
hydrogen peroxide (forget how, but is used in purefying some unstable home made chemical)
potassium parnagimate (can be mixed with sugar to make explosives in a pipe bomb)
bleach (can be boiled down to get explosive crystals)
sodium hydroxide (can be mixed with aluminium to make hydrogen)

iron oxide is rust
aluminium powder is aluminium shavings
ammonia hydroxide is a type of bleach
sodium cloride is table salt
hydrogen peroxide is used for cleaning wounds.
potassium panagamate is used in fish tanks to kill algie(sp?)
cleen pools
clears drains

point is, you could have bomb making materials in your home nad not even realise it.


not only that, i don't want to walk home with pool supplys and be worried about being carted away for 2 weeks, i don't have that kind of job security. hell. i won't be paid for thoes two weeks, and what if i have bills to pay?

yeah yeah poor muslins eh , um who is blowing people up in the name of religon again?

now that.. that has to be the dumbest post of the year! i don't remeber arguing religion with a muslem and him detonating in my face. perhaps i was just one of thoes lucky ones.. because every muslem person is a potential terrorist. just like every black person is a potential theif, and every asian is a potential mathamatical and scientific genious. and every white person is a good honest soul trying to make a living in this world full of hate full minorities.

we have had more terrorist attacks in australia

Name ONE terrorist attack IN australia we've had so far????

thats not my point, im not saying all muslins r terrorist im saying most terrorists r muslin. logically the 1st place to look. dont be so reactionary

s*** ive been checked for explosives at airport no big deal at all

Can I see the evidence to suggest there is no chance of an attack happening here? If not, just get over it and accept that its for the greater good. Too much freedom and this place will turn into america.

now that.. that has to be the dumbest post of the year!

I dont think you're in any danger of getting knocked out from the complete top ten

If my reading so far into that piece of proposed legislation is correct, then ‘the act’ only applies to the Australian Federal Police (AFP). Hence it severally limits the scope of application, that is only to federally governed areas, eg ACT, airports, (ports?), John Howard’s residence, etc…

So unless you are being investigated, and the State has granted/asked the Federal Police to assist in detaining you:
(a) a State police officer has no right under this law
(b) a Federal Police can not just be walking down the street, see you with some pool cleaner and detain you for 2 weeks

At least that is my impression per the constitution:

s119. The Commonwealth shall protect every State against invasion and, on the application of the Executive Government of the State, against domestic violence.

Government or Law majors, feel free to correct me if I am off the mark.

Now I can understand that the co-operation between State and Federal is probably a lot more seamless these days, however I don’t think that your rights are in danger of being completely violated, and you are certainly not going to be living in a police state – (started new thread – The rise of China)

Name ONE terrorist attack IN australia we've had so far????

TK, start your search at Wikipedia, Sydney Hilton Bombing ’78… I won’t comment as I know nothing about it….

Name ONE terrorist attack IN australia we've had so far????

The embassy bombing was technically in Australia :/

the AFP do heaps of s*** that state police aren't involved in, just as state police take care of matters that occur at federally goverened areas, eg ACT, airports, (ports?), John Howard’s residence, etc…

Hence it severally limits the scope of application,

wrong. i think you will find that any (suspected) terrorist act immediately triggers thwe AFP's jurisdiction.

another section of the Bill provides for multiple extensions of the prvenetitive maintenance order.so its not just the first 48 hour (or 14 day period if the Government get their way) you ahve to bhe worried about.

It is the continued imprisonment without trial for up to maybe even 6 weeks.

And Tuco how can you say America has too much freedom? They have had David Hicks locked up for like 4 years or something without charge. American's are just as bad as the Chinese.

last edited by infi at 07:55:40 19/Oct/05

White Wolf has a point on the "thing" comment,

Items readily available in your home to make detonators and explosives.

Things that can draw attention to you by authorities:
Comments by SCOGGX in this thread!
Any point of view spoken against the ideas of the Australian government
ether in public or to another individual.

Items in your possession that can bee deemed to manufacture Detonators are:
Matches
Lighter
Mobile phone
Clocks watch or timer
Garage door remote
Car alarm remote
Model car or plain remote
Pieces of wire
Technologies
Any thing in your possession that the Authority thinks could be used to make anything that might be used as a thing.

Explosives are produced by combining an Oxidising agent and a Fuel.
Items available in your home or workplace to create explosives:

Oxidising Agents:
Air
Oxygen
Nitrous Oxide
Hydrogen Peroxide
Sodium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Ammonium Nitrate
Chlorine
Sulphuric Acid
Nitric Acid

Fuel:
Sugar
Flour
Sawdust
plastics
pasta
Oil, Any
Gas, propane, butane, acetylene, cigarette lighter anything flammable
Petrol
paints
Anything that burns

I won’t start on chemical agents.

I can assure you your house is an explosive or chemical libratory waiting do be busted by authorities now all that is needed is legislation to enable them to detain you indefinitely for it.

* we already have an act were a police office can interpret any item in you possession as a deadly weapon and detain you under current law for 48 hours then you must be charged or released.

Also there is no mention of quantities or strength of substances.

I am not against the new legislation, what I am against is the right to tell someone what has happened to you and the ability to appeal the matter and the right to legal representation.

once you have been sleep deprived for prolonged periods of time and the s*** kicked out of you and constantly bombarded with questions you will agree to what ever you are told just to get some sleep or to be left alone.

The so called terrorists we are dealing with have a prehistoric ideology we do not have to revert to prehistoric behaviour.

For god’s sake man, we are civilised.

PS. I’m eagerly awaiting the release of the additional 87 photos and 4 Video tapes from Abu Ghraib US detention centre.
Just to see how the US humanly interrogate there prisoners.

Coz that is how your ass is going to be questioned when you get locked up for 7 years, and you can’t see or tell any one.

Enjoy.

you can say it won’t happen to me till the cows come home but tomorrow when your son, daughter or other friend or family get locked up or detained for some stupid matter, then it will be too late.

exactly decoy. i am not against appropriate anti-terrorism measures either, but when they start to interfere with fundamental democratic rights then we are just smashing a wallnut with a sledgehammer.

I also note that unease is mounting over terror laws within the Liberal party.

I have written to my local Federal MPs and Senators and I suggest you do the same if you would like to stay confident that you cannot be locked up and effectively "disappear" for up to 6 weeks courtesy your friendly government.

last edited by infi at 09:15:09 19/Oct/05

thats not my point, im not saying all muslins r terrorist im saying most terrorists r muslin. logically the 1st place to look. dont be so reactionary

take your own advice brah

Its quite easy to name a few terrorist attacks in Australia pre September 11 Tanaka. ie

Hilton Hotel Bombing
various bikie hits (s*** blowing up)
Martin Bryant (technically he could be classes as a terrorist)
Wade Frankum (dude who wasted a bunch of folks in Strathfield)

I mean, just about anything could be a terrorist attack. Anybody who agrees with these laws is a fool. The shoot to kill stuff is unfknbelievable.

If some dude in plain clothes flashed a tacky looking badge at you and said 'ASIO sir come with me' and you said 'Sure c*** and Im the queen of timbuktu' lawl from that moment on he can pull his weapon and shoot you stone cold dead. That s*** is insane.
That poor c*** in Britain who was nailed in the subway got shot 7 times in the head. 7 times is a lot of bullets in the head. His crime? 'ooh s*** my visas expired, whos this spooky c*** hassling me' BOOM HEADSHOT LIFE SENTENCE FOR YOU MUTHERf***ERRRRRR!!!!

Lets face the facts: some of the biggest 'terrorist' f***-ups have been former operatives in several of the worlds leading intelligence agencies. You are aware Bin Laden used to work for the CIA right?

Till the government can design a system which is immune from stupidity and corruption (nigh impossible) they shouldnt be allowed to introduce such absolute measures.

Giving these agencies a green light in unaccountability is just a fast-track to further terrorist acts.

That poor c*** in Britain who was nailed in the subway got shot 7 times in the head.

i was very sad when i read that in the news. what did that poor fella do to deserve that... :'(

I supose you could consider those things as terrorist attacks SCOGGEX,but i was really refering to stuff like 9/11 or the multiple bali bombings etc....terrorist attacks that can be link to some kind of orginazation - Al Quada (sp?) etc.I dont think Martin Bryant or Wade Frankum could be considered terrorists,true they caused fear and terror to people,but not in the sense of the term "Terrorist".
And point taken there fpot with embassies being technically on Australian soil,but again i was meaning actual Australia...like Sydney Harbour Bridge or the Opera House or Rev's place in Holland Park.

i was very sad when i read that in the news. what did that poor fella do to deserve that... :'(

Didnt he ignore armed police and run from them when told to stop? Remember that London had just had several subways and buses blown up and many people killed.If that happened hear (God forbid) and some cop told you to stop for what ever reason,you'd think common sense would prevail and you would stop.

Bin Laden used to work for the CIA right?

Wasnt he backed by the CIA like Sadam??

(sorry for the multiple post...just woke up)

unfortunately the reality is Tanaka, the new legislation wont suppose jack s***. It will stick you like a f***ing bug on a pin. Yes he did run from armed POH-LEECE but holy s*** 7 in the head is a pretty severe price to pay for bad judgement in the 'fight or flight' dept.

i was meaning actual Australia...like Sydney Harbour Bridge or the Opera House or Rev's place in Holland Park

Don't drag me into this you spastic dumb-head!

>8-(

ok i have gone and read most of the posts here, cbf reading the leglistlation, but from what i gather, if you have done nothing wrong or give them a reason to suspect you of doing something wrong, you like making a stupid joke about blowing something up, then you really dont need to worry about it.

they arent gonna arrest you for buying certain matts, unless you are acting suspicious, witch if your not doing anything wrong, shpuldnt be a problem.

Speaking of stupid laws, someone was telling me about an old brit law which stated that every able bodied man of a certain age was required by law to turn up to the town hall for archery/sword practice, anyone heard anything about that ?

i did a bit of that this morning till i leveled up.

I better stop cracking terrorists jokes on here otherwise i could see Trog, Strex and the rest of ASIO knocking on my door and plucking my 7 times in the head :S

These laws sure look pretty dodgy. Not much in the way of oversight/checks to make sure they're not abused.

And Governments/police forces don't have a particularly good track record when it comes to avoiding the abuse of powers...

Guys, you are trying to show someone why this legislation is bad when they pay homage to weapons of war:

GBU-24 Paveway III Primary function: 2,000-pound unpowered, low-level laser guided weapon.

yeah yeah poor muslins eh , um who is blowing people up in the name of religon again?

U.S.A and its evangalical leader, Pres. Bush. Why do you ask?

Lets face the facts: some of the biggest 'terrorist' f***-ups have been former operatives in several of the worlds leading intelligence agencies. You are aware Bin Laden used to work for the CIA right?

It is amazing that no matter how many times this is brought up, and other related bits of information, people just choose to ignor it and forget.

And Tuco how can you say America has too much freedom? They have had David Hicks locked up for like 4 years or something without charge. American's are just as bad as the Chinese.

Isnt the land that David hicks detained on technically not American soil, so American laws and stuff dont apply?


Anyway. The problem with laws such as those propposed, is that sure, they are all well and good now. However remember that the police, the government and any other organisation with humans in it are very open to corruption, it has been proven to happen many times before, and will happen many times again.

10,20,50 years down the track it could be a really, really bad law for whoever wants to abuse it.
Wouldnt it be great to imprison someone who is really getting in the way of your plans, without them able to say a thing and no compensation? Cool soon there will be a law that can do just that. This legislation as it stands is too open to corruption and abuse.

i didn't think he worked for the cia, i thought they trained him and his buddies to fight with the afganis against the soviets?

also david hicks is considered an enemy combatant which is why they can screw him around

last edited by Persay at 15:24:11 19/Oct/05

Didnt he ignore armed police and run from them when told to stop? Remember that London had just had several subways and buses blown up and many people killed.If that happened hear (God forbid) and some cop told you to stop for what ever reason,you'd think common sense would prevail and you would stop.

He had phoned his work earlier and said he was going to be late. He may not have heard the cops yelling, he may not have cared, its a s***ty situation any way you look at it.

Fun fact/Real life anecdote: 2 of my mates visited the UK recently. In the course of their exploring, they decided to take a breather at a tube station. They sat down on a bench for maybe 5 or 10 minutes, and soon enough two cops walked over to them armed with MP5's (cs lolz) and glared at them for a bit. Then they left.

Story over.

last edited by maxe at 15:59:40 19/Oct/05

David hicks well he was an enemy combatant and stuff. Tho I am not sure wether American is a Geneva signatory or not.

But Habib (the other aussie) was arrested in Pakistan, and moved to egypt before going to guantanimo. He's off in no mans land. As a non combatant, arrested in a non war zone in a country we have no relations with and held by America who we won't say boo too, on no charge. So the poor bastard doesn't even have the Geneva convention to help him.

here is a we can do any-"thing" piece here:

(3) A person commits an offence under subsection (1) or (2) even if:
(a) a terrorist act does not occur; or
(b) the thing is not connected with preparation for, the engagement of a person in, or assistance in a specific terrorist act; or
(c) the thing is connected with preparation for, the engagement of a person in, or assistance in more than one terrorist act.

so if you run a gun club and you unknowingly train a terrorist to shoot and he is connected to your club, you are automatically accused of assisting this person in a terrorist act.

likewise if you happen to work in a shop and supply him with a "thing" you are an accomplice.

the legislation is worded in such a way that hey if you saw the person accused of being a terrorist you are immediately associated to him and your premises, property and anything connected to you can be searched withheld etc indefinitely.

the legislation is not finalized yet ,the polys only get 3days to review the full legislation but, they have allowances i would say ,to adjust bits and pieces to keep people happy .uno make it look like its been changed but really they got most of what they wanted in really.

The thing you all need to understand is the majority of people involved in 9/11 were US citizens with good education, respectable jobs and homes, they were somebody’s teacher work partner friend and parents etc who in most cases had no knowledge that these people were about to commit a terrorist attack the scale of 9/11.

You could be associated to a fanatical extremist who is looking to better 9/11 here in Australia right now as we speak, and when this happens the federal Police will tear your life apart looking for clues and answers without a thought to wether you a prevented of going to work or how you are going to feed your family and even the repercussions of media plastering your face and name on every TV or newspaper over the world let alone Australia for the duration of there investigation, and when its all over you wont even get a sorry.

We need laws to prevent or at least reduce the threat of such an attack amongst others, but the legislation on this scale must be constructed by consulting the Australian public amongst other professionals not just passed behind our backs in a cowardly fashion by a government that has no idea what it is doing but clutching at straws to try to look like its doing something about a situation that is beyond its control to score points for the next election.

I think it's time the government learns that the Australian people want to have a say on matters that affect our lifestyle and freedom.

This is not the 18th century f*** the Queen she is a CAPITALIST PIG and a fat one at that, f*** America why do we keep licking there arses while they f*** us in ours, we are in the 21st century we don’t want the Labour or Liberal Party handing each other seats in government just so they can receive a f*** you Australia pension for the rest of there lives.

WE WANT A GOVERNMENT THAT IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THERE ACTIONS!

f*** I need a drink.


last edited by DeCoY at 18:12:12 19/Oct/05